Dell Inspirion refuses to charge battery.

[Doug]

| > Sometimes you get what you pay for. Return the battery to Kahlon for
credit
| > (since it's guaranteed) then buy a new or reconditioned battery from
Dell
| > instead.
|
| Thank Robear! I think I'll return it to Kahlon. On second thoughts
| though, its Dell who's the bad guy here not Kahlon. I might just fight
| it out. Screw my depreciated 700$! I'm installing Linux AND doing a
| BIOS upgrade. Let's see what I get. Either I end up with an expensive
| doorstop or I defeat Dell's monopolistic scheming!
|
| --
| Rahul

You assume way too much. Your problem is entirely with the vendor who
supplied your battery.

As an owner of several Dells I can assure you that they will work with a
(properly constructed) battery from any vendor.

Your assertion that the "if I added Samsung RAM, or a Segate(sic) HDD the
BIOS would complain" is pure fantasy. I've upgraded all my Dells RAM and
harddrives with third party hardware from New Egg et. al....

There is nothing special or proprietary about Dell computers that forces you
to buy hardware from Dell. All your blathering about "Dell's monopolistic
scheming." is crap you made up in your head with zero basis in fact.

If you spent a little time in the Dell Newsgroup you would be aware that it
is common practice for people to buy baseline Dell systems on special and
upgrade them with less expensive stuff from third party vendors.

If you want to buy a battery that will work for less than the price Dell
charges try Pacific Battery.
http://www.pacificbattery.com/delle1505.html for your model. Their service
is good and they stand behind what they sell.

On the subject of assuming way too much. You said "I'll try the Dell forums
too. Its just that I don't expect too much
help from Dell since this might be counterproductive to their intentions."
Dell Forums are user to user forums and an excellent source of information.
They are moderated for TOS content but otherwise are not "run" by Dell.

BTW your problem certainty isn't operating system dependent, your computers
charging hardware doesn't know or care what OS is installed in your computer
or if in fact a harddrive is even present. A BIOS update that doesn't
specifically address the problem you're having won't do the trick either.

There is a very good reason for the computers charger to have to properly
identify the smart circuit inside the battery before it will be able to
charge it. LiON batteries improperly handled make very potent incendiary
devices. Your problem is entirely with the vendor who supplied your battery.

 

[windmap]

Try this
http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/DellPartsFamily.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=gen

 

[JohnO]

Thanks Andrew! That's again the confusing point. I've seen many tips
that claim I ought to completely drain the battery to avoid any memory
effects (at least the first few times) Other's say that draining a
battery is bad.

That advice is totally wrong regarding Li-Ion batteries...Li-Ion has no
memory. Draining them completely ONCE simply allows the charging circuits to
calibrate themselves to the capacity of the battery. Keep them charged!
(applies to cell phones, too)

Li-Ion is like lead-acid....they get their max life by staying near full
charge as much as possible. NiCad and NiMH are the ones with memory...and
they haven't been used in laptops for more than a decade.

-John O

 

[M.I.5¾]

Thanks Andrew! That's again the confusing point. I've seen many tips
that claim I ought to completely drain the battery to avoid any memory
effects (at least the first few times) Other's say that draining a
battery is bad.

Li-ion batteries do not suffer from any memory effect. It should not have
been possible to discharge the battery below its lower charge limit (in
practice every laptop puts the zero charge point a bit above the lower
limit). If the OP did succeed in discharging it so, the battery or the
charger would prevent it from being charged (and correctly so - its risky).

I believe the replacement battery was fully charged (they are manufactured
that way and lose little charge in storage) and it was this charge that the
OP used up. These batteries never require a 12 hour initial charge in spite
of what some people may tell you. If they do charge, they will take
whatever charge they require and then stop charging.

Dell have past history of producing proprietary parts and I would suggest it
is likely that the laptop has detected a non Dell battery and refused to
charge it. Some suppliers do this because there are rogue battery suppliers
out there that omit important safety circuits from their batteries.

I know nothing of the OP's chosen supplier, Kahlon, but I would suggest that
the best course of action is to take the matter up with them advising them
that their battery won't charge and see what they say.

