W
William Ryan
You can certainly import Laborers, but Labor?
Stan said:
M
Marc Scheuner [MVP ADSI]
Many foreign companies export jobs over here too. Every time things get tight, downsizing
Absolutely - several large companies here realized that yes - the
actual implementation / coding might be cheaper done in India, but the
addtional efforts it takes to
a) describe the problem so that someone entirely foreign to any and
all local customs will be able to understand and implement properly
b) deal with cultural differences, the additional communication
required
c) fully and truly test it to make sure it's done as expected
ends up costing more, than doing it here in the first place. Several
large scale outsourcing plans have been cancelled or scaled back
significantly, because of these problems.
This is not to say India doesn't have smart programmers, quite the
contrary - but I wouldn't claim I could write software that handles
and knows all about their culture and "everyday way of life" either -
it's just that much more challenging to do that.....
Marc
Absolutely - several large companies here realized that yes - the
actual implementation / coding might be cheaper done in India, but the
addtional efforts it takes to
a) describe the problem so that someone entirely foreign to any and
all local customs will be able to understand and implement properly
b) deal with cultural differences, the additional communication
required
c) fully and truly test it to make sure it's done as expected
ends up costing more, than doing it here in the first place. Several
large scale outsourcing plans have been cancelled or scaled back
significantly, because of these problems.
This is not to say India doesn't have smart programmers, quite the
contrary - but I wouldn't claim I could write software that handles
and knows all about their culture and "everyday way of life" either -
it's just that much more challenging to do that.....
Marc
M
Marc Scheuner [MVP ADSI]
I have written Delphi for years. I am finding it harder and harder to find
Well, right now, it seems IT is tight pretty much everywhere, no
matter what you do (unless you're a highly specialized SAP
consultant.....)
I don't think Delphi is a bad choice, quite the contrary - but C# is
quite interesting, too, and being able to work in two languages and
know them real well is a clear boon - maybe not today and tomorrow,
but definitely once the economy picks up again.
I found myself going from Delphi to C# in January, after I couldn't
find any decent Delphi jobs - I must say, C# is the first C-style
language that I can somehow bare to program in.
A lot of stuff in C# and the .NET framework is very "homey", to a
Delphite - much more so than to a "straight" VB or C++ programmer.
Heck, it's still Anders Hejlsberg behind the framework, right? He said
it right: " It's hard to unlearn certain things, when they feel so
right".
You'll feel quite a home in C# and the .NET framework right away, I'd
say - go for it, it can't hurt. Especially seeing that Delphi for .NET
is just around the corner, and that'll be the ultimate combination of
the greatest language and one of the greatest frameworks around!
Marc
Well, right now, it seems IT is tight pretty much everywhere, no
matter what you do (unless you're a highly specialized SAP
consultant.....)
I don't think Delphi is a bad choice, quite the contrary - but C# is
quite interesting, too, and being able to work in two languages and
know them real well is a clear boon - maybe not today and tomorrow,
but definitely once the economy picks up again.
I found myself going from Delphi to C# in January, after I couldn't
find any decent Delphi jobs - I must say, C# is the first C-style
language that I can somehow bare to program in.
A lot of stuff in C# and the .NET framework is very "homey", to a
Delphite - much more so than to a "straight" VB or C++ programmer.
Heck, it's still Anders Hejlsberg behind the framework, right? He said
it right: " It's hard to unlearn certain things, when they feel so
right".
You'll feel quite a home in C# and the .NET framework right away, I'd
say - go for it, it can't hurt. Especially seeing that Delphi for .NET
is just around the corner, and that'll be the ultimate combination of
the greatest language and one of the greatest frameworks around!
Marc
S
Scott C. Reynolds
I have to respectfully disagree with all of you. And a lot of this
is pure
If you'll notice, I advised him to upgrade his technology skills as well
as other skills, and told him that jobs were out there. But I think
that while you are right in some respects, you are also being naive...it
is a simple fact that many lower-level programming jobs are being done
in India, rather than here, and all of the companies you mentioned are
doing it. But then again, the same goes for call-center and
tech-support, and if you get your taxes done through a major service
(not H&R Block...the other one I can't think of right now) they just
shipped about 35,000 accounting positions to India, because the CPAs are
cheaper, and the position requires 100% math and US tax understanding,
which can be taught, and Zero customer interaction.
