M
Mark
Bill Martin -- Remove "NOSPAM" from address said:
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A
Arthur Entlich
I smell a Xerox deal hatching ;-)
Art
Art
Bill,
How many color prints will you be making per month?
Dennis
A
Arthur Entlich
Coup said:Art .. you're getting bleary-eyed...lol Reread my #1 below that you
quoted in your question ;-)
I am indeed bleary-eyed... I was up for about 36 hours at that point...
and you are right, I missed it. I read everything but that last
sentence, where you went into them not being Lexmarks.
The Fuji-Xerox printers have received some interest as perhaps a good
association between the two companies and their technologies.
I'm going to have to ask around for some print samples, as good as your
description is, it is hard to qualify an image production device without
seeing output.
I'll have to research it... however, why the heck is it so large? 17" x
17" x 30" high? wow.
Art
A
Arthur Entlich
Well, I think they are called color photocopiers, and they are big and
costly to make, not to mention they don't want to cut into that market,
which is probably were most of the money is.
In general, color photocopiers have less costly toner cartridges, but
the initial cost of the units are considerably higher.
Art
costly to make, not to mention they don't want to cut into that market,
which is probably were most of the money is.
In general, color photocopiers have less costly toner cartridges, but
the initial cost of the units are considerably higher.
Art
G
Guest
Arthur said:Well, I think they are called color photocopiers, and they are big and
costly to make, not to mention they don't want to cut into that market,
which is probably were most of the money is.
In general, color photocopiers have less costly toner cartridges, but
the initial cost of the units are considerably higher.
Art
----------------
A few years back I could have said the same about mono photocopiers.
Big expensive production machines you'd never have on your desk. Now
you do, and given the cheap print engine it's fairly trivial to add a
scanner and fax interface at very moderate extra expense. Which they've
been doing for some time now.
Do you see any reason at all that color laser printers won't follow
exactly the same trajectory? They've already cost/size reduced the
print engine to sit on your desk. Integrating a scanner/fax is
technologically trivial at this point if they see a market for it.
I've got to believe it's on their product road maps. They just need to
get the simple color laser printer out the door first.
Frankly I'd be surprised if color laser multifunctions don't come out
soon and drive the monos off the market.
Bill
C
Coup
I am indeed bleary-eyed... I was up for about 36 hours at that point...
and you are right, I missed it. I read everything but that last
sentence, where you went into them not being Lexmarks.
The Fuji-Xerox printers have received some interest as perhaps a good
association between the two companies and their technologies.
I'm going to have to ask around for some print samples, as good as your
description is, it is hard to qualify an image production device without
seeing output.
I'll have to research it... however, why the heck is it so large? 17" x
17" x 30" high? wow.
Art
Actually, I was exaggerating it turns out, the 3100cn is 17' x 17" x
22" high. The 3100cn adds the extra paper tray underneath that adds 4"
to it. Adding the available duplexer to it probably creates something
approaching the 30" tower.
Other weirdness (you have to wonder about the though processes that
results in some of this):
The 3000cn is 4" lower, missing the 250 sheet paper tray, but the
3100cn CANNOT BE OPERATED WITHOUT THE TRAY.
The 3100cn is actually about 73 lbs vs 56 for the 3000, virtually the
whole difference is the paper tray which is one hunk of a piece of
mostly metal....so most everything on this printer is built like a
tank... except
The fold out "support/stop flap" on the output tray at the top
couldn't possibly be any thinner or more flimsy plastic... this seems
to be becoming a 'tradition' with just about ever maker of printers...
is there some 'secret protocol' all printer companies have subscribed
to about this sort of thing? God forbid they add 2 oz. to the weight
and make this part out of stamped metal...
T
Timothy Lee
In message <[email protected]>, "Bill
cheaper to buy a multifunction A3 (approx 11" x 17") mono and an A3
colour laser for less than the equivalent multifunction colour A3.
I've been looking at this sort of thing and currently I reckon itsMartin -- Remove \"NOSPAM\" from address said:Do you see any reason at all that color laser printers won't follow
exactly the same trajectory? They've already cost/size reduced the
print engine to sit on your desk. Integrating a scanner/fax is
technologically trivial at this point if they see a market for it.
