Diagnostics software (slightly O/T)

  • Thread starter Thread starter GT
  • Start date Start date
You installed and O/S to a SATA drive yet<grin> :)

I haven't but my son has.

Why? What's the problem?


--

"All men seek to be enlightened. Religion is but the most ancient
and honorable way in which men have striven to make sense out of
God's universe. Scientists seek the lawfulness of events. It is
the task of religion to fit man into this lawfulness. Religion
must remain an outlet for people who say to themsleves, 'I am
not the kind of person I want to be'."
--Frank Herbert, "Dune"
 
Since buy.com currently has the Google Checkout $20 off $50
discount (only a few days remaining for that, IIRC), you can
get a 250GB in various flavors for around $66 delivered, not
bad for a non-rebate price.

How do you know that's not a refurbished unit?

I wouldn't have a Seagate in my house. They are complete crap.

I can still remember the days when I had to beat on the side of my
computer to get an ST-120 to run. Then there was the tape drive that
never worked right.


--

"All men seek to be enlightened. Religion is but the most ancient
and honorable way in which men have striven to make sense out of
God's universe. Scientists seek the lawfulness of events. It is
the task of religion to fit man into this lawfulness. Religion
must remain an outlet for people who say to themsleves, 'I am
not the kind of person I want to be'."
--Frank Herbert, "Dune"
 
How do you know that's not a refurbished unit?

I wouldn't have a Seagate in my house. They are complete crap.

Mindlessly silly, the world's moved on.
I can still remember the days when I had to beat on
the side of my computer to get an ST-120 to run.

Mindlessly silly, the world's moved on.
Then there was the tape drive that never worked right.

Tape drives are a tad different to hard drives, stupid.
 
How do you know that's not a refurbished unit?

Same way you know it from any manufacturer or seller,
they're required to mention it. Then there's the part about
having bought some...

I wouldn't have a Seagate in my house. They are complete crap.

Because you had one fail? Two? I have quite a few drives
spinning at the moment, Seagates are doing fine. Then
again, given good PSU and reasonable cooling I haven't found
major problems with any of the past few generations from any
of the major brands, though there is always going to be one
or two that fail, but a low rate and fairly distributed
between brands.

I can still remember the days when I had to beat on the side of my
computer to get an ST-120 to run. Then there was the tape drive that
never worked right.

This has absolutely nothing to do with current generation
products from any brand. There are less differences between
any brand of modern generation drive than between one
brand's current generation and one THAT old... except of
course perpendicular recording.

Seems I vaguely recall you like WD... do you see me bashing
them for any of their problematic models like the Caviar
4GB? Those were perhaps 2nd or 3rd worst after the
Deathstars, and I had a few of those fail as well... but it
wouldn't keep me from buying a WD either.
 
Same way you know it from any manufacturer or seller,
they're required to mention it.

Who says they are required? And who says that if they are, that they
do? How about factory defective units - are vendors required to tell
customers that the units are "second runs"? Does Intel tell customers
that their Celerons are "second runs"?
Then there's the part about having bought some...

Once bitten, twice shy. For essentially the same money I can get WD
which I know are good units based on technical people who buy them for
companies.
Because you had one fail? Two?

Two too many.
I have quite a few drives spinning at the moment, Seagates are doing fine.

I am truly happy for you. For me I won't subject myself to the kind of
experiences I have had with Seagate. For one, I don't need to when I
can get WD for essentially the same price.
Seems I vaguely recall you like WD... do you see me bashing
them for any of their problematic models like the Caviar
4GB?

You can if you want. But it won't have any influence on me, any more
than my bashing Seagate has on you.
Those were perhaps 2nd or 3rd worst after the
Deathstars, and I had a few of those fail as well... but it
wouldn't keep me from buying a WD either.

You are easy to please. I am not.



--

"All men seek to be enlightened. Religion is but the most ancient
and honorable way in which men have striven to make sense out of
God's universe. Scientists seek the lawfulness of events. It is
the task of religion to fit man into this lawfulness. Religion
must remain an outlet for people who say to themsleves, 'I am
not the kind of person I want to be'."
--Frank Herbert, "Dune"
 
Who says they are required?

VERY basic consumer law in any modern first world country.
And who says that if they are, that they do?

They're unlikely to risk it.
How about factory defective units

No such animal.
- are vendors required to tell customers that the units are "second runs"?

No such animal.
Does Intel tell customers that their Celerons are "second runs"?