In software, the jobs that are being filled in India right are almost
invariably the lower-level, straight "coding" jobs, and the jobs that
will produce products for places other than the US. That's not to say
that they aren't skilled programmers, or that they aren't doing new and
advanced stuff, what I mean is that if you have a choice of a guy who
can only do C++ development here in the US, and has no other real skills
beyond programming...and a guy with the exact same skill set in India
(probably with a CS degree to boot) who is willing to work for less, is
less likely to jump jobs on you in a year, who would you pick? And
while it is happening it's not exactly an epidemic. And even if it does
become an epidemic...the simple fact is that we have to take our futures
into our own hands, adapt to the new environment, upgrade our skills,
and move on. Every time an industry has taken to "outshoring", it is
always several years after the "heyday" of that industry here in
America, which means that when you move on to the next thing, which we
never seem to have a problem creating when the need arises, then you
have a few good years to prepare.
The only major problem is that a lot of people jumped on the software
bandwagon during the boom, and those people without the requisite skills
or experience or schooling are getting weeded out. That includes people
who do COBOL. I know a guy in Boston who hasn't worked in 2 years.
Why? Because he is a COBOL jockey, and is a holdover from the Y2K
scare. He refuses to upgrade his skills to something as simple even as
VB, knows nothing about web-based development, and continues to expect
that he can command salaries of 100K+...for COBOL. as far as I'm
concerned, his state of unemployment, and the rest who will not upgrade
their skills, is not the fault of the economy, the job market, the
Indians, George Bush, the dotcom bust...it is their own. When I was in
Boston, it took me a couple of months to find a job...because every
ASP/VB/Web Job had about 500-1000 guys just like me looking to fill it.
So I used that couple of months to learn .net and web services, and lo
and behold, I got a .net job.
And frankly, to the original poster, I think the attitude of not wanting
to waste time learning a new platform if you won't find a job in it is
problem #1. If we all, as a group, expect to be gainfully employed in
our current career of choice, we must all be learning and adopting new
technologies at all times. I mean...to learn c#/asp.net you don't even
need to spend money. Go download WebMatrix, and then hit up
4guysfromrolla.com and go to town. If the Delphi jobs aren't out there,
then see what is, and learn that. There's healthcare jobs, so learn
HIPAA regs and concentrate on HL7. There's Biotech jobs, so go pick up
a book on BioInformatics. Write some mobile code, or as William said,
Compact Framework stuff. The time is passed where we can all just be
"programmers"...you have to read the business mags and see what's being
done out there, what's in demand, and what you can do to predict a trend
and come out ahead of the game. Get outside your comfort zone and grow.
<snip>
is pure
If you'll notice, I advised him to upgrade his technology skills as well
as other skills, and told him that jobs were out there. But I think
that while you are right in some respects, you are also being naive...it
is a simple fact that many lower-level programming jobs are being done
in India, rather than here, and all of the companies you mentioned are
doing it. But then again, the same goes for call-center and
tech-support, and if you get your taxes done through a major service
(not H&R Block...the other one I can't think of right now) they just
shipped about 35,000 accounting positions to India, because the CPAs are
cheaper, and the position requires 100% math and US tax understanding,
which can be taught, and Zero customer interaction.
In software, the jobs that are being filled in India right are almost
invariably the lower-level, straight "coding" jobs, and the jobs that
will produce products for places other than the US. That's not to say
that they aren't skilled programmers, or that they aren't doing new and
advanced stuff, what I mean is that if you have a choice of a guy who
can only do C++ development here in the US, and has no other real skills
beyond programming...and a guy with the exact same skill set in India
(probably with a CS degree to boot) who is willing to work for less, is
less likely to jump jobs on you in a year, who would you pick? And
while it is happening it's not exactly an epidemic. And even if it does
become an epidemic...the simple fact is that we have to take our futures
into our own hands, adapt to the new environment, upgrade our skills,
and move on. Every time an industry has taken to "outshoring", it is
always several years after the "heyday" of that industry here in
America, which means that when you move on to the next thing, which we
never seem to have a problem creating when the need arises, then you
have a few good years to prepare.