I've got to believe it's on their product road maps. They just need to
get the simple color laser printer out the door first.
Frankly I'd be surprised if color laser multifunctions don't come out
soon and drive the monos off the market.
cheaper to buy a multifunction A3 (approx 11" x 17") mono and an A3
colour laser for less than the equivalent multifunction colour A3.
A
Arthur Entlich
Actually, I do see several reasons they will not be here soon.
First off, color inkjet multifunction machines are very inexpensive to
make, are lightweight, and there target market is low volume users.
Color laser printers are big, and expensive to make. To reduce the
size, and add a scanner will require smaller toner cartridges. For low
volume users, it makes no sense. For larger volume users, the market
provides color photocopiers at considerably higher costs.
I see color photocopiers coming down in cost only if the manufacturers
go to a costly refilling system, like color laser printers. To do so,
requires a large enough demand, because the machines are still costly to
make. If they can't sell a LOT of very overpriced color toner
cartridges, simply put, they cannot afford to lower the cost of the copiers.
Since even relatively small toner cartridges provide thousands of copies
at 5% coverage, for small volume users, the manufacturers would end up
selling these machines at near cost, and never sell refill cartridges.
Large volume users will buy them only because they save money on
consumables, which means the price of the machines have to stay up to
pay for the cost of the machines.
I could be wrong. I never expected inkjet color printing to come to
anything more than a short transition to color laser... obviously that
was way off base. Don't bet the farm on my predictions, but for now, at
least, I think you may not be seeing these all in one color laser based
machines at reasonable costs for years to come.
Art
First off, color inkjet multifunction machines are very inexpensive to
make, are lightweight, and there target market is low volume users.
Color laser printers are big, and expensive to make. To reduce the
size, and add a scanner will require smaller toner cartridges. For low
volume users, it makes no sense. For larger volume users, the market
provides color photocopiers at considerably higher costs.
I see color photocopiers coming down in cost only if the manufacturers
go to a costly refilling system, like color laser printers. To do so,
requires a large enough demand, because the machines are still costly to
make. If they can't sell a LOT of very overpriced color toner
cartridges, simply put, they cannot afford to lower the cost of the copiers.
Since even relatively small toner cartridges provide thousands of copies
at 5% coverage, for small volume users, the manufacturers would end up
selling these machines at near cost, and never sell refill cartridges.
Large volume users will buy them only because they save money on
consumables, which means the price of the machines have to stay up to
pay for the cost of the machines.
I could be wrong. I never expected inkjet color printing to come to
anything more than a short transition to color laser... obviously that
was way off base. Don't bet the farm on my predictions, but for now, at
least, I think you may not be seeing these all in one color laser based
machines at reasonable costs for years to come.
Art
A
Arthur Entlich
But then you'd never have to buy a new part... those little flaps are
only available from Dell for $300 each! ;-)
Art
Coup wrote:
only available from Dell for $300 each! ;-)
Art
Coup wrote:
G
Guest
Arthur said:Actually, I do see several reasons they will not be here soon.
First off, color inkjet multifunction machines are very inexpensive to
make, are lightweight, and there target market is low volume users.
Color laser printers are big, and expensive to make. To reduce the
size, and add a scanner will require smaller toner cartridges. For low
volume users, it makes no sense. For larger volume users, the market
provides color photocopiers at considerably higher costs.
Perhaps you're missing the point that cheap color laser printers are
*already* here? As Coup said, on a good sale you can buy one from Dell
for $275. The real question is simply how long it takes to bolt a
scanner on the top of it. They already do it with mono laser
multifunctions.
Bill
V
VH
I've just installed 3 of the Dell 5100cn which is the bigger brotherThe Fuji-Xerox printers have received some interest as perhaps a good
association between the two companies and their technologies.
I'm going to have to ask around for some print samples, as good as your
description is, it is hard to qualify an image production device without
seeing output.
I'll have to research it... however, why the heck is it so large? 17" x
17" x 30" high? wow.
Art
of the 3100. The printer is big and bulky but my back is telling me
that it is lighter than an HP4600. Compare to the HP 4500 or even the
HP 4600 the Dell is much more quiet, in fact these were installed as
personal printers which mean they are within 5 feet of the users and
it is even less noisy than an HP4200 it replaced.
