DVD / DVD+R /DVD-R / DVDRW. Are they all really distinct media formats?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Rahul
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Rahul

I'm always confused by DVD terminology when buying media to write on.
There's DVD / DVD+R / DVD-R / DVDRW and I'm not even sure which more!

Are these all really distinct technologies and formats? Or are some subsets
/ supersets of others? Or maybe its only backward compatibility issues?
What's the best way to figure out what format my Laptop supports? Do they
have varied sizes? Does it matter whether I'm writing data or movies etc.?
I faintly remember there being lead-in / lead-out issues....

I've never faced the problem that I bought some commercial movie etc. on a
DVD and my Dell Laptop ( Inspirion E1505)'s inbuilt DVD reader /writer
couldn't read it. Its a dual boot so are there any Linux-vs-Win issues
too?

Are these distinctions only relevant when writing disks at home as opposed
to commercially stamped disks? Or maybe when reading on hardware other than
"computers" (etc. DVD players etc.)


Just looking for some tips to lead me out of this technology morass.
 
Rahul said:
I'm always confused by DVD terminology when buying media to write
on. There's DVD / DVD+R / DVD-R / DVDRW and I'm not even sure which
more!

Are these all really distinct technologies and formats? Or are some
subsets / supersets of others? Or maybe its only backward
compatibility issues? What's the best way to figure out what format
my Laptop supports? Do they have varied sizes? Does it matter
whether I'm writing data or movies etc.? I faintly remember there
being lead-in / lead-out issues....

I've never faced the problem that I bought some commercial movie
etc. on a DVD and my Dell Laptop ( Inspirion E1505)'s inbuilt DVD
reader /writer couldn't read it. Its a dual boot so are there any
Linux-vs-Win issues too?

Are these distinctions only relevant when writing disks at home as
opposed to commercially stamped disks? Or maybe when reading on
hardware other than "computers" (etc. DVD players etc.)

Just looking for some tips to lead me out of this technology morass.

DVD - this means you cannot write to it. It has been stamped or written to
by someone else and would be how some of your applications and movies would
come.

DVD+/-R - this is two different types of read many, write once media. As
for which kind would be what you want - it depends on your purpose and what
your other equipment is able to read (like stand-alone DVD players) and
write (what you are using to write to said media.)

DVD+/-RW - this is two different types of read many, write many media (RW =
ReWritable.) As for which kind would be what you want - it depends on your
purpose and what your other equipment is able to read (like stand-alone DVD
players) and write (what you are using to write to said media.)

There is also "DVD DL" (Dual Layer) and the older/lesser used "DVD RAM"
media type. The former is like having two DVDs worth of space on a single
DVD and the latter is like an advanced version of the RW.

As far as finding out what you can write to... Just figure out what DVD
writer you have. As far as reading - other than possibly DVD RAM - most
modern DVD players in computers can read any type of DVD - it's the
stand-alone DVD players that you have to read the manuals for.
 
I'm always confused by DVD terminology when buying media to write on.
There's DVD / DVD+R / DVD-R / DVDRW and I'm not even sure which more!

Are these all really distinct technologies and formats? Or are some subsets
/ supersets of others? Or maybe its only backward compatibility issues?
What's the best way to figure out what format my Laptop supports? Do they
have varied sizes? Does it matter whether I'm writing data or movies etc.?
I faintly remember there being lead-in / lead-out issues....

I've never faced the problem that I bought some commercial movie etc. on a
DVD and my Dell Laptop ( Inspirion E1505)'s inbuilt DVD reader /writer
couldn't read it. Its a dual boot so are there any Linux-vs-Win issues
too?

Are these distinctions only relevant when writing disks at home as opposed
to commercially stamped disks? Or maybe when reading on hardware other than
"computers" (etc. DVD players etc.)


Just looking for some tips to lead me out of this technology morass.

Why ask HERE? What does ANY of this have to do with the XP OS?
NOTHING.

Ask elsewhere
 
Rahul said:
I'm always confused by DVD terminology when buying media to write on.
There's DVD / DVD+R / DVD-R / DVDRW and I'm not even sure which more!

Are these all really distinct technologies and formats? Or are some
subsets
/ supersets of others? Or maybe its only backward compatibility issues?
What's the best way to figure out what format my Laptop supports? Do they
have varied sizes? Does it matter whether I'm writing data or movies etc.?
I faintly remember there being lead-in / lead-out issues....

I've never faced the problem that I bought some commercial movie etc. on a
DVD and my Dell Laptop ( Inspirion E1505)'s inbuilt DVD reader /writer
couldn't read it. Its a dual boot so are there any Linux-vs-Win issues
too?