The only major problem is that a lot of people jumped on the software
bandwagon during the boom, and those people without the requisite skills
or experience or schooling are getting weeded out. That includes people
who do COBOL. I know a guy in Boston who hasn't worked in 2 years.
Why? Because he is a COBOL jockey, and is a holdover from the Y2K
scare. He refuses to upgrade his skills to something as simple even as
VB, knows nothing about web-based development, and continues to expect
that he can command salaries of 100K+...for COBOL. as far as I'm
concerned, his state of unemployment, and the rest who will not upgrade
their skills, is not the fault of the economy, the job market, the
Indians, George Bush, the dotcom bust...it is their own. When I was in
Boston, it took me a couple of months to find a job...because every
ASP/VB/Web Job had about 500-1000 guys just like me looking to fill it.
So I used that couple of months to learn .net and web services, and lo
and behold, I got a .net job.
And frankly, to the original poster, I think the attitude of not wanting
to waste time learning a new platform if you won't find a job in it is
problem #1. If we all, as a group, expect to be gainfully employed in
our current career of choice, we must all be learning and adopting new
technologies at all times. I mean...to learn c#/asp.net you don't even
need to spend money. Go download WebMatrix, and then hit up
4guysfromrolla.com and go to town. If the Delphi jobs aren't out there,
then see what is, and learn that. There's healthcare jobs, so learn
HIPAA regs and concentrate on HL7. There's Biotech jobs, so go pick up
a book on BioInformatics. Write some mobile code, or as William said,
Compact Framework stuff. The time is passed where we can all just be
"programmers"...you have to read the business mags and see what's being
done out there, what's in demand, and what you can do to predict a trend
and come out ahead of the game. Get outside your comfort zone and grow.
William said:
<snip>
J
james
Bill,
So all those people out there with more experience than you who are
now un-employed and cannot even get a call back and have even given up
looking must have somthing wrong with them huh? The world smiles
on you so everyone else must be broken. What's that like I wonder ?
JIM
So all those people out there with more experience than you who are
now un-employed and cannot even get a call back and have even given up
looking must have somthing wrong with them huh? The world smiles
on you so everyone else must be broken. What's that like I wonder ?
JIM
J
james
Maybe you should talk to Bill, he seems to have it going on 
JIM
JIM
W
William Ryan
Not necessarily that something is wrong with them, but it's not jobs being
done in India that's the cause. There are people with more experience than
me employed. There are people with less experience than my employed. My
point is that there are plenty of jobs out there. I can think of ten
reasons without trying why an experienced programmer might not get a call
back. Experience, in many cases, if it's not tempered with indications of
knowledge of newer technologies is a big reason many never get hired. Lot's
of company's don't want one or two trick ponys who are set in their way.
Of these people that can't get a call back, are you telling me that they
know intimately, ASP.NET, C#, VB.NET, Compact Framework etc? If they do and
can't get hired, I'll be glad to forward them some recruiters names who
would love to speak to them.
done in India that's the cause. There are people with more experience than
me employed. There are people with less experience than my employed. My
point is that there are plenty of jobs out there. I can think of ten
reasons without trying why an experienced programmer might not get a call
back. Experience, in many cases, if it's not tempered with indications of
knowledge of newer technologies is a big reason many never get hired. Lot's
of company's don't want one or two trick ponys who are set in their way.
Of these people that can't get a call back, are you telling me that they
know intimately, ASP.NET, C#, VB.NET, Compact Framework etc? If they do and
can't get hired, I'll be glad to forward them some recruiters names who
would love to speak to them.
J
james
Bill,
1. Not all jobs are going off shore, they are going right here to H1B's and
the like
2. Yes please send me the contact info for your recruiters to
(e-mail address removed) thanks
JIM
1. Not all jobs are going off shore, they are going right here to H1B's and
the like
2. Yes please send me the contact info for your recruiters to
(e-mail address removed) thanks
JIM
S
Stan
Well what are the laborers going to do once imported?