Canon IP5000 or IP8500?

[Arthur Entlich]

Measkite, you need to READ what's written before replying:


How much clear can that description be?

Yes, think can change overnight with a ink vendor. Guess what? The
same thing can happen (and in fact has happened) with an OEM supplier.

I have seen several OEM companies change the "location" of their ink
facility. You think they are using the same inks? They aren't. They
hire new companies to make their inks.

Art

 

[measekite]

But that's not the issue.

Although I do refill some cartridges, I also recognize there are more
perils involved. There is a risk of contamination during the refill
process from environmental contaminants or from changes within the ink
cartridge (dried inks, incompatibility between inks, foam breakdown,
build up of ink foaming, air bubbles trapped, etc) and the ink, which
may have been exposed to excessive oxygen and oxidized,
over-evaporated fluids or solvents, etc.. The ink cartridge which are
virgin are manufactured typically in a very hygienic and
professionally managed situation, and the cartridge is fresh when
filled. There are many less variables involved in a factory filled
cartridge.

And for a few dollars more you avoid the pain in the ass (for some)
There are people who like a pain in the ass. If my print load ever gets
to a point that I no longer want to pay for OEM ink my first step would
be to researched prefilled carts.

Also with all of the talk about BRANDS of ink I have not read much here
on BRANDS of cartridges. Who makes them and what ones are good and what
ones are poor.

 

[measekite]

Measkite, you need to READ what's written before replying:



How much clear can that description be?

Yes, think can change overnight with a ink vendor. Guess what? The
same thing can happen (and in fact has happened) with an OEM supplier.

I have seen several OEM companies change the "location" of their ink
facility. You think they are using the same inks? They aren't. They
hire new companies to make their inks.

Art

I understand this but in the case of Canon, Epson, and HP it is not so
much as who makes the ink as it is what they are making. In all of
these caes these companies own and control the ink formulations and the
inks are make to their specifications and the they also administer a
quality control program.

 

[Burt]

No Shipping. You do not buy 1 ounce of ink at a time either.

Incredibly, as usual you are right again! Let me explain some simple math.
I am a low volume user of bulk inks so I buy them in 2 oz. containers. At
$5 per 2 oz. container for my six color printer I spend $30 for 2 oz. each.
That plus shipping is roughly equivalent to your purchase of three costco
OEM carts plus tax. An OEM cart has about 13 ml. of ink, but not all of it
is useable as you are warned to replace the cart before it totally runs out
of ink to protect your print head. A 2 oz. bottle of ink will give the
equivalent of five or more OEM cartridges. You are good at math - for my
$36 (the retail cost of three carts) I get the equivalent of more than 30
new carts, or an equivalent value of about $360 retail. For your $29
(estimating tax) you get ---uh---three carts for the equivalent value of
$36 retail.

You may now correctly reply that there is some labor involved and that is
worth something. Lets follow the labor expended. I buy the product on
line. Time expended is five minutes. Refilling each cart is less than five
minutes, including cleanup. Two and one-half hours max total. No extra
cash expended and actual cash flow of $36.

If you buy one set of carts at a time at costco (low volume user as you've
mentioned several times) you will have made 10 trips to buy a set of three
carts at a time. The Costco I go to is a 20 to 30 minute drive, depending
on traffic so this represents at least an hour per trip plus shopping time.
Of course, while I am there I can also buy the little five pound jar of
jelly-bellies, the small gallon size of olive oil, etc. If your Costco is
as busy as ours with customers buying enough food and paper goods to stock a
month cruise on the Queen Mary, you will endure a reasonably long wait at
the register to save your $9 per three cart package, while I can sit
comfortably at my desk and do the three refills in about ten minutes total
for a savings of $33 as compared to buying retail carts. Oh, I forgot that
at almost $3 per gallon you will have burned a few dollars worth of gas on
each trip to offset your savings. Since you have an MBA you are
sufficiently savvy to weigh the investment and inventory issues of buying
all carts at once to save shipping and handling (your trip to Costco in your
no-maintenance-required, never-needs-to-be-repaired Acura) vs. making more
trips, keeping less inventory on hand, and keeping your cash flow lower.
One trip to buy all of them - up front cash outlay of $270 plus tax and the
cost of one trip in time and gas. Ten trips to buy one set of three on each
trip - $270 cash outlay over several months plus the cost of ten trips in
time and gas. Now please don't forget that when you replace a cart you have
to open the package, pop the little orange seal, remove the tape, remove the
old cart, and replace it with the new one. Even you don't move at the speed
of light, much less sound. That's at least two minutes if you keep the carts
right next to the printer. I remove the cart, refill it, and replace it in
about five minutes.

Kidding aside, you will spend the time and gas money going to the store for
one to ten trips to buy (at retail or otherwise) the product while I can sit
at my desk during a printing session and spend no more time, total, to
refill my carts. I just purchased my second set of MIS 2 oz. bottles of
ink. In the almost one year of use on my I960 printer I have saved about
$325 in ink cost with prints you can not distinguish from OEM prints and
with no printer problems. Costco doesn't carry all the colors of the six
color printer, but if they did, buying my carts at Costco would have saved
me about $90 instead for the same amount of printing. I saved myself the
cost of two of my printers so far, instead of less than the cost of one of
yours. Of course, both of us have to go there to stock up on Kirkland
paper, the one you and I love to use, so that may skew the time element a
bit in your direction, but you can't refute the basic premise, even if you
can weasel a bit on a few pennies one way or another.