They arent. They do list the specs.
Once bitten, twice shy. For essentially the same money
I can get WD which I know are good units based on
technical people who buy them for companies.

Plenty of those buy Seagates, stupid.
Two too many.

Pathetic really with stuff so ancient.
I am truly happy for you. For me I won't subject myself to the
kind of experiences I have had with Seagate. For one, I don't
need to when I can get WD for essentially the same price.

Plenty have had dud WDs too.
You can if you want. But it won't have any influence on
me, any more than my bashing Seagate has on you.
Whoosh...
You are easy to please. I am not.

You're a fool. It really is as basic as that.
 
Who says they are required?

Law

Do you really try to second guess every retail product
bought from major retailers? This is a pretty clear-cut
issue, they're new drives.


And who says that if they are, that they
do? How about factory defective units - are vendors required to tell
customers that the units are "second runs"?

If it really worries you this much, don't buy any
hardware... that includes from Directron, they'd be just as
likely to get questionable product as anybody else
drop-shipping from the major distributors.

Define "second run" though, major brands don't sell products
that fail QA with their lables, usually such are destroyed
or sold under a different label with different specs.
Does Intel tell customers
that their Celerons are "second runs"?

They aren't, Intel never spec'd anything for a Celeron they
sell that isn't functional. If you are claiming it's so
because some at point point might've been a P4 with some
cache disabled, so what? That's not a second run, it's like
buying an 8 ft 2 x 4 from the lumber yard and claiming it's
somehow inferior because it "might" have been a 12ft 2 x 4
if it weren't for a knot cut out 9 feet from the end.

So long as what is there is meeting specs, it is no second
run anything.

Once bitten, twice shy. For essentially the same money I can get WD
which I know are good units based on technical people who buy them for
companies.

So you are supposing companies primarily buy WD? Hardly.
WD aren't bad but have nothing in particular making them any
more desirable, on average, than other brands. There are a
few with noteworthy features like the high RPM Raptor, but I
don't think you are only considering those.


Two too many.

So it wouldn't seem appropriate to consider far more modern
drives and substantially larger sample sizes? That is the
only way to get data even remotely resembling reasonable.



You are easy to please. I am not.

If only you had any reason to believe you had gain from your
choices, but statistically most drives don't fail, if your
impression were close to true then the other brands wouldn't
exist today at similar pricing.
 

Can you cite that law? I realise that some states do have tough
consumer laws but not all do.
If it really worries you this much, don't buy any
hardware... that includes from Directron, they'd be just as
likely to get questionable product as anybody else
drop-shipping from the major distributors.

I know the people who run Directron. I know the product specialist and
I call him every time I buy something. I have had them put special
clauses on my P.O. that protect me. I also always pick the items up in
person and if I suspect something, I ask. They have always been good
to me and that's why I do business and refer others.

I had a friend who was in the computer business and he knew all the
wholesalers in Houston. He would tell me how they operated. It's like
making sausage - you don't want to know. I can tell you this - if you
believe some law is going to protect you from unscrupulous vendors, I
have a bridge in NY to sell you.
Define "second run" though, major brands don't sell products
that fail QA with their lables, usually such are destroyed
or sold under a different label with different specs.

I was in the import-export business many years ago and we got fliers
from vendors overseas that sold consumer items at outrageously low
prices. We talking about a complete socket tool set for $2. We would
get them to send us free samples which they gladly did. The stuff they
were selling was obviously defective. We had a racket wrench literally
explode on us when we put reasonable force on it - the guts blew out
the side and flew all over. I was the one turning it and I nearly lost
all my knuckles when it let loose. I know what second run means.

Have you taken the time to look at the liquidators on the web - they
are all over the place. Some of them even advertise that they will
help you get started on Ebay, which is notorious for second run
"palette" electronics. Here's a relatively benign example of what I am
talking about.

Polaroid introduced its first hard disk DVD recorder last February at
WalMart. However the manufacturer put the wrong manual in the box so
the units had to be recalled. WalMart would not take them back so
Polaroid had to liguidate them - it was cheaper than sending them back
or opening the boxes and replacing the manual. So they sold them to
some liguidators - about 5,000 units. You see them on Ebay today. How
do I know - they had date-coded serial numbers. It so happens that on
that unit the fan is on the outside and is a bit noisy. That problem
was corrected with the next run in August. So the February unit you
buy on Ebay has the wrong manual and a noisy fan. That is not the same
as what is available in WalMart today.

