Endless lists of software. in a.c.f

[Max Quordlepleen]

Blinky, may I have a look at that filter? I think I will try
something similar in Xnews. Fa'afetai.

Never mind sharkù, I have found bodhisattva elsewhere.

 

[Bob Adkins]

|Right. It's more like a flooding. A little flooding of on-topic info fine.
|Some day, someone will find a great program in your posts and will be
|thankful.

I read all your posts. What got your panties in a bunch?

Bob

 

[Ted K]

I won't mention names or pseudonyms but I've noticed that there are
people here who post sheer endless numbers of what lookes like
recommendations of programs. However, as it turns out they have not
used most of them, not even downloaded the software or at least
visited homesites. If they had done so they would not heve mention
some of them. These people have absolutely nothing to say about the
software they list here.

Anyone can post endless numbers of programs he/she has not used,
simply by copying and pasting from websites, but why do that? Simply
by chance some will even be OK, or, in some instances, even very good.
But what's the point when we are not informed about home sites,
download sizes and user's (i.e. the poster's) experiences?

I suggest these people restrict themselves to recommendations of
programs they have actually used and know something about.
Anyone can google for freeware sound editors, file managers, clipboard
extenders, text editors etc. or visit freeware sites (with long
lists!). Postings from people we actually use the programs they
recommend are useful, particularly when the say why they prefer them
to other other similar software. Posting the names of endless numbers
of programs which were never even looked at by the poster is useless.

Sorry folks, had to post this.

Steve

This is bocoming boring. From my viewpoint, posting a link for a
program that has not been downloaded and evaluated is about as useful
as teats on a bull. For the past couple of weeks I have been saving
Tramp msgs for future checking out but I am now coming around to
realizing that this is a waste of time. I'll never get around to
checking out 99% of what I've saved.

Why doesn't Tramp just set up a freeware web page and make life simple
for simple folks like me? A classified source would be so much more
useful.

When I need a particular utility I will either search for it on the
several excellent freeware sites that are noted here on a regular
basis, or use Google, if need be.

TRAMP - noun: a foot traveler; someone who goes on an extended walk
(for pleasure)

The walk is much to extended, the pleasure is the poster's, for me the
pleasure is gone. I be gone.

My thought for the day:

Even a blind man can see that which ignorant men and fools cannot.

Ted K

 

[Roger Johansson]

This is bocoming boring. From my viewpoint, posting a link for a
program that has not been downloaded and evaluated is about as useful
as teats on a bull. For the past couple of weeks I have been saving
Tramp msgs for future checking out but I am now coming around to
realizing that this is a waste of time. I'll never get around to
checking out 99% of what I've saved.

I agree with both Steve and Ted, and I want to add that for modem
connected readers like myself it takes a lot of time to fetch all
these messages, and it doesn't help to filter them, the news program
still fetches them and then marks them read.

I would prefer one long message as it is faster to download, and if it
is long enough it will not even be downloaded, as my message size
limit would prevent downloading.

Why doesn't Tramp just set up a freeware web page and make life simple
for simple folks like me?

Exactly. For people who want loads of links to check out it can not be
too much work to go to his web site and get his latest lists.
Tramp could announce new lists here with a direct link to the latest
list. But maybe that wouldn't be such a booster for his ego.

I would like to see recommendations in a.c.f about programs which have
been tried and tested, and found to offer something valuable compared
to what was earlier available, not long lists of untried links, or
even worse, hundreds of single messages about such untried and
untested programs.

The current discussion about cookies and colored links has shown what
level of general computer competence Tramp is on, and that makes his
links even less interesting.

 

[Lance M Hillier, Sr]

Tramp gives you an idea of the software available to you - he's checked a
lot of it himself, or he has been scouring sites that host freeware, and
edits/posts those type of freeware available to you. You wonder what's out
there, well he's checked a lot of the sites through.

Now imagine it's left up to you to got to places on your own.... he's not
saying don't he's saying why try sifting on your own, he's done a lot of
this on your belhalf.... so, kudos, Tramp....