 

[M.I.5¾]

Sorry PD43; it wasn't my intention to mis-post or hijack the group. For
me it seemed like a relevant technical issue: "How does WinXP
communicate with the battery?" It's almost akin to removing
Dell-installed-malware. Its my laptop now that I bought it from Dell and
how can I remove all pieces of Dell junk-software (that I suspect caused
this) from it and just leave a "clean" WinXP install?

Try:

http://www.yorkspace.com/pc-de-crapifier/

Originally written for Dell, it works on other platforms as well.

 

[JohnO]

Dell have past history of producing proprietary parts and I would suggest

it is likely that the laptop has detected a non Dell battery and refused
to charge it. Some suppliers do this because there are rogue battery
suppliers out there that omit important safety circuits from their
batteries.

Replacement packs are certainly expensive, but if I were Dell I might
consider the same thing, only because the day that el-cheapo fails and burns
a 3rd degree hole on your lap and gives you a bad haircut at the same time,
the news will say Dell, not el-cheapo battery.

When I got this Dell Latitude D600, their user forums were full of stories
about batteries lasting 14 months. I've had this system for four years now,
and while the two battery packs have lost some of their stuff, they are
still at about 85% of new. This machine sits on my desk all day, every day,
attached to a charger, and I take it home to do email and some work from the
batteries. The Inspiron I had prior to this had a five year old battery,
same story. Treat the batteries right, they last a long time.

-John O

 

[Rahul]

You assume way too much. Your problem is entirely with the vendor who
supplied your battery.
As an owner of several Dells I can assure you that they will work with a
(properly constructed) battery from any vendor.
If you want to buy a battery that will work for less than the price Dell
charges try Pacific Battery.http://www.pacificbattery.com/delle1505.htmlfor your model. Their service
is good and they stand behind what they sell.

Thanks Doug for your advice! I will try these guys out. I am not tied
to Kahlon; I just need some non-Dell options (just as we have for most
other computer peripherals)

Dell Forums are user to user forums and an excellent source of information.
They are moderated for TOS content but otherwise are not "run" by Dell.

Yes. Makes sense. My fault. I was just driven by Dell-hate. Maybe the
guys on the Dell forums will have some other constructive inputs. I'm
trying there today.

BTW your problem certainty isn't operating system dependent, your computers
charging hardware doesn't know or care what OS is installed in your computer
or if in fact a harddrive is even present. A BIOS update that doesn't
specifically address the problem you're having won't do the trick either.

Some level in the computer boot process makes a check, produces the
warning, and allows me to proceed on F1. All I could think of was
BIOS or OS. Maybe I was wrong. What do you think has the code that
does that?

 

[Rahul]

I believe the replacement battery was fully charged (they are manufactured
that way and lose little charge in storage) and it was this charge that the
OP used up.

Thanks MI5!I think that is what happened. I ran the 4 hours on the
initial charge. My laptop can use the battery but my charger cannot
charge it.

Dell have past history of producing proprietary parts and I would suggest it
is likely that the laptop has detected a non Dell battery and refused to
charge it. Some suppliers do this because there are rogue battery suppliers
out there that omit important safety circuits from their batteries.

I agree. But all suppliers aren't rouge, are they? A blanket refusal
on working with external suppliers sounds unfair.

 

[Rahul]

Replacement packs are certainly expensive, but if I were Dell I might
consider the same thing, only because the day that el-cheapo fails and burns
a 3rd degree hole on your lap and gives you a bad haircut at the same time,
the news will say Dell, not el-cheapo battery.

Yes. I'd do it too from a commercial viewpoint to avoid the attendant
bad publicity. But a competitive market is always a good situation.
Even for batteries. It might not be "el-cheapo" but a "nimble-
efficient-supplier" who might drive the battery costs down.

Treat the batteries right, they last a long time.

Is it really common for others to mistreat them? Aren't these
batteries pretty robust and with features that protect them against
most user errors (over/ undercharging etc.)

 

[JohnO]

Treat the batteries right, they last a long time.