My son joined a friend who was selling on Ebay. He tells me they got
second run merchandise from liquidators in Dallas. He kept some of it
for personal use and had defective items. They quit selling on Ebay
because they spent all their time replacing defective items.


--

"All men seek to be enlightened. Religion is but the most ancient
and honorable way in which men have striven to make sense out of
God's universe. Scientists seek the lawfulness of events. It is
the task of religion to fit man into this lawfulness. Religion
must remain an outlet for people who say to themsleves, 'I am
not the kind of person I want to be'."
--Frank Herbert, "Dune"
 
Can you cite that law? I realise that some states do have tough
consumer laws but not all do.


I know the people who run Directron. I know the product specialist and
I call him every time I buy something. I have had them put special
clauses on my P.O. that protect me. I also always pick the items up in
person and if I suspect something, I ask. They have always been good
to me and that's why I do business and refer others.

That's good I suppose... but I've never had to "suspect
something" when it came to buying a new drive from a major
retailer.


I had a friend who was in the computer business and he knew all the
wholesalers in Houston. He would tell me how they operated. It's like
making sausage - you don't want to know. I can tell you this - if you
believe some law is going to protect you from unscrupulous vendors, I
have a bridge in NY to sell you.

I'd venture that I've bought 100 times as many drives as you
have in the past few years. None were seconds, refurbs,
etc. When the day comes that it happens I will give your
concerns more thought. Until then, I have no complaints
about the products I received... and if there were any doubt
the manufacturer can be called and product serials looked
up... some even have this service on their website for
warranty purposes.


I was in the import-export business many years ago and we got fliers
from vendors overseas that sold consumer items at outrageously low
prices. We talking about a complete socket tool set for $2. We would
get them to send us free samples which they gladly did. The stuff they
were selling was obviously defective. We had a racket wrench literally
explode on us when we put reasonable force on it - the guts blew out
the side and flew all over. I was the one turning it and I nearly lost
all my knuckles when it let loose. I know what second run means.

I'm not suggesting you buy your hard drives off the back of
a truck in an alley. There IS consumer feedback and the
internet itself makes such vendors quite visible these days.
I deal with companies I have at least enough confidence in
that there is no second-guessing whether a product which
appears marketed as new, is.


Have you taken the time to look at the liquidators on the web - they
are all over the place. Some of them even advertise that they will
help you get started on Ebay, which is notorious for second run
"palette" electronics. Here's a relatively benign example of what I am
talking about.

One shady seller is not a condemnation of every seller
except Directron. Even so I'd never buy anything from the
low ballers on Pricewatch.com and some other pricing engines
unless I was familiar with the company and had found some
reputable user feedback... and even then, usually not, over
time you get a fair idea of which reputable sellers have
what you need at the best pricing or "close enough"... it's
not worth an hour of looking to save a percent or two.
Polaroid introduced its first hard disk DVD recorder last February at
WalMart. However the manufacturer put the wrong manual in the box so
the units had to be recalled. WalMart would not take them back so
Polaroid had to liguidate them - it was cheaper than sending them back
or opening the boxes and replacing the manual.

Ok, but I'd never buy the relabed Polariod junk, nor most
things from Wal-Mart as I don't particularly care for the
treatment of their employees.


So they sold them to
some liguidators - about 5,000 units. You see them on Ebay today. How
do I know - they had date-coded serial numbers. It so happens that on
that unit the fan is on the outside and is a bit noisy. That problem
was corrected with the next run in August. So the February unit you
buy on Ebay has the wrong manual and a noisy fan. That is not the same
as what is available in WalMart today.

I don't recall ever suggesting someone buy a current
generation commodity item on ebay. I will on occasion when
it's a fairly simple and very cheap item like a compact
flash IDE adapter (basicly a bare PCB with pins adapter on
it), or rarer knives and other misc one-of-a-kind items if
the seller feedback is good, but certainly not major
electronics.
My son joined a friend who was selling on Ebay. He tells me they got
second run merchandise from liquidators in Dallas. He kept some of it
for personal use and had defective items. They quit selling on Ebay
because they spent all their time replacing defective items.


.... at least they replaced it instead of closing down quick
and changing the storefront name. Regardless, this has no
bearing on _major_ internet superstores selling branding,
factory sealed and tracable products. They have millions
riding on their reputation, it's not like an ebay seller who
can just weather out a new ebay store till they get a few
dozen good feedback ratings.
 
but I've never had to "suspect
something" when it came to buying a new drive from a major
retailer.

I heard people bitching about Tiger Direct selling crap, although I
never confirmed it.