Otherwise, check out SonofSpy at:
http://www.sover.net/~whoi/Index.html for 1,800+ prechecked programs in all
sorts of freeware venues, or call upon the Freeware Listings Book Monthly
versions at www.freewarearena.org, download your copy, then check the DOZENS
of freeware sites on your own, bookmark/save Favorites on your own,
investigate later at your leisure, and then come back around to thanking
Tramp for tramping through all those sites, and post the highlights he runs
across that maybe we've missed in our leisure time....

Choice is yours, but for the millions of dollars worth of software out there
written free for our use, I'm certainly happy I've found a few trustworthy
editors.... and a NG dedicated to saving us millions of dollars in software,
so we can put the savings for us software junkies where it really
belongs.... (into that 7.7GHZ P17 w/72TB HD and 512MG Video, with a Cable
accelerated connection....

And in the meantime, develop your own website w/ Best of Freeware, and let
us in on it....
Thanks and enjoy your day

 

[Blinky the Shark]

so we can put the savings for us software junkies where it really
belongs.... (into that 7.7GHZ P17 w/72TB HD and 512MG Video, with a Cable
accelerated connection....

I just bought that very rig. I'm loving it!

Okay, I'll admit I popped for more video RAM.

 

[BillR]

"This is becoming boring." -- No, it IS boring.

"For modem connected readers like myself it takes a lot of time to
fetch all
these messages, and it doesn't help to filter them, the news program
still fetches them and then marks them read." -- Amen

"I would prefer one long message as it is faster to download." --
Multiple messages take longer/are harder to read. For example, most
of the screen is devoted to repetative information.

The only real argument for multiple messages is that threads are
easier to follow if each is about one program or other theme. While
true, responsibility for deciding whether a follow-up message belongs
under a list (e.g., several broken links) or should be a new
thread/appended to an existing thread, is really the responsibility of
the person who initiates a reply -- or the more experienced or
thoughtful person who replies.

I would prefer a few "mistaken" complex threads than dozens of
separate unevaluated link messages. Individual messages about a
program that has not been evalueated should be a response to a
question/request.

BillR

 

[Roger Johansson]

"For modem connected readers like myself it takes a lot of time to
fetch all
these messages, and it doesn't help to filter them, the news program
still fetches them and then marks them read." -- Amen

"I would prefer one long message as it is faster to download." --
Multiple messages take longer/are harder to read. For example, most
of the screen is devoted to repetative information.

I hope Tramp can take this in a positive way.
I don't think we want to put him down.
His work is undoubtly valuable, but I think the presentation needs
some thought.

There are readers here who like news about tested and tried freeware
programs, which are really valuable, with information about its
features, size, a download link and maybe a link to the homepage for
the program. Programs which somebody really want to recommend.

Others like lists of unknown programs, so they can look them up,
download them, try them out to see if they are valuable in any way.

These readers are ready to use their browsers to check up links,
download programs they don't know much about, so they are probably
also ready to download the link list itself to begin with.

If people like Tramp would publish a link to their latest lists once a
day or so they could start trying out all those programs, and such a
short message per day wouldn't disturb others who want to read about
programs which are tried and have been found to be very valuable.

In that way the main part of the research work would not happen in the
newsgroup, it would not disturb the postings about programs which have
been proven to be valuable and which are checked to really be freeware
and somebody really want to recommend.

The researchers would still get the link lists through the newsgroup,
but would have to fetch the lists by themselves instead of seeing the
whole lists posted as messages. They would get the links to the lists
instead.

Wouldn't that be a good way to solve the problem?

 

[=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=]

(e-mail address removed) (BillR) wrote in

"This is becoming boring." -- No, it IS boring.

By all means, stop reading it then.

"For modem connected readers like myself it takes a lot of time to
fetch all these messages, and it doesn't help to filter them, the
news program still fetches them and then marks them read."
-- Amen

By "the news program", I suppose the person you're quoting meant Forte
Agent 1.92/32.572, the program he was using. Most other news programs
make it possible to avoid DLing the messages. As long as you're using
Google Groups, you won't run into that particular bandwidth problem,
since Google won't deliver the message until you click on it.