Are these distinctions only relevant when writing disks at home as opposed
to commercially stamped disks? Or maybe when reading on hardware other
than
"computers" (etc. DVD players etc.)


Just looking for some tips to lead me out of this technology morass.

The plus (+) and minus (-) are write formats. Either writer requirement
doesn't really matter. In the end, both can read both formats if worth
their salt.

In the early days, there were DVD players for the TV that could only read
the plus or minus versions. Now, that's not really an issue. Stamped DVDs
is not an issue in any case. For both DVD players and DVD burners, media
quality and reflectivity can determine the outcome of a readability and
burner recognition.
--
Dave

Speculation on a product or material that is
an obvious need, is not speculation per se
as there is no risk to the speculator.
Common were those selling food and other
supplies in the gold rush days.
In this case, its oil and its everyone who
bites the bullet. And most everyone has no gold
to be made, just business as usual.
 
The plus (+) and minus (-) are write formats. Either writer
requirement doesn't really matter. In the end, both can read both
formats if worth their salt.

In the early days, there were DVD players for the TV that could only
read the plus or minus versions. Now, that's not really an issue.
Stamped DVDs is not an issue in any case. For both DVD players and
DVD burners, media quality and reflectivity can determine the outcome
of a readability and burner recognition.

Thanks Dave! I just dug into the specs. for my Dell Inspirion Laptop: "8X
DVD+/-RW Drive for Inspiron 6400/E1505"

So I guess it can write to both + and - types I assume. They both seem to
be equally cheap. Any reason to buy one over the other?
 
Rahul said:
Thanks Dave! I just dug into the specs. for my Dell Inspirion Laptop: "8X
DVD+/-RW Drive for Inspiron 6400/E1505"

So I guess it can write to both + and - types I assume.

That may depend on the particular drive you have.
They both seem to
be equally cheap. Any reason to buy one over the other?

DVD-R's tend to be more compatible (esp. with older models), since it's been
around a lot longer.

I've had some problems with DVD+Rs working on some older models, but not
with the DVD-Rs.

I don't use (nor will I ever use) any R/W discs. Only the basic discs
(like DVD-R, or DVD+R), using the DAO (disc-at-once) mode, and NO packet
writing garbage.

That means that when you write (or burn) the disc, it's done. If you want
to change things, you need to get a new disc. But at least it's RELIABLE.

(The same cannot be said for the R/W packet-writing based stuff. Like
InCD (in Nero), and DirectCD (in EZCD) for example (assuming you installed
those packet writing modules).
 
Rahul said:
Thanks Dave! I just dug into the specs. for my Dell Inspirion Laptop: "8X
DVD+/-RW Drive for Inspiron 6400/E1505"

So I guess it can write to both + and - types I assume. They both seem to
be equally cheap. Any reason to buy one over the other?


Only if you're burning movies for a + or - specific DVD player for the TV,
or, one of your share DVD buddies has a picky DVD player on their PC or TV.

I transcended from the same story of a Technics DVD player that only reads +
media. So, I have alot of plus DVD burner DVDs onhand. Have a relatively
new Toshiba DVD player replacement, HD version that will be a relic soon.
Does either plus or minus reads. Also have some HD only movie DVDs, soon to
be relics as all the movie production outfits went Blue-Ray. The transition
went much quicker than the VHS vs. Beta players for videotape. If anyone
out there is in the same boat, Netflix has HD mode DVDs. Don't go by their
HD mode only selection, its incomplete. They have more.
--
Dave

Speculation on a product or material that is
an obvious need, is not speculation per se
as there is no risk to the speculator.
Common were those selling food and other
supplies in the gold rush days.
In this case, its oil and its everyone who
bites the bullet. And most everyone has no gold
to be made, just business as usual.
 
This is interesting. There are players out there that ONLY read the DVD+R?
I'm surprised! (Seeing is how the older DVD-R standard predates it, and I
have HAD to use that older standard (DVD-R) for some of my players to work).
 
Rahul said:
I'm always confused by DVD terminology when buying media to write on.
There's DVD / DVD+R / DVD-R / DVDRW and I'm not even sure which more!

Are these all really distinct technologies and formats? Or are some
subsets
/ supersets of others? Or maybe its only backward compatibility issues?
What's the best way to figure out what format my Laptop supports? Do they
have varied sizes? Does it matter whether I'm writing data or movies etc.?
I faintly remember there being lead-in / lead-out issues....