Is it really common for others to mistreat them? Aren't these
batteries pretty robust and with features that protect them against
most user errors (over/ undercharging etc.)

Yeah, you definitely can't overcharge a Li-Ion, the results are exciting so
the chargers are pretty smart about that. That's why you can leave a Li-Ion
plugged in indefinitely, unlike the old NiCad power tools and such.

Running Li-Ion empty and leaving it there for a long time is no good.
Running it all the way down, every day, isn't good for their longevity
either, but that's why we have the batteries in the first place. Leaving a
Li-Ion pack in a hot car fully discharged is bad, too. That's not abuse, but
it does affect their life span.

-John O

 

[Unknown]

'Draining a battery completely is the worst thing you could do to one' is a
completely erroneous statement..
That is only true for a lead-acid battery such as in a car. NiCads and NiMh
are greatly helped by
draining them.

 

[Paul]

'Draining a battery completely is the worst thing you could do to one' is a
completely erroneous statement..
That is only true for a lead-acid battery such as in a car. NiCads and NiMh
are greatly helped by
draining them.

Yes, if done correctly. You should not drain a multicell NiCad battery from
the end terminals, like this. If the batteries are mismatched, such that
one cell drains before the others, that one cell will be reversed biased,
and will develop an internal short.

Wrong way to discharge a NiCad battery pack. One cell may be
reverse biased. The effect gets worse as time goes by, increasing
the odds that one cell will end up with an internal short.

| | |
________| |___________| |___________| |_________
| | | | | |
^ | | | ^
| |
+-----------------/\ /\ /\ -----------------+
\/ \/ \/

A lot of electronic devices, disconnect their load when they detect
the level of charge getting low. And the purpose of that, is to
try to prevent damage to the battery.

The right way, is to address each cell independently, with a resistor.
The resistor should be selected, to not exceed the maximum discharge
rate for the cell (which is pretty substantial for NiCads).

The right way, is to place a resistor across individual cells.
The other two cells cannot be reverse biased this way. This
requires access to the terminals on each cell, which may be
sealed in plastic.

| | |
________| |___________| |___________| |_________
| | | | | |
^ | ^ | |
| |
+--/\ /\ /\ --+
\/ \/ \/

My battery charger, only takes the cells down to the "knee voltage"
when conditioning cells, and doesn't run the cells flat. Around
1V or 1.1V per cell or so, it disconnects the load. I don't remember
the exact voltage value it uses, but it doesn't run them to zero.

See "Maintaining a nicad pack" here, if you don't believe me.

http://loke.as.arizona.edu/~ckulesa/nicads.html

HTH,
Paul

 

[Farad'n]

The battery on my 2 year old, out-of-warranty, Dell Inspirion E1505 was
almost dead ( about 6 min. charge retention). A new Dell battery was
around 200$ and hence I bought a replacement battery from Kahlon
(guaranteed to be E1505 compatible) for half the price.

After I swapped in my new Kahlon battery my Dell beeped on boot-up and
issued a warning of the sort: "Unrecognized battery type; Will not be
able to charge". Pressing F1 allowed me to ignore this and continue. I
kept the AC charger connected for about 12 hrs to get the battery its
recommended initial charge. Subsequently I disconnected AC power and
proceeded to work on the battery till it drained fully (about 4 hours).
Laptop worked fine. (all the while the battery charging LED blinks
green/orange)

On next recharges same warning recurs. F1 allows me to bypass. Only
difference now the battery does not charge at all. On AC adapter
disconnect the laptop immediately dies. Double clicking on the power bar
gives me all the battery details including Amp-hrs, manufacturer etc.
Charge %age always remains at zero.

I have no clue how to fix this! I suspect its the right battery but some
Dell trick that prevents me from using anything other than their
expensive "official" battery. No proof but a strong suspicion. Unfair.

Debug steps so far:

1. Tried booting from a Knoppix Live Linux CD. Still same warning. Will
work only so long as I have the adapter. /proc/acpi/battery recognizes
all battery details. Charge %age remains zero.