"I would prefer one long message as it is faster to download." --
Multiple messages take longer/are harder to read. For example,
most of the screen is devoted to repetative information.

Tramp has already decided to make a single comprehensive post in
addition to the individual ones. Download that one rather than the
individual ones you find difficult.

The only real argument for multiple messages is that threads are
easier to follow if each is about one program or other theme.

Also makes it easier to pick out the OPs worth reading. I don't read
the ones that don't look interesting to me, nor do I read the
comprehensive post. If you were somehow to convince him to stop making
the individual posts, I'd have to DL the big one then scroll through it
to get past the sections of apps that don't interest me and apps I've
already seen. That would be more downloading and more time wasted for
me, not less.

While true, responsibility for deciding whether a follow-up
message belongs under a list (e.g., several broken links) or
should be a new thread/appended to an existing thread, is really
the responsibility of the person who initiates a reply -- or the
more experienced or thoughtful person who replies.

The newbie who innocently follows up to a comprehensive catch-all post
and whose question may well be ignored by those who are best suited to
answer doesn't know that.

I would prefer a few "mistaken" complex threads than dozens of
separate unevaluated link messages. Individual messages about a
program that has not been evalueated should be a response to a
question/request.

Grammar aside, it looks like we disagree.

 

[Roger Johansson]

I got this newsgroup on dialup for years and it was NEVER a problem
downloading the messages. If it took too long I simply went off and
did something else eg. had breakfast.

I guess you do not pay your phone bills per minute as we do in my
country.
It gets expensive to do it that way.

And your suggestion to download only headers first, mark the headers I
want to read, call back and download the bodies for those, no it is
even more expensive and tedious, not a realistic option.

There is a charge for each phone call, on top of the per minute
charge. Phone bills work like that in most of the world.

I have heard that in USA some people have free phone calls, only a
monthly charge, or something like that. It doesn't work like that in
most other countries.

Anyway we cannot base our policies on american conditions, this is an
international newsgroup. More and more people from other countries are
joining, and within a few years the americans will be a minority.

A few more years and they will be a an unsignificantly small minority.

 

[Anne]

First it sounded something like

I agree with both Steve and Ted, and I want to add that for modem
connected readers like myself it takes a lot of time to fetch all
these messages,

I have a modem, too, and I can't understand what's the difference if
Tramp posts 50 freeware findings, or if 50 people post one finding
each? You'd still have to download those messages. And plain text
messages download pretty fast.

and it doesn't help to filter them, the news program still fetches
them and then marks them read.

Try Hamster.
http://home.knuut.de/tgl/

I would prefer one long message as it is faster to download, and
if it is long enough it will not even be downloaded, as my message
size limit would prevent downloading.

So, you don't want to read many individual messages, but not one big
one either? The purpose of this NG is freeware. People find freeware
and post their findings here. Should we all refrain from posting,
because some hate downloading too many messages? How can there be too
many on-topic postings? What's the limit?

For the past couple of weeks I have been saving Tramp msgs for future
checking out but I am now coming around to realizing that this is a
waste of time. I'll never get around to checking out 99% of what
I've saved.

And Tramp should stop posting because of that?


I'd say that navigating to a web page is much more complicated than
downloading newsgroup messages automatically.

Exactly. For people who want loads of links to check out it can
not be too much work to go to his web site and get his latest
lists. Tramp could announce new lists here with a direct link to
the latest list.

But wouldn't it cost modem users a lot of *money* to go to his site and
read the list there?

But maybe that wouldn't be such a booster for his ego.

Maybe some people are envious, because one person has found all that
freeware? That's the only way I can interpret this incredible
discussion.

 

[Roger Johansson]

I have a modem, too, and I can't understand what's the difference if
Tramp posts 50 freeware findings, or if 50 people post one finding
each? You'd still have to download those messages. And plain text
messages download pretty fast.

You don't seem to understand the difference between postings about
lists of untried, untested, unchecked programs, which may or may not
be valuable, may or may not really be freeware, and recommendations
from people who have found really good programs, which they have
checked that they really are freeware and have features which make
them better in some ways than other programs.