I've never faced the problem that I bought some commercial movie etc. on a
DVD and my Dell Laptop ( Inspirion E1505)'s inbuilt DVD reader /writer
couldn't read it. Its a dual boot so are there any Linux-vs-Win issues
too?

Are these distinctions only relevant when writing disks at home as opposed
to commercially stamped disks? Or maybe when reading on hardware other
than
"computers" (etc. DVD players etc.)

First: the easy bit. The 'R' media is write once. The 'RW' media can be
erased allowing its re-use.

A little more complex is the difference between the '-' discs and '+' discs.
As far as you the user is concerned, except for some uses there is little to
chose. Some older video DVD players will refuse to recognise the DVD+RW
discs (but will recognise DVD+R). This was the result of a deliberate
attempt by Toshiba to discourage the '+' format. Once rumbled they had to
abandon it.

For DVD-R and DVD+R, there is no practical difference other than the latter
is written faster by some drives.

For DVD-RW and DVD+RW there is a subtle difference in that the former is
eraseable at the block level only. The latter is eraseable at the word
level. This means that individual words can be erased and overwritten. It
also means that if used for video, more video can be added to the end of
existing video and the two played through seemlessly. This cannot be done
with the '-' format.

If you are planning on using packet incemental format (Nero's InCD or
Roxio's Drag-to-disc), then DVD+RW will be much more reliable than DVD-RW.

Every modern DVD writer supports all 4 types of disc. Some also support a
format known as DVD-RAM which works much like any normal disc drive. This
latter format is the only writeable DVD format that is supported by Windows
XP out of the box (but beware, DVD-RAM formatted by XP isn't fully
compatible with Vista).
 
Lil' Dave said:
Only if you're burning movies for a + or - specific DVD player for the TV,
or, one of your share DVD buddies has a picky DVD player on their PC or
TV.

I transcended from the same story of a Technics DVD player that only reads
+ media.

That is the first time that I have heard of a player that reads the '+' but
not the '-' format.

Older players made by Toshiba* will not read DVD+RW disks but only because
they were deliberately rigged to detect the media and then behave as though
they couldn't read it. Toshiba had a commercial interest in burying the '+'
format. Some more modern players will not work with DVD+R9 media (dual
layer) because the book code was allocated after the players were made (but
they didn't actually require a different book code - a mistake that was not
made with DVD-R9)

*Including other manufacturers' players where the mechanism was made by
Toshiba.
 
M.I.5¾ said:
That is the first time that I have heard of a player that reads the '+'
but
not the '-' format.

Same here. BTW, some older players will not read the DVD+R discs but will
read the DVD-R discs fine. (NB: I'm not talking about the RW discs here,
which you address below)
 
M.I.5¾ said:
First: the easy bit. The 'R' media is write once. The 'RW' media can be
erased allowing its re-use.

A little more complex is the difference between the '-' discs and '+'
discs.
As far as you the user is concerned, except for some uses there is little
to
chose. Some older video DVD players will refuse to recognise the DVD+RW
discs (but will recognise DVD+R). This was the result of a deliberate
attempt by Toshiba to discourage the '+' format. Once rumbled they had to
abandon it.

For DVD-R and DVD+R, there is no practical difference other than the
latter
is written faster by some drives.

AND that the DVD-R discs are more compatible with some older players.
(BTDT)
For DVD-RW and DVD+RW there is a subtle difference in that the former is
eraseable at the block level only. The latter is eraseable at the word
level. This means that individual words can be erased and overwritten.
It
also means that if used for video, more video can be added to the end of
existing video and the two played through seemlessly. This cannot be done
with the '-' format.

If you are planning on using packet incemental format (Nero's InCD or
Roxio's Drag-to-disc), then DVD+RW will be much more reliable than DVD-RW.

Does any truly sane person use the packet writing stuff? Too many
potential problems there. :-) InCD and DirectCD, thanks, but no
thanks.
 
M.I.5¾ said:
First: the easy bit. The 'R' media is write once. The 'RW' media can be
erased allowing its re-use.

A little more complex is the difference between the '-' discs and '+'
discs.
As far as you the user is concerned, except for some uses there is little
to
chose. Some older video DVD players will refuse to recognise the DVD+RW
discs (but will recognise DVD+R). This was the result of a deliberate
attempt by Toshiba to discourage the '+' format. Once rumbled they had to
abandon it.

For DVD-R and DVD+R, there is no practical difference other than the
latter
is written faster by some drives.