2. Tried BIOS. No battery recalibration options. No user-changeable
battery settings at all there. Probably Dell "sanitized" the BIOS to
some custom-version.

3. Only one BIOS flash upgrade listed on Dell website for this model. Its
only an optional update. Too chicken to try it yet lest I end up with an
"expensive doorstop"

Any help at all is greatly appreciated! If I can help it I do not want
to pay Dell 200$ to inject new life into a laptop that cost $700 2 years
ago!

What does any of this have to do with XP? NOTHING.

Ask elsewhere.

 

[M.I.5¾]

Replacement packs are certainly expensive, but if I were Dell I might
consider the same thing, only because the day that el-cheapo fails and
burns a 3rd degree hole on your lap and gives you a bad haircut at the
same time, the news will say Dell, not el-cheapo battery.

When I got this Dell Latitude D600, their user forums were full of stories
about batteries lasting 14 months. I've had this system for four years
now, and while the two battery packs have lost some of their stuff, they
are still at about 85% of new. This machine sits on my desk all day, every
day, attached to a charger, and I take it home to do email and some work
from the batteries. The Inspiron I had prior to this had a five year old
battery, same story. Treat the batteries right, they last a long time.

In spite of claims of overcharging, the secret to long battery life is not
to allow the batteries to become warm. If the design of the laptop is such
that internal components heat up the battery (even if it isn't doing
anything), then the life will be considerably shortened. In general, it is
adviseable to remove the battery when on AC, if the battery is not being
charged. However, if the design of the laptop does not warm up the battery,
then it is not necessary to remove it.

My oldest Li-ion battery is 14 years old this year and still going strong.

 

[M.I.5¾]

Yeah, you definitely can't overcharge a Li-Ion, the results are exciting
so the chargers are pretty smart about that. That's why you can leave a
Li-Ion plugged in indefinitely, unlike the old NiCad power tools and such.

Running Li-Ion empty and leaving it there for a long time is no good.

Although true, the reasons are more to do with over discharge than anything
else.

Running it all the way down, every day, isn't good for their longevity
either,

Why? This is what they are designed for. Fully discharging (without
overdischarging) is no more detrimental to a Li-ion battery than half or
quarter discharging it before recharging. Any other advice on the subject
is a myth.

Leaving a Li-Ion pack in a hot car fully discharged is bad, too. That's
not abuse, but it does affect their life span.

It is abuse. Li-ion batteries do not like being subjected to heat. Their
life span is a function of temperature. Keep a Li-ion battery much above 30
C and can kill it in a year.

The other thing Li-ion batteries don't like is *not* being used. Lack of
use causes the cell internal resistance to rise, and this can give the
monitor circuit the impression that the battery is discharged whenever
significant current is drawn.

 

[M.I.5¾]

I believe the replacement battery was fully charged (they are manufactured
that way and lose little charge in storage) and it was this charge that
the
OP used up.

Thanks MI5!I think that is what happened. I ran the 4 hours on the
initial charge. My laptop can use the battery but my charger cannot
charge it.

Dell have past history of producing proprietary parts and I would suggest
it
is likely that the laptop has detected a non Dell battery and refused to
charge it. Some suppliers do this because there are rogue battery
suppliers
out there that omit important safety circuits from their batteries.

I agree. But all suppliers aren't rouge, are they? A blanket refusal
on working with external suppliers sounds unfair.

 

[M.I.5¾]

Yes, if done correctly. You should not drain a multicell NiCad battery
from
the end terminals, like this. If the batteries are mismatched, such that
one cell drains before the others, that one cell will be reversed biased,
and will develop an internal short.

Wrong way to discharge a NiCad battery pack. One cell may be
reverse biased. The effect gets worse as time goes by, increasing
the odds that one cell will end up with an internal short.

| | |
________| |___________| |___________| |_________
| | | | | |
^ | | | ^
| |
+-----------------/\ /\ /\ -----------------+
\/ \/ \/

A lot of electronic devices, disconnect their load when they detect
the level of charge getting low. And the purpose of that, is to
try to prevent damage to the battery.