That is what this is about.

The people who like lists of untested programs which may be real
freeware are ready to use such links to download such programs, test
them, check their freeware status, find out if they are valuable,
because they like to find new freeware.

These people would have just as much use for a link to a list to new
freeware links, than to have the full list published in the newsgroup,
as they are prepared to use their browsers to go to a programs web
site, read about it, download it, test it, etc..

Others want recommendations about programs which have been tested,
checked that they really are freeware, programs which somebody really
have found to be valuable.
These readers only download programs they have read details and good
comments about, programs which one or more people can recommend.

These readers have no use for long lists of links to fairly unknown
new programs, as they cannot afford or do not have time to test
unknown programs.

These two groups are both present in this newsgroup, and the question
is how to co-exist in the best possible way.

I, and others, think it would be a good idea to publish
recommendations and descriptions of really good freeware programs in
the newsgroup. And links to lists of unknown programs which those who
have time and can afford it may want to explore.

That could be a good compromise between the interests of the two
groups, the explorers and the people who want descriptions and
download links to tested valuable programs.

 

[Roger Johansson]

I have a modem, too, and I can't understand what's the difference if
Tramp posts 50 freeware findings, or if 50 people post one finding
each? You'd still have to download those messages. And plain text
messages download pretty fast.

Maybe it is easier to understand if I take two examples:

Yesterday I wrote a detailed description about the freeware language
RapidQ, which I happen to know a lot about and really want to
recommend, I gave links to usergroups and download sites, etc..

The other example could be if I dig up a thousand links to swedish
freeware programs which I know little about. Some may be in english,
other only in swedish, some may be real freeware, other may be
timelimited or crippled versions, some may be very valuable and some
may be useless.

Would you like me to post a thousand messages with links to these
programs in a.c.f, or ten very long messages with links to these
programs, or would you prefer that I put these links on my web site
and post a message about it where I give a link to the list on my web
site so those who are interested can look them up, download the ones
that sounds interesting, and try them out?

I would definitely prefer if people who have such lists publish just a
link to the list instead of a thousand messages, one for each link.

 

[Steve H]

I guess you do not pay your phone bills per minute as we do in my
country.
It gets expensive to do it that way.

Well, this morning's download on my news sever came to approx 300
headers.
Downloading 300 headers on a ( slow ) dialup connection takes much
less than a minute.
Had I downloaded 300 bodies too it would have taken a great deal
longer.
I really can't see why anyone would seriously want to download EVERY
body... I mean... what happens when a spammer hits, d'you download all
that too???

And your suggestion to download only headers first, mark the headers I
want to read, call back and download the bodies for those, no it is
even more expensive and tedious, not a realistic option.

Works out cheaper for me.
Dial up, download the headers for all the groups I read, download
email at same time. Log off.
Browse the groups, marking each header I wish to download the body to
- a very easy job using the N and M hotkeys ( Forte Agent ) with one
hand and holding a cuppa in the other.
I see you use Forte Agent too.

Check emails, respond as necessary.

Dial up, download bodies, upload email, log off.

Reading is made easier too, again using a hotkey to skip to the next
unread message. By downloading all the header you have to either read
them all, or faff about picking out the ones you want to read...which
takes longer without the hotkey trick.

There is a charge for each phone call, on top of the per minute
charge. Phone bills work like that in most of the world.

Even when I was on pay per minute, with a minimum charge for four
minutes, I always managed to complete downloading the headers then the
bodies within two four minute sessions - and that's browsing upwards
of 40 groups.

I have heard that in USA some people have free phone calls, only a
monthly charge, or something like that. It doesn't work like that in
most other countries.

Here in the UK we now have several 'anytime' suppliers which provide
'unlimited' dialup connection for a flat fee.
Lobby your government/telco minister if you do not have this in your
country.

Anyway we cannot base our policies on american conditions, this is an
international newsgroup. More and more people from other countries are
joining, and within a few years the americans will be a minority.

I rather think it's based on the way most people access the newsgroups
- why else would such a popular newsreader such as Forte Agent include
a specific 'offline' browsing mode?