For DVD-RW and DVD+RW there is a subtle difference in that the former is
eraseable at the block level only. The latter is eraseable at the word
level. This means that individual words can be erased and overwritten.
It
also means that if used for video, more video can be added to the end of
existing video and the two played through seemlessly. This cannot be done
with the '-' format.

If you are planning on using packet incemental format (Nero's InCD or
Roxio's Drag-to-disc), then DVD+RW will be much more reliable than DVD-RW.

Just out of curiosity, why is that? (I don't use the packet writing
format, but am curious, and would have expected the older standard to be
more compatible in this case, too - seems like (from a hardware viewpoint)
it might be "simpler" to just erase the whole block, rather than the
individual word - albeit less desireable for the user).
 
Bill in Co. said:
AND that the DVD-R discs are more compatible with some older players.
(BTDT)

I've already covered this point. There should be no difference. I am not
aware of any player that will not play DVD+R discs (even first generation
players play them flawlessly) unles the player's laser has deteriorated -
but then they won't play lots of formats. It was the DVD+RW that gave all
the problems but only because players were deliberately rigged to refuse to
play them.
Does any truly sane person use the packet writing stuff? Too many
potential problems there. :-) InCD and DirectCD, thanks, but no
thanks.

Whilst I agree with you, many people do. DVD+RW discs give few problems
with packet writing unlike DVD-RW and CD-RW. But if your drive supports
DVD-RAM use that instead.
 
Bill in Co. said:
Just out of curiosity, why is that? (I don't use the packet writing
format, but am curious, and would have expected the older standard to be
more compatible in this case, too - seems like (from a hardware viewpoint)
it might be "simpler" to just erase the whole block, rather than the
individual word - albeit less desireable for the user).

It is because the read/write head when writing a DVD-RW in the drive, can
only locate positions on the disc to within a block of data. As a result
the drive has to leave a 2 block gap between different data block to avoid
over writing previous data. It is bit hit and miss and consequently it
misses on occasions and overwrites something. If that happens to be part of
the TOC or FAT, then the disc is corrupt and unreadable.

DVD+RW is a bit more technologically advanced such that the read/write head
can locate to a word of data and accurately overwrite it. Thus the
potential for overwriting something important, whilst not entirely removed,
is vastly less likely.
 
Bill in Co. said:
Same here. BTW, some older players will not read the DVD+R discs but
will read the DVD-R discs fine. (NB: I'm not talking about the RW discs
here, which you address below)

Then there is something wrong here. The difference relates only to the way
the discs are written. Once a DVD+R is written, there are no different from
a DVD-R (or indeed a premastered DVD). The ID bytes are even the same (in
all 3 cases).
 
M.I.5¾ said:
Then there is something wrong here. The difference relates only to the
way
the discs are written. Once a DVD+R is written, there are no different
from
a DVD-R (or indeed a premastered DVD). The ID bytes are even the same (in
all 3 cases).

Evidently there is SOME difference. We know the DVD+R discs are
manufactured at least in some way different from the DVD-R discs, but
whether the problem is with reading the disc themselves, or the way it is
written to the disc, I can't say. But one thing I can say: I have on at
least a couple of occasions had discs I made using DVD+Rs that could not be
read by my older DVD players, whereas when I made them using DVD-R discs,
they worked perfectly. And yes, the DVD writer was able to write both
types of discs.

There was also some article covering this very point that I read some time
ago on the net, so it's not like it was just my case alone. The
recommendation then was to use the DVD-Rs for better backward compatibility,
and from what little I have seen, they were correct.
 
M.I.5¾ said:
I've already covered this point. There should be no difference. I am
not
aware of any player that will not play DVD+R discs (even first generation
players play them flawlessly) unless the player's laser has deteriorated -
but then they won't play lots of formats.

Well, that's not the only reason. Come over and see for yourself. :-)
It was the DVD+RW that gave all
the problems but only because players were deliberately rigged to refuse
to
play them.

Well, as I said in my other post, evidently there is some difference. To
recap:

We know the DVD+R discs are manufactured at least in some way different from
the DVD-R discs, but whether the problem is with reading the disc
themselves, or the way it is written to the disc, I can't say. But one
thing I can say: I have on at least a couple of occasions had discs I made
using DVD+Rs that could not be read by my older DVD players, whereas when I
made them using DVD-R discs, they worked perfectly. And yes, the DVD
writer was able to write both types of discs.

There was also some article covering this very point that I read some time
ago on the net, so it's not like it was just my case alone. The
recommendation then was to use the DVD-Rs for better backward compatibility,
and from what little I have seen, they were correct.

Whilst I agree with you, many people do. DVD+RW discs give few problems
with packet writing unlike DVD-RW and CD-RW. But if your drive supports
DVD-RAM use that instead.

