Epson 4870 Resolution test

  • Thread starter Thread starter Mike Engles
  • Start date Start date
So...
If we are to believe you David, Epson are committing fraud by claiming the
scanner has an optical resolution of 4800 dpi when in fact it is somewhat
lower, is this what you are saying?


At the risk of incurring Kennedy's wrath, I'm with
David on this one. Without getting into the
definitions of this kind of resolution vs. that kind
of resolution, let me just say... resolution and
sharpness are two very different things.

There's a certain sharpness that's readily
apparent at 4000 dpi from a Nikon LS-8000,
that is clearly not there on the Epson 4870 --
from what I've seen, anyway (mostly a few
scan samples posted on the web, and a
few submitted for my scan samples site.)

Three or four years ago I went through a
similar round of discussions with Kennedy
after I purchased an Epson 1640. Kennedy
did his best to "educate" us all on the
technical matters but in the end I was not
quite convinced. Epson flatbeds seem
to me to be delivering high dpi ratings
but without commensurate sharpness.



rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
 
So what's your problem Ralf?
I got led on by Epson and it cost me money. OK so that was my mistake for
believing they actually had a clue about memory errors and Windows - they
didn't! I also believe I'm doing a public service by telling potential
buyers both sides of my story. Buy one of these scanners by all means but be
aware of the dorks at Epson if you need help.

Epson R&D told me too, the resolution of the scanner when I questioned them
....someone said they don't publicly state this... You say they now publish
even more adventurous specifications in Britain. There is no one here now I
care to believe about anything to do with the situation. I think you are all
(except one) off on a tangent of theory without even bothering to recognise
the end result is all that matters.

From where I stand as a user of scanners and a Photographer, all you are
doing Ralf, is fanning the fire so you can chase the fire truck and
entertain yourself or worse... You're behaving like a troll trying to create
an argument where none exists.

Which are you Ralf?
Troll or fire engine chaser? Either way you ought to find a life for
yourself.

I'll say the same to you as I did to David. All this engineering babble you
and a few other self styled experts are doing is just creating a smoke
screen to cloud what is the truth and what is not.

I really don't give two hoots what you have to say in 3rd party argument.
Unless you, or someone else can produce a standard measurement method, all
you are doing is hypothesizing and creating a string of fables which might
one day, become folk lore.

Douglas
---------------
 
David said:
I had some Kodak ProPhotoCD 1800 dpi scans (of 645 Provia 100F) done after I
bought my Epson 2450. They were worlds better than the Epson. I suspect the
4870 may be getting a bit closer to the Kodak, but I don't hear people being
as knocked out by the 4870 scans as I was by the Kodak.

The Epson makes 4800 measurements every inch, but it (it seems) measures an
area 1/2400 x 1/2400 instead of 1/4800 x 1/4800 of an inch. Kennedy claims
the technique is worthwhile. I don't see any proof of that.

Of course, even in my jaundiced view, it's at least a 2400 dpi scanner, and
assuming it's at all half decent as a 2400 dpi scanner, that should be
plenty to make MF fly. At 1/6 the price that I paid for my MF scanner. So
it's a great deal.




Actually, I agree with this, or at least I was hoping that this would be the
result, i.e. that despite the fuzzyness, the 4870 would be enough better
than the 2450 to make MF fly. When I was doing 645 with the 2450, I thought
that it wasn't good enough to match the D60, so I bought a Nikon 8000.
Hopefully a lot more people will be able to use MF now.


Nope. Don't even own any Canon products, yet. I'm hoping and praying that
they come out with something affordable and liftable that's as good as 645 +
the Nikon 8000.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan


Hello

I have to agree here. I don't believe the Epson 4870 is a 4800 DPI
scanner, but for the money it is a very good 2400 scanner and with
ICE,tremendous value. It will allow me to scan my 645 images.

Mike Engles
 
Hello
I have to agree here. I don't believe the Epson 4870 is a 4800 DPI
scanner, but for the money it is a very good 2400 scanner and with
ICE,tremendous value. It will allow me to scan my 645 images.

Mike Engles

Epson blundered here also. The 120 TPU was designed to accomodate 3 strips of 2
6x6 frames. It doesn't help 645, 6x7 or 6x9 users.
I would have preferred to see a TPU that accomodates 2 strips of 6x18. This
would allow for batch scanning of 8 645's, 4 6x7 or 6x9's, and for the odd
panoramic users, 2 6x17. And 6x6 users still get to scan 6 frames at once.
I hope that Doug or someone else comes out with such a TPU. Maybe it's possible
to modify the 4x5 TPU to do so.

Jeff.
 