Google for liquidators and see just how much crap ends up on pallets.
It has to go somewhere. Many states have recently adopted laws
prohibiting putting returned items back on the shelf which is what is
fueling the liquidators.
I'd venture that I've bought 100 times as many drives as you
have in the past few years.

More like thousands. My drives last a good 5 years or longer. I just
retired a drive I bought in 1999.

None were seconds, refurbs,
etc. When the day comes that it happens I will give your
concerns more thought. Until then, I have no complaints
about the products I received... and if there were any doubt
the manufacturer can be called and product serials looked
up... some even have this service on their website for
warranty purposes.

That's good, but don't be surprised to find some vendors reluctant to
admit they sell to liquidators. I bought a thermidistat from someone
on Ebay after doing as much checking up as I could. I know the unit
came from a liquidator because the price was below cost. I learned
that by calling the manufacturer.

After I got the unit I called again to see if it was liquidated and
the reason for liquidation. The product line manager I spoke with
would not cooperate, claiming that the company did not sell to
liquidators. When I asked how someone on Ebay could routinely sell the
unit under cost, the person got turned off.

The unit turned out to be free from defects, either design or
manufacturing defects, so I got a perfectly good unit for less than it
costs to make it. It was likely a contractor bankruptcy liquidation so
the units were perfectly good.
One shady seller is not a condemnation of every seller
except Directron. Even so I'd never buy anything from the
low ballers on Pricewatch.com and some other pricing engines
unless I was familiar with the company and had found some
reputable user feedback.

Then you know how to shop wisely.

You and I are saying basically the same thing, only I am saying it out
loud.
 
I heard people bitching about Tiger Direct selling crap, although I
never confirmed it.

Some if it ok name brand stuff, other is crap, other is
misleadingly spec'd. It's not the quality of the goods I
have a problem with so much (as Directron also sells a lot
of crap quality goods like cases and PSU, but so do many
stores, only because the uninitiated still buy them). With
TD, they continually display questionable ethics and in the
past have even stooped to schemes like billing customers'
credit cards for long distance plans after hiding a little
option to de-select when making a purchase.

Google for liquidators and see just how much crap ends up on pallets.
It has to go somewhere. Many states have recently adopted laws
prohibiting putting returned items back on the shelf which is what is
fueling the liquidators.


I'm sure there is quite a bit of the stuff out there, but
the larger stores have the buying power to get better prices
without risk to their reputation dealing with seconds. Even
Tiger Direct, a company I'd just as soon see out of
business, is not one I would expect to be selling factory
second hard drives unless they had mentioned it on the
product page (though sometimes the text is obscured by other
random and obvious noise about the product).



None were seconds, refurbs,

That's good, but don't be surprised to find some vendors reluctant to
admit they sell to liquidators. I bought a thermidistat from someone
on Ebay after doing as much checking up as I could. I know the unit
came from a liquidator because the price was below cost. I learned
that by calling the manufacturer.


If buying from some odd 3rd party, yes there's substantially
higher risk of having problems. "Below cost" doesn't really
mean much though, depends on how they determine cost. They
could easily liquidate excess stock in bulk at a lower than
normal cost, just to be rid of the items in one transaction
and still wish to preserve their regular profit margin on
further sales... which is another reason to sell one large
lot, so it doesn't look like 50% of buyers in same location
are getting a different price than the rest, the stock is
diverted to another channel.

After I got the unit I called again to see if it was liquidated and
the reason for liquidation. The product line manager I spoke with
would not cooperate, claiming that the company did not sell to
liquidators. When I asked how someone on Ebay could routinely sell the
unit under cost, the person got turned off.

The unit turned out to be free from defects, either design or
manufacturing defects, so I got a perfectly good unit for less than it
costs to make it. It was likely a contractor bankruptcy liquidation so
the units were perfectly good.


How can you know for certain what it cost to make it?
Volume manufacturing, particularly of parts then sold as
excess, overruns, etc, can be pretty cheap per unit. The
cost was the design, manufacturing infrastructure to begin
with... once a line is running, cranking out a few thousand
more units may be a quite minor cost, especially compared to
ceasing production to repeat whole process of design and
retool or depreciate the value of an old model by releasing
a new one meant to cover same purpose.

Then you know how to shop wisely.

You and I are saying basically the same thing, only I am saying it out
loud.


But, you are also buying off ebay... which is a higher risk
still. I don't mind paying a few bucks more for some things
like a thermostat, though I still have the old one in the
basement as a backup if the newer one fails... newer being
all electronic, substantially more failure points so I'll
just keep the old mechanical as a backup.
 