I'd rather just stick with the tried and true DVD-R discs, which work on
about anything.

And another side benefit is that there are NO problematic conflicts between
(or even due to any) packet writing stuff. I have BOTH Nero *and* EZCD
installed on my computer, but sanely WITHOUT any InCD and DirectCD crap
being installed.

As in, "thanks, but no thanks".
 
M.I.5¾ said:
It is because the read/write head when writing a DVD-RW in the drive, can
only locate positions on the disc to within a block of data. As a result
the drive has to leave a 2 block gap between different data block to avoid
over writing previous data. It is bit hit and miss and consequently it
misses on occasions and overwrites something. If that happens to be part
of
the TOC or FAT, then the disc is corrupt and unreadable.

DVD+RW is a bit more technologically advanced such that the read/write
head
can locate to a word of data and accurately overwrite it. Thus the
potential for overwriting something important, whilst not entirely
removed,
is vastly less likely.

Interesting. So if this is really true, then I expect the DVD+RW has
replaced the DVD-RWs in the stores by now, but I never use them, so I don't
know.
 
Bill in Co. said:
Well, that's not the only reason. Come over and see for yourself. :-)


Well, as I said in my other post, evidently there is some difference. To
recap:

We know the DVD+R discs are manufactured at least in some way different
from the DVD-R discs, but whether the problem is with reading the disc
themselves, or the way it is written to the disc, I can't say. But one
thing I can say: I have on at least a couple of occasions had discs I
made using DVD+Rs that could not be read by my older DVD players, whereas
when I made them using DVD-R discs, they worked perfectly. And yes, the
DVD writer was able to write both types of discs.

As I said before, the difference in the technology relates purely in the way
the disc is written. It is related to providing the write laser the ability
to accurately position burns subsequent to the first burn. Once the disc is
written, as far as reading the disc is concerned there is absolutely no
difference between them.
There was also some article covering this very point that I read some time
ago on the net, so it's not like it was just my case alone. The
recommendation then was to use the DVD-Rs for better backward
compatibility, and from what little I have seen, they were correct.

Again as I said before, this recommendation arose because quite a number of
video DVD players wouldn't read DVD+RW discs (the DVD+R didn't exist at this
point). Thus the story quickly spread that the '+' format wasn't fully
compatible with all DVD players. It was only when the DVD+R discs appeared
that it was discovered that the players that wouldn't play DVD+RW discs,
quite flawlessly played the DVD+R discs. This totally went against the
claimed reasons for the incompatibility. On investigation, it was found
that some video DVD players were reading the compatibility ID byte off the
disc (something that video players had no reason to do). If the ID byte was
'0' (DVD_ROM, DVD-R or DVD+R) or '1' (DVD-RW) then the player would play the
disc, but if the ID byte was '2' (indicating a DVD+RW disc - or more
accurately, indicating that the disc was byte eraseable and writable) the
player then executed a software routine that made the laser and motor behave
as though a non readable disc had been inserted, finally giving an error
message about incompatible format.

It was quickly realised that it was Toshiba players that did this and less
quickly realised that any other badged players where the player mechanism
was made by Toshiba. It should be remembered that it was Toshiba that
resisted the introduction of the '+' format, and Toshiba who was behind the
refusal to allow the '+' format to use the standard DVD logo on drives and
discs. Once Toshiba had succeeded in excluding the '+' format, it became
obvious that the DVD consortium would receive no revenue from this 'rogue'
format and so Toshiba had a vested interest in ensuring its demise. Once
the culprit was identified, the news travelled with Internet speed around
the planet and Toshiba suddenly found itself facing a consumer boycott*.
Toshiba had to a bit of backpedalling, and now their video players will play
DVD+RW format discs, but the their video DVD recorders continue not to
support the format, though to be fair to Toshiba the DVD+VR video recorder
format for DVD+RW is very different to the DVD-VR format for DVD-RW and
somewhat less flexible.

* In fact the Richer Sounds chain actually stopped stocking their goods
because no one would buy them.
I'd rather just stick with the tried and true DVD-R discs, which work on
about anything.

Virtually all my video DVD discs have been produced in DVD+R format and I've
never had a complaint. The only time I use DVD-R is for material that is
recorded on my DVD recorder. But even here, I will often record to DVD-RAM
and then transfer to DVD+R using authoring software if necessary. This also
allows me to add the widescreen flags which few, if any, video recorders
support when producing standard format video discs.

All of my data discs are DVD+R or DVD+RW.
 
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