A few more years and they will be a an unsignificantly small minority.

Don't wait up.

Regards,

 

[SINNER]

Roger Johansson Wrote in alt.comp.freeware, on Tue, 29 Jul 2003 05:47:03
+0200:

I guess you do not pay your phone bills per minute as we do in my
country. It gets expensive to do it that way.

And your suggestion to download only headers first, mark the headers I
want to read, call back and download the bodies for those, no it is
even more expensive and tedious, not a realistic option.

You are ALREADY doing that! Agent only downloads bodies when you click
on the header. Your using an offline reader, why not take advatage of
the options. Not a realistic option!!!! most people use agent
specifically becasue it CAN do that. Claiming that its more expensive is
simply not true. It may take a little more time, but as I said, You only
DL bodies of the articles you want today, and if thats nont the case,
you need to adjust your settings in agent.

There is a charge for each phone call, on top of the per minute
charge. Phone bills work like that in most of the world.

I have heard that in USA some people have free phone calls, only a
monthly charge, or something like that. It doesn't work like that in
most other countries.

Only if thats the type of plan you buy, its not done like this all over,
I pay per phone call outside a certain area. for about $50 a month you
can get unlimited long distance within the states and unlimited local
calling.

Anyway we cannot base our policies on american conditions, this is an
international newsgroup. More and more people from other countries are
joining, and within a few years the americans will be a minority.

A few more years and they will be a an unsignificantly small minority.

I doubt that, nice attempt at a flame though. Your argument is not
valid, the header DL is far from expensive and the daily posts to this
group are not that heavy, would you like to see the posting stats for
the group?

 

[REMbranded]

I guess you do not pay your phone bills per minute as we do in my
country. It gets expensive to do it that way.

And your suggestion to download only headers first, mark the headers I
want to read, call back and download the bodies for those, no it is
even more expensive and tedious, not a realistic option.

There is a charge for each phone call, on top of the per minute
charge. Phone bills work like that in most of the world.

I have heard that in USA some people have free phone calls, only a
monthly charge, or something like that. It doesn't work like that in
most other countries.

Anyway we cannot base our policies on american conditions, this is an
international newsgroup. More and more people from other countries are
joining, and within a few years the americans will be a minority.

Operation Desert Thread?

A minority as compared to all other countries? That doesn't seem quite
fair.

A few more years and they will be a an unsignificantly small minority.

International it is, but we're not going to limit our interests here
because of telecommunications problems in Africa. Right? That is, the
world outside Africa.

Filtering would not be a tedious experience if the posts were in a
single message.

 

[Roger Johansson]

I really can't see why anyone would seriously want to download EVERY
body... I mean... what happens when a spammer hits, d'you download all
that too???

I read maybe two thousand messages each day, I don't look at the
headers, because they seldom say much about the quality or even
content of the message body.

I have a limit at 400 lines, so longer messages don't get downloaded.
Spammers are just ignored, takes 1 tenth of a second to see that it is
crap.

The most irritating messages are those which start like this:

This morning I woke up, put my clothes on. I saw the cat had
disappeared.
I opened the newspaper, just to see N.N write:

Such intro lines take a few seconds to realize that it is an idiot who
has set his newsprog to use introductions like that instead of the
simple:

Works out cheaper for me.
Dial up, download the headers for all the groups I read, download
email at same time. Log off.
Browse the groups, marking each header I wish to download the body to
- a very easy job using the N and M hotkeys ( Forte Agent ) with one
hand and holding a cuppa in the other.

Dial up, download bodies, upload email, log off.

That means you have to check out each message twice and waste a lot of
time marking messages, and dialup twice.

If you see some interesting header you have to wait until you have
downloaded it to see the content.

 

[Roger Johansson]

You are ALREADY doing that! Agent only downloads bodies when you click
on the header.

You don't know what you are talking about.
Of course I have set Agent to download the bodies too, so I can hang
up the phone line and read the messages off line.

Your using an offline reader, why not take advatage of
the options.

You don't even know the options available.
For offline reading you can make Agent, and most other newsreaders,
download both headers and bodies.