"Below cost" doesn't really
mean much though, depends on how they determine cost.

The manufacturer knows what it costs them to make it.
They could easily liquidate excess stock in bulk at a lower than
normal cost, just to be rid of the items in one transaction
and still wish to preserve their regular profit margin on
further sales... which is another reason to sell one large
lot, so it doesn't look like 50% of buyers in same location
are getting a different price than the rest, the stock is
diverted to another channel.

In this case that was not what had happened. The product is still
available at retail. The date code on the unit I got was quite recent
too - just a few months old.
How can you know for certain what it cost to make it?

I aksed the product line manager and was told that my price was "well
below" the actual cost to manufacture the unit. But that is far as I
got because the company must have had a policy of "need to know" and I
was not included.
But, you are also buying off ebay... which is a higher risk
still.

Actually that is the only sensitive item I have ever bought on Ebay,
and then only because the price was so attractive and I watched the
guy sell one per auction cycle and no one complained. He answered all
my questions truthfully and even agreed with my Zero Tolerance Mail
Order Policy, which is backed up wth the promise of charging back to
my credit card if I am not 100% satisfied. I have had to do that on a
couple other occasions (not Ebay) and believe me it makes things
happen very quickly.
I don't mind paying a few bucks more for some things like a thermostat

This was not a thermostat - I can get one of those at the local
stores. This is a special design thermidistat - combination thermostat
and dehumidistat. If you set it up properly it can regulate on the dew
point, which is what determines comfort in a hot high-humidity
environment. Keeping careful records of actual run time I figure I
save at least $300 per hot season and I make no sacrifice on comfort.

The reason is because conventional thermostats waste electricity. For
example, a conventional thermostat will run the air conditioner for 8
hours when 6 hours is sufficient to produce a comfortable environment.
It will be warmer inside but it will still be comfortable. All it
takes is to run the unit for a few minutes less each cycle and the
savings add up. But that won't happen with a conventional thermostat
and still maintain comfort. You have to regulate on humidity with
temperature acting as a lower limit so it won't run away.
though I still have the old one in the
basement as a backup if the newer one fails... newer being
all electronic, substantially more failure points so I'll
just keep the old mechanical as a backup.

You can use a conventional thermostat if you live in a normal humidity
environment, but if you live in a subtropical environment like
Houston, you need to control humidity. Before I got the thermidistat I
rigged a combination electronic thermostat and mechanical dehumidistat
and they worked if the sensible heat was the same. However I had to
shift the setpoints manually twice a day to accomodate the difference
in sensible heat for day versus night.

That's when I decided to get the thermidistat because it has a
mechanism internally to deal with sensible heat differences - but only
if you set it up properly. All this is undocumented so you have to
understand how it all works together to pull it off. The trick is to
set it up for short cycles and take advantage of the internal limit of
4 cycles per hour. That let's you cool to comfort using humidity as
the variable without wasting overcooling which is what wastes
electricity.

If I had the interest and the equipment I would implement all this in
the computer but it is not easy to come by the right instrumentation
economically, so I rely on the thermidistat to do the job.
Measurements of the run time indicate that I have pretty much squeezed
the best I can out of the situation. As little as 1F higher setpoint
results in an uncomfortable environment and only saves about 1/2 hour
runtime per day. So I feel confident I am about as close as I can get
to the best tradeoff between runtime and comfort.

In case you are wondering why I go to all this trouble, my a/c
consumes 5 KW and electricity costs about 14 cents - and that's with
one of the deregulated resellers - the lowest price I can find. So if
I save 2 hours per day runtime, that's $1.50 per day which is $45 per
month or about $300 per 6 1/2 month hot season. The thermidistat cost
me $98 including shipping and I have used it for two seasons, so you
can see how much I have saved and not sacrificed one bit of comfort. I
never liked it so cold anyway - just dry.
 
GT said:
Of 20GB, 3GB is free. Defragmentation - I used to use defragmentation
tools

It seems like the problem is right at the end of 3GB <bg>

1. Hard drive is so cheap these days for us being cheap <g>

2. Windows requires disk space for swapping, and swapping helps to speed
thing up.




I have enough RAM to turn off virtual memory and force everything into RAM.
Makes things much faster. I don't think this is the cause of the original
problem as it didn't used to do this!

I don't want to buy another hard disk - the Samsung Spinpoint I have now
runs silently and I want my system to stay that way!
 
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