If you have ever waited for an 4500 to warm up you'll be delighted
with how fast the Dell came out of power save mode. The first page
came out under 30 seconds. I only printed a couple of test pages and
some web pages so don't have an informed opinion of the output quality
but my quick impression is that the color saturation and glossiness is
more like the 4500, which I prefer, than the 4600.
C
Coup
I've just installed 3 of the Dell 5100cn which is the bigger brother
of the 3100. The printer is big and bulky but my back is telling me
that it is lighter than an HP4600. Compare to the HP 4500 or even the
HP 4600 the Dell is much more quiet, in fact these were installed as
personal printers which mean they are within 5 feet of the users and
it is even less noisy than an HP4200 it replaced.
If you have ever waited for an 4500 to warm up you'll be delighted
with how fast the Dell came out of power save mode. The first page
came out under 30 seconds. I only printed a couple of test pages and
some web pages so don't have an informed opinion of the output quality
but my quick impression is that the color saturation and glossiness is
more like the 4500, which I prefer, than the 4600.
Absolutely. The 3000/3100 come out of sleep mode amazingly fast. I was
reminded of this yesterday watching a Minolta 2300 take around 85
seconds to do this, my 3100 takes about 15 secs.. Btw the new Dells
are utterly silent in sleep mode... I immediately set mine to enter
sleep mode in 2 mins... there's virtually no penalty for running it
this way...
A
Arthur Entlich
Hi Bill,
No, I don't believe I missed the point you are making, but you may have
misunderstood mine. I have been in the market for a color laser, so I
fully aware of the prices. I have looked at several in the $350-500 CAN
price range. They still are relatively bulky, heavy and costly to make.
Adding a scanner on top will make them bigger and bulkier, and I don't
know that people will want them who use these type of products in home
environments. The inkjets can be sold this way because they cost
considerably less to make and ship and they sell them by the shipload
due to the price, which keeps the costs down. The color lasers selling
for so little suddenly is due to the "new" business model they are
using... you pay via the toner. (sound familiar)
In order to make money on these laser printers, the manufacturers have
to sell replacement toner cartridges. Otherwise, they probably barely
break even, considering shipping costs and real costs of the product.
While inkjet printers used in all in one machines are made up of mainly
plastic, costing little in quantity production, the complexity and
amount of more valuable raw materials makes the color laser printer much
more costly to produce, to set up and to repair.
As I see it, if they introduce color laser all in ones cheaply
(basically replacing color photocopiers) they will KILL the inkjet all
in one market and they will dampen the color photocopier market
considerably.
It will soon become clear to people who buy all in one copiers that the
color laser is faster, and makes a more durable print. The cost per
print is also going to be cheaper, especially with the starter
cartridges given with the printer (unless they short them even further).
People who would have bought the inkjet versions, will migrate to the
color laser versions, and use them until the toner runs out. At that
time, they will have received the equivalent of 3-4 ink refills in
quantity of prints, comfortably paying for the additional cost of the
printer, and the company will have no financial return on them. Those
buyers are not likely to get replacement cartridges, because 1) they
will probably not need a refill based upon volume for several years, and
2) Because the cost of the toner cartridges is relatively much higher on
refill.
The other market will be people who have offices, schools, and such, and
need a easy to operate color laser photocopier, and would have purchased
a more costly one, since currently that's what's out there. Those sales
will slack off as well. These larger volume users may buy replacement
toners, or find generic refills.
If you have ever looked inside a color laser printer, you will have
noticed how much more durable they are designed and how much more guts
are involved versus a inkjet. The paper handling alone is much more
complex. I would gather the profit margin in those machines is small,
at $350 CAN, or $295 US with toner. Their only hope is to sell you more
toner down the road. Already, I have noticed that many of the big box
stores carrying the color laser printers don't carry the toner at all or
only keep it on hand for a few months until the printer is off the
market. This leaves people either buying direct for the manufacturer,
which I'm sure they like, since the profit is higher and no discounts,
or they buy generic toner and have it refilled.
As the initial value and cost of the item goes up, this pay as you go
concept becomes a longer and longer payback, and companies don't like
that. It would be like getting a car for cost or less with the hopes
the gas purchases would manufacture the profits. Probably could be
done, but the time to do it would be too long in the future.