Jeff said:
Epson blundered here also. The 120 TPU was designed to accomodate 3 strips of 2
6x6 frames. It doesn't help 645, 6x7 or 6x9 users.
I would have preferred to see a TPU that accomodates 2 strips of 6x18. This
would allow for batch scanning of 8 645's, 4 6x7 or 6x9's, and for the odd
panoramic users, 2 6x17. And 6x6 users still get to scan 6 frames at once.
I hope that Doug or someone else comes out with such a TPU. Maybe it's possible
to modify the 4x5 TPU to do so.

You should be able to jury rig your own film holders pretty easily. The
Epson software may not do automagic frame recognition, but you should be
able to select your frames manually in Vuescan.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
 
Mike Engles said:
I have to agree here. I don't believe the Epson 4870 is a 4800 DPI
scanner, but for the money it is a very good 2400 scanner and with
ICE,tremendous value. It will allow me to scan my 645 images.

You should also try Reala or your favorite similar quality negative
material. I found that the 2450 did better with color negative than with
reversal films.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
 
I agree entirely Jeff.
I got some 1.5mm, black polycarbonate sheeting from a plastics supplier and
cut my own 120 film holder which runs the length of the platen, 2 strips at
a time. Epsonscan allows me to select each frame by holding down the shift
key as I mark each one and then scan them all into Photoshop in one session.
I tried this with Vuescan but either the application does not allow for
batch scanning or the procedure to accomplish it is harder to find than this
feeble mind can fathom.
I might ask Ed Hamrick if I can't figure it out soon.

Douglas
 
David J. Littleboy said:
The Epson makes 4800 measurements every inch, but it (it seems) measures an
area 1/2400 x 1/2400 instead of 1/4800 x 1/4800 of an inch. Kennedy claims
the technique is worthwhile. I don't see any proof of that.
How much proof do you need - make the paper models that I described and
the benefit of the technique becomes obvious. How well that technique
is implemented by any particular manufacturer is another matter
entirely, but the technique is sound and there are many rather expensive
optical instruments orbiting the planet right now which successfully use
it.
 
Douglas said:
An Epson R&D Engineer told me on Tuesday of last week that the scanner has
"an optical resolution of 4800 dpi" which is backed up by published claims
of that figure. Now you say it's all lies. How could three countries with
laws which make fraudulent advertising a crime, permit such a claim?
Legalese, unfortunately: they "get away with it" because they are using
a terminology which has become common practice in their specific
industry to describe something, even though it is used in other fields
to describe something entirely different. :-(

The legal precedent for this confusion was set around 8 or 9 years ago
when, if my memory serves correctly, a court ruled against Umax for
describing their scanners as having 9600dpi resolution when, in fact,
the scanners only had 1200ppi sampling density and the 9600dpi was
interpolated. The solution which the industry adopted as a consequence
of that ruling was to refer to the actual sampling density as the
scanner's "optical resolution" - in the sense that this is the
mechanical resolution of the optics and transport mechanism - and refer
to higher values as "interpolated resolution".

Of course, in all other fields optical resolution means the resolution
of the optical system, including lens and sensor. IANAL, but I am led
to believe by them that since the scanner industry commonly use the term
to mean something different from other industries then anyone in the
scanner industry can use that as an acceptable legal defence.

As others will testify, I have been arguing against this mis-usage of
the terminology for years. Optical resolution means something very
specific and it certainly isn't sampling density!

So, when the Epson engineer referred you to published data supporting
the claimed optical resolution, did you actually see what he was
referring to and was it "optical resolution" in the wider accepted usage
or "optical resolution" in the scanner industry's mis-usage? ;-)
 
David J. Littleboy said:
Well, something's getting misused: Epson's having trouble getting 30 lp/mm
out of a system you seem to think capable of 97 lp/mm...
Have you read anything of what I wrote? Specifically these scanners
sample at a density at which exceeds the true optical resolution for a
specific reason - 97 lp/mm is the limit of the sampling density, not the
optical resolution. Furthermore, there are test frames posted in this
forum which indicate considerably greater optical resolution than the
30lp/mm you are suggesting.
 
I always find you discussions very informative, and this was no
exception. I believe I followed your discussion of grids and square
waves below. But now I'm confused.

I've made several partial attempts at mastering digital sampling theory,
with only partial success. I thought I had the basics, but now I'm not
sure. How does the Nyquist limit come into what you say? The Epson
2450 provides you with 2400 samples per inch, or about 94 samples per
mm. If I understand Nyquist properly, half that or 47 lp/mm is the
highest spatial frequency that it can resolve, other factors aside. I
do understand that higher frequencies can be detected as aliasing, but
I'm now confused from you discussion about just what the Nyquist limit
tells you. Could you elaborate further?
 
Kennedy said:
Have you read anything of what I wrote? Specifically these scanners
sample at a density at which exceeds the true optical resolution for a
specific reason - 97 lp/mm is the limit of the sampling density, not the
optical resolution.