I doubt that,

Do you doubt that billions of people will get access to internet
within a few years?

Are you aware of the fact that Europe, India and China together have a
population of 3 billion people?
That is more than ten times the population of USA.

Of course usenet will be dominated by europeans, indians and chinese
as soon as they get access to internet.
Most of them will know enough english to handle programs and
communicate in newsgroups.
Internet is being built out at a very rapid rate in these regions as
we speak.
10 years from now the situation in usenet will be completely
different.

the header DL is far from expensive and the daily posts to this
group are not that heavy, would you like to see the posting stats for
the group?

This is one of the high volume newsgroup i read, and it got even
bigger when Tramp started posting lots of messages every day.

I only download programs once or twice a week, and only after I have
seen descriptions and recommendations from people who really know the
program.

Others may want to try out loads of new programs each day, but then
they could also follow links to lists of such untried programs.

 

[=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=]

You don't seem to understand the difference between postings about
lists of untried, untested, unchecked programs, which may or may
not be valuable, may or may not really be freeware, and
recommendations from people who have found really good programs,
which they have checked that they really are freeware and have
features which make them better in some ways than other programs.

That is what this is about.

No one has misunderstood the difference between the posts you like
and the posts you don't.

The people who like lists of untested programs which may be real
freeware are ready to use such links to download such programs,
test them, check their freeware status, find out if they are
valuable, because they like to find new freeware.

These people would have just as much use for a link to a list to
new freeware links, than to have the full list published in the
newsgroup, as they are prepared to use their browsers to go to a
programs web site, read about it, download it, test it, etc..

"These people" have clearly expressed our desire to have the the
posts made to the newsgroup. Your decisions about what others have
use for are misguided.

Others want recommendations about programs which have been tested,
checked that they really are freeware, programs which somebody
really have found to be valuable.
These readers only download programs they have read details and
good comments about, programs which one or more people can
recommend.

These readers have no use for long lists of links to fairly
unknown new programs, as they cannot afford or do not have time to
test unknown programs.

Such readers should not download and read the posts they don't want.
You've made it clear that you download all messages to the group,
complete with bodies. Why you continue to do so and then complain
about it is beyond me.

 

[Steve H]

(e-mail address removed) ( Steve H) wrote:



That means you have to check out each message twice and waste a lot of
time marking messages, and dialup twice.

Skipping through the headers with the N key is stretching the
definition of checking out the message somewhat, and any time spent on
this semi-selective process is more than recouped in not having to
wait for hundreds of unwanted bodies to download.

What's the big deal about dialing up twice? It's not like I have to
shovel loads of coal into a boiler, or recharge a lead-acid
accumulator... I, er, just click on connect.
OK, OK, I have to type my password in - it's a fair cop, you got me
bang to rights on that one ( Guv ).

I thought your gripe was that it was costing you money - when you're
not connected it's not costing you.

If you see some interesting header you have to wait until you have
downloaded it to see the content.

And so do you, that's kind of how it works - unless you have an
advanced form of precognition. In all probability though I'm likely to
be done reading my selected posts while you're still wading through
the also-rans.

Essentially we both do the same thing - we dial up, download the
headers, select what we want, then download the bodies.
In your case the selection is automatic and all-inclusive ( and online
), in my case I disconnect, make my selection, and then do the
downloads. It's that break inbetween that allows me to discriminate
and save pennies - which is why I'm such a mellow chap.

I mean, don't get me wrong - I'm not criticising your NG browsing
methods, merely pointing out that the way I do it is cost-effective on
a pay as you dial network, and doesn't cause me grief when people post
lots of individual pointers to programs.
To be frank, it's actually really handy for me - I'm far more likely
to catch a relevant nugget of info with a header that reads, say,
"Newsgroup Archiver" than one that says "All my latest updates".

I'd have thought that someone who reads a clearly impressive and
certainly phenomenal 2000 messages a day would benefit from being a
tad more selective - must be a full time job. I find the pathetically
meagre couple of hundred messages I download can take a couple of
hours to wade through sometimes.

Regards,