The right way, is to address each cell independently, with a resistor.
The resistor should be selected, to not exceed the maximum discharge
rate for the cell (which is pretty substantial for NiCads).

The right way, is to place a resistor across individual cells.
The other two cells cannot be reverse biased this way. This
requires access to the terminals on each cell, which may be
sealed in plastic.

| | |
________| |___________| |___________| |_________
| | | | | |
^ | ^ | |
| |
+--/\ /\ /\ --+
\/ \/ \/

My battery charger, only takes the cells down to the "knee voltage"
when conditioning cells, and doesn't run the cells flat. Around
1V or 1.1V per cell or so, it disconnects the load. I don't remember
the exact voltage value it uses, but it doesn't run them to zero.

See "Maintaining a nicad pack" here, if you don't believe me.

http://loke.as.arizona.edu/~ckulesa/nicads.html

ASCII graphics don't work for those of us with proportional spacing.

The minimum discharge voltage for NiCd cells is lower than you state. Its
0.0 volts. Nothing. Not a sausage. In fact some suppliers recommend
putting cells into storage discharged and *short circuited*.

The usually quoted minimum voltage is a level intended to avoid reverse
charging individual cells in a battery pack. Unfortunately, it is the
nature of NiCd cells that they become mismatched pretty quickly (even if
they start completely matched). Unfortunately Ni-MH aren't much better in
this regard.

 

[JohnO]

Although true, the reasons are more to do with over discharge than
anything else.


Why? This is what they are designed for. Fully discharging (without
overdischarging) is no more detrimental to a Li-ion battery than half or
quarter discharging it before recharging. Any other advice on the subject
is a myth.

Depending on the brand of cell, and I can't tell you one from another, they
only have so many cycles in them. NiCad will do a couple thousand or more,
Li-Ion isn't likely to survive more than 200-300 full cycles, less abuse
factors. Maybe that's because of the heat involved with charging, but we
have no control over that, usually.

Looks like we both have a knack for making them last, while others seem to
run through them much faster.

-John O

 

[M.I.5¾]

Depending on the brand of cell, and I can't tell you one from another,
they only have so many cycles in them. NiCad will do a couple thousand or
more, Li-Ion isn't likely to survive more than 200-300 full cycles, less
abuse factors. Maybe that's because of the heat involved with charging,
but we have no control over that, usually.

The official life of Li-ion cell technology is currently 300-500 cycles, the
exact value depending on a number of factors, but assuming otherwise ideal
conditions. That is 300-500 full discharges and charges or 600-1000 half
discharges and charges, or any other combination - it equates to the same
thing. As Li-ion batteries have an efficiency of around 99% there should be
no appreciable heat generated by charging the battery. Li-ion batteries
start degrading the moment they roll of the production line. The
manufacturers are very reticent about making statements on time and
temperature related life matters and many supposed authorities have
exagerated the issue out of all proportion. I have several examples of
batteries that, according to these 'authorities', should no longer hold any
charge at all. Interestingly, they are either all early examples where the
fashion was to put the monitoring circuitry in the device that was powered
and not the battery or they are bare cell packs. I also have had some
complete packs where they have failed more suddenly that I believe can be
accounted for by cell degradation - all of which have internal monitoring
circuitry. I offer this with no further comment.

Ni-Cd officially have a life of 1000 cycles but they are far more influenced
by other factors and only give anything approaching this life under ideal
conditions. Ni-Cd batteries are only ~70% efficient and should get quite
warm when charged. However they don't get as warm as they should because
the charge reaction is endothermic and absorbs that heat. Once charged, of
course, the charge current can do nothing else and they get warm. I should
point out that Ni-MH batteries, which has a similar efficiency get much
warmer than can be accounted for by the current and efficiency because their
charge reaction is exothermic. This is why Ni-MH batteries should be
temperature monitored during charge.

 

[M.I.5¾]

What does any of this have to do with XP? NOTHING.

Ask elsewhere.

He's asking about *hardware*, ****wit. Can't you get it through that addled
brain of yours that a newsgroup that has *hardware* in the title is an
appropriate place to post questions about *hardware*.