If we are talking about the Epson 4870, it provides 4800 samples per
inch in the horizontal direction. (I understand it does it with a
staggered array, but what you get at the end is 4800 samples per inch.)
That is about 189 samples per mm. The Nyquist limit then should be
about 94.5 lp/mm. Where does the 97 lp/mm figure come from?
Furthermore, there are test frames posted in this
forum which indicate considerably greater optical resolution than the
30lp/mm you are suggesting.

Which are those? I haven't seen anything that appears to go
consideraly beyond about 35 lp/mm when examined carefully. One has to
be careful not just to read the numbers in the test patterns. Without
knowing the scaling, those numbers are meaningless. However, as I've
posted elsewhere, you can actually count the line pairs in a given
number of pixel samples and easily calculate lp/mm from that, if you
know the sample density.
 
Leonard Evens said:
If we are talking about the Epson 4870, it provides 4800 samples per
inch in the horizontal direction. (I understand it does it with a
staggered array, but what you get at the end is 4800 samples per inch.)
That is about 189 samples per mm. The Nyquist limit then should be
about 94.5 lp/mm. Where does the 97 lp/mm figure come from?
David's miss-quote of the 94.5lp/mm in my previous quote.
Which are those?

Mike Engles' posts clearly show resolved information (admittedly in the
CCD axis, but that is the one that David is complaining about) which is
40lp/mm.
 
Leonard Evens said:
I always find you discussions very informative, and this was no
exception. I believe I followed your discussion of grids and square
waves below. But now I'm confused.

I've made several partial attempts at mastering digital sampling theory,
with only partial success. I thought I had the basics, but now I'm not
sure. How does the Nyquist limit come into what you say? The Epson
2450 provides you with 2400 samples per inch, or about 94 samples per
mm. If I understand Nyquist properly, half that or 47 lp/mm is the
highest spatial frequency that it can resolve, other factors aside.

If the scanner optics allow it, 47 lp/mm (or rather cycles/mm) can be
*reliably* resolved, but if perfectly alligned with the sensor array, it can
resolve up to 94 cy/mm. Perfect alignment is practically impossible, so
aliasing results, again, if the optics allow sufficient high frequency
detail to reach the sensor.

On my 2450 I can reach 30 lp/mm for the entire image chain (camera lens +
film + scanner lens and sensor) on Elite film and Sensia film (a little
higher on Provia but I don't have the numbers at hand), and with a slanted
edge measurement (only the scanner lens and sensor) I get an average of 34
cy/mm at 10% modulation. This shows that the interaction of multiple MTFs
can reduce the actual resolution, and the weakest link seems to be the
scanner lens.

Bart
 
Leonard Evens said:
I always find you discussions very informative, and this was no
exception. I believe I followed your discussion of grids and square
waves below. But now I'm confused.

I've made several partial attempts at mastering digital sampling
theory, with only partial success. I thought I had the basics, but
now I'm not sure. How does the Nyquist limit come into what you say?
The Epson 2450 provides you with 2400 samples per inch, or about 94
samples per mm. If I understand Nyquist properly, half that or 47
lp/mm is the highest spatial frequency that it can resolve, other
factors aside. I do understand that higher frequencies can be detected
as aliasing, but I'm now confused from you discussion about just what
the Nyquist limit tells you. Could you elaborate further?
More or less exactly as you described it in your question Leonard, so
you probably aren't as confused as you fear you may be. ;-)

2400samples per inch gives a Nyquist limit of 1200cy/in or, as you
convert it, 47lp/mm. That is the hard limit that the scanner can
unambiguously resolve - it only says what the maximum optical resolution
of the scanner can be. However, the resolution of each element in the
CCD is much higher than this, which is why the CCD as a whole will
produce a response to higher spatial frequencies. That response is,
however, aliased by the sampling density around the Nyquist limit. The
Nyquist limit is simply where the onset of aliasing occurs - if higher
spatial frequencies get into the sampling system then they will not be
reproduced faithfully.

The spatial frequency response (ie. effectively the MTF) of a
rectangular pixel is simply sin(pi.a.f)/(pi.a.f) where a is the width of
the pixel, f is the spatial frequency it is viewing and pi is the
obvious greek constant. This is the amplitude of the output that the
single pixel would produce if it was scanned at infinitely fine steps
across the test pattern of spatial frequency f. Similar to taking one
2cm square in my example and plotting the output it would produce as it
was scanned smoothly accross each of the test patterns in my previous
example.

One way of considering how this relates to a CCD, is that the elements
only exist at certain positions, not at every infinitesimal position
scanned across it, so the MTF is effectively sampled by a series of
delta functions, one at each real position of an element in the CCD,
which is where the familiar effects of sampling, such as Nyquist limits
etc. come in. By considering the CCD this way it is easy to see that
the resolution of the CCD and the Nyquist limits of the sampling density
are completely separable - they can be related to each other but they
need not be so.