As I said, I'm just one guy, with one set of beliefs about these
logistic, but I could be wrong... maybe an "all in one color laser" is
about to be released for $400, who knows. In the end with these
products it is all about the consumables.
Art
No, I don't believe I missed the point you are making, but you may have
misunderstood mine. I have been in the market for a color laser, so I
fully aware of the prices. I have looked at several in the $350-500 CAN
price range. They still are relatively bulky, heavy and costly to make.
Adding a scanner on top will make them bigger and bulkier, and I don't
know that people will want them who use these type of products in home
environments. The inkjets can be sold this way because they cost
considerably less to make and ship and they sell them by the shipload
due to the price, which keeps the costs down. The color lasers selling
for so little suddenly is due to the "new" business model they are
using... you pay via the toner. (sound familiar)
In order to make money on these laser printers, the manufacturers have
to sell replacement toner cartridges. Otherwise, they probably barely
break even, considering shipping costs and real costs of the product.
While inkjet printers used in all in one machines are made up of mainly
plastic, costing little in quantity production, the complexity and
amount of more valuable raw materials makes the color laser printer much
more costly to produce, to set up and to repair.
As I see it, if they introduce color laser all in ones cheaply
(basically replacing color photocopiers) they will KILL the inkjet all
in one market and they will dampen the color photocopier market
considerably.
It will soon become clear to people who buy all in one copiers that the
color laser is faster, and makes a more durable print. The cost per
print is also going to be cheaper, especially with the starter
cartridges given with the printer (unless they short them even further).
People who would have bought the inkjet versions, will migrate to the
color laser versions, and use them until the toner runs out. At that
time, they will have received the equivalent of 3-4 ink refills in
quantity of prints, comfortably paying for the additional cost of the
printer, and the company will have no financial return on them. Those
buyers are not likely to get replacement cartridges, because 1) they
will probably not need a refill based upon volume for several years, and
2) Because the cost of the toner cartridges is relatively much higher on
refill.
The other market will be people who have offices, schools, and such, and
need a easy to operate color laser photocopier, and would have purchased
a more costly one, since currently that's what's out there. Those sales
will slack off as well. These larger volume users may buy replacement
toners, or find generic refills.
If you have ever looked inside a color laser printer, you will have
noticed how much more durable they are designed and how much more guts
are involved versus a inkjet. The paper handling alone is much more
complex. I would gather the profit margin in those machines is small,
at $350 CAN, or $295 US with toner. Their only hope is to sell you more
toner down the road. Already, I have noticed that many of the big box
stores carrying the color laser printers don't carry the toner at all or
only keep it on hand for a few months until the printer is off the
market. This leaves people either buying direct for the manufacturer,
which I'm sure they like, since the profit is higher and no discounts,
or they buy generic toner and have it refilled.
As the initial value and cost of the item goes up, this pay as you go
concept becomes a longer and longer payback, and companies don't like
that. It would be like getting a car for cost or less with the hopes
the gas purchases would manufacture the profits. Probably could be
done, but the time to do it would be too long in the future.
As I said, I'm just one guy, with one set of beliefs about these
logistic, but I could be wrong... maybe an "all in one color laser" is
about to be released for $400, who knows. In the end with these
products it is all about the consumables.
Art
H
HammerToe
Would just like to respectfully disagree that "it's cheaper to buy aHP has a Color LaserJet for $499 US. I think its the 1500 or the 2500.
Its a disposable printer. To purchase the 4 toner cartridges it takes
will cost you more than $499. You can just buy a new one and junk the
old one.
Is this progress?
new one..." (at least in 'many cases)".
What MANY (MOST???) of the manufacturers seem to do is supply 'starter
toner cartridges' that may have only enough toner in them to print (at
std coverages) only perhaps 20%-30% of what you can/should get with
'normal' cartridges'. (Eg. maybe 1000-1500 pages instead of 5000).
One needs to do one's 'homework' and check this carefully before
buying ANY color laser to see what actually 'comes with it'.
A
Art
We are very happy with our Magicolor 2300DL and the toners last forever. We
buy the high capacity toners.
buy the high capacity toners.