For example, if the CCD has 100% fill factor then the sampling pitch, p,
is exactly the same as the element width, a. Consequently, at the
Nyquist limit of f=1/2p = 1/2a, the MTF of an ideal CCD is
sin(pi/2)/(pi/2), or 63.66%. However, if the CCD has only 64% fill
factor elements by area then a=0.8p, and the MTF at the Nyquist limit is
now sin(0.4pi)/0.4pi), which is 75.7%. Similarly, if the CCD is a
staggered 2 row device, with the 64% fill factor by area, then the MTF
at the Nyquist limit would be sin(0.8pi)/(0.8pi), which is 23.4%.

The Nyquist limit says nothing about the MTF of the sensor at the onset
of aliasing. As you can see from the above paragraph, a simple linear,
high fill factor CCD will have a very significant MTF at this limit,
meaning that the resolution is artificially truncated, resulting in all
of the familiar aliasing and jagged artefacts.
 
Bart van der Wolf said:
If the scanner optics allow it, 47 lp/mm (or rather cycles/mm) can be
*reliably* resolved, but if perfectly alligned with the sensor array, it can
resolve up to 94 cy/mm.

No, it can never "resolve" out to 94cy/mm. It can produce a response
out to 94cy/mm but that will be aliased by the sampled structure and is
therefore, classically, unresolved irrespective of alignment. A 94cy/mm
target sampled with a 94sample/mm system will produce only a uniform,
zero contrast, level output, the level of which will depend on the
alignment. There is no "perfect alignment" in this case. A 47cy/mm
target sampled by a 94sample/mm system will have one alignment which
produces uniform zero contrast output and another alignment which
produces maximum contrast. Which of these you consider to be *the*
perfect alignment is a moot point. ;-)
 
Kennedy McEwen said:
No, it can never "resolve" out to 94cy/mm.

I sense that is more a point of semantics than disagreement with what I
wrote ;-)

As per ISO 16067-2 definition:
resolution: a measure of the ability of a digital image capture system, or a
component of a digital image capture system, to depict picture detail.

I made a slanted edge measurement of my Epson 2450 scanner (2400 staggered
ppi or 94.5 cycles/mm theoretical limiting sample resolution. The SFR
modulation at Nyquist (47.2cy/mm) is a mere 2.5% and doesn't drop to zero
until 60 cycles/mm. So the scanner does resolve above Nyquist, but it's not
very meaningful. Aliasing is practically non-existent due to the
insignificant modulation above Nyquist, which I contribute mainly to the
lens.

A similar test with my DSE5400 shows a (low) non-zero modulation right up to
2x Nyquist (212.6 cy/mm) where it goes zero. The lens seems to be anything
but the weakest link in that equation. The use of the Grain Dissolver
reduces the higher frequency modulation, but it still 'resolves and aliases'
up to the limit.
It can produce a response out to 94cy/mm but that will be aliased
by the sampled structure and is therefore, classically, unresolved
irrespective of alignment.

I'm not sure what you mean by "classically", but it sounds a bit like
semantics ;-)
We do agree about aliasing also being added from frequencies above Nyquist.

One could say that aliasing is also picture detail, but false. Spatial
frequencies above Nyquist just are likely to have the 'wrong' modulation
most of the time.
If a point feature is perfectly aligned (same shape and orientation) with
the photosite's sensitive area and has sufficient luminance contrast to
neighboring features, it will be faithfully resolved. However (!), that will
in practice never happen, mainly due to lens aberrations and non-perfect
alignment. And as soon as it is not perfectly aligned, aliasing kicks in.

Bart
 
Aliasing is practically non-existent due to the
insignificant modulation above Nyquist, which I contribute mainly to the
lens.
If a point feature is perfectly aligned (same shape and orientation) with
the photosite's sensitive area and has sufficient luminance contrast to
neighboring features, it will be faithfully resolved.


No dispute Bart, but in the staggered HyperCCD case, your hypothetical
perfect pixel will be blurred over 3x3 pixels due to sample overlap. Two
such hypothetical perfect pixels must be spaced on at least five pixel
spacing to resolve the points with one pixels separation (5 instead of 3).
This is a sharpness issue too. So my only point is just to wonder why you say
"mainly the lens"? (one is reminded of Occam's Razor here <g>)

How do you differentiate the two factors? Are you seeing even worse results
that would be otherwise explained?
 
Douglas MacDonald said:
So Mike... What leads you to the conclusion that the scanner is
interpolating over 2000 dpi? According to the Epson R&D, it has Optical
resolution of 4800 dpi.

Surely you meant according to Epson's marketing dept.
While its input resolution is 4800 its real resolution is only 1650dpi.
 
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