INCORRECT AGAIN. Costco sells a 3 pack of color. One each of the primary
colors. These usually run out within weeks of each other. You are
actually purchasing one cart per color in the packaged. With the dye
black there are 3.

Your epithet, "incorrect again", implies that most of my posts are
incorrect? I suppose, in contradistinction to your "always correct" posts.
I'll leave that conclusion up to the others who participate on this NG.

All of the colors do not go at one time.

Never said they did. I said "purchase all the colors," not change all the
colors, at any given time. About your misinterpreting my post I should
really refrain from saying to you, "incorrect again."

In the 8 months I have had my

 

[Burt]

There are many brands of cartridges out there of which Arrow, Rainbow, and
Accujet are a few. These are made by factories, probably mostly in China
where I suspect that the OEM carts are made as well. Some are also filled
with inks that have been identified by vendors by brand. I would not
comment on which carts are suitable as I have only refilled using OEM and
MIS empty carts. Both work well with bulk inks from MIS.

By saying that "There are people who like a pain in the ass" with respect
to refilling, you again use a pejoritive term as a semantic device to
convince people of your subjective opinion. A more accurate statement might
be that you wouldn't enjoy the hands-on involvement of refilling carts, and
you would prefer the simpler approach of buying and installing either the
OEM cart or possibly an aftermarket cart if you were convinced that it would
give equal performance and not harm your printer. That with full knowledge
that you are trading off convenience for some savings in cost. I believe
that would accurately state your opinion without second guessing and, at the
same time, criticizing others who don't mind refilling. It seems to me that
your abraisive and confrontative approach lessens your credability. More
civility is often more convincing.

 

[Ron Cohen]

Burt, the figures you quote are on the conservative side and potential
savings could really be higher, so there is no way you could be accused of
exaggerating the savings. The following is a copy of a posting I did in July
2003 regarding ink costs. A google search on my name, refilling and 1.2¢
will bring up numerous references to it, including Nifty-Stuff.com. The
difference between then and now is the addition of the iP4000 and that I now
purchase 8oz bottles vs. 16oz. The per ounce cost difference is minimal.
Otherwise what was originally posted remains in effect.
==============================
Actually your cost estimate may be a little on the high side, but by all
means it is vastly better than OEM ink prices or even the cost of third
party tanks. I have an s820 which has 6 tanks vs. the 4 in an i850. Both the
s820 and the i950 use the same BCI-6 tanks. BCI-3 as in the i850 and BCI-6
tanks are identical in size and capacity. The only difference is ink
formulations which are different for the two types of printers. Both the
supplier you reference and the one I use appear to use bulk ink from
Formulabs which is one of, if not, the best maker of inks. Because I
purchased my ink in 1 pint bottles (480 cc's) that works out to 2880 cc's
for a set of six bottles. I can usually print about 40 full coverage 8.5 x
11 sheets before needing to refill when the first low ink warning pops up.
At that time I install my entire #2 set of cartridges and then refill the
entire set #1. Two of the cartridges will usually take 5cc's to top off the
ink reservoir, 3 will take 3 cc's and one takes 2 cc's. This is a total
consumption of 21 cc's. I paid less than $70 U.S. incl shipping for the six
pints which works out to about 50¢ per refilling session after printing 40
sheets. My net cost is approx. 1.2¢ per sheet. Ink purchased in smaller
quantities will cost more per ounce, but by any estimate it is a great cost
savings. I do a very large amount of printing and have easily saved the cost
of several printers since the first of the year. The i950 should be
equivalent in consumption to the s820, so the original poster can easily get
an idea that even buying some of the most expensive bulk refill inks, his
costs per page will be extremely low. I know he was asking for comparisons
on Canon and Epson models, but because of my total satisfaction with Canon,
I won't even consider any other inkjet.
==============================

 

[Ron Cohen]

This is just a 'me too' to your comments. I refill OEM, Rainbow, USA and
Arrow cartridges - all successfully. The procedure involves nothing more
than putting a cap or seal on the ink outlet, making an opening in the
reservoir for a syringe, injecting ink and sealing the opening. There are a
variety of methods to making the opening and resealing. It's more a matter
of personal choice than if one method is superior or not. If it works, then
it's correct. I have no idea how long a cartridge will last if not allowed
to dry out between fill ups since I'm still refilling the OEM cartridges
that came with my first s820 and that is about three years ago. When our
friend talks about people who like a PITA with respect to refilling, I get
amused. It's so quick and easy (and not messy) to accomplish. To me the real
PITA would be forking over $9.00 or more plus sales tax for a new OEM
cartridge every time one ran out.

There are many brands of cartridges out there of which Arrow, Rainbow, and
Accujet are a few. These are made by factories, probably mostly in China
where I suspect that the OEM carts are made as well. Some are also filled
with inks that have been identified by vendors by brand. I would not
comment on which carts are suitable as I have only refilled using OEM and
MIS empty carts. Both work well with bulk inks from MIS.

By saying that "There are people who like a pain in the ass" with respect
to refilling, you again use a pejoritive term as a semantic device to
convince people of your subjective opinion. A more accurate statement
might be that you wouldn't enjoy the hands-on involvement of refilling
carts, and you would prefer the simpler approach of buying and installing
either the OEM cart or possibly an aftermarket cart if you were convinced
that it would give equal performance and not harm your printer. That with
full knowledge that you are trading off convenience for some savings in
cost. I believe that would accurately state your opinion without second
guessing and, at the same time, criticizing others who don't mind
refilling. It seems to me that your abraisive and confrontative approach
lessens your credability. More civility is often more convincing.

snipped

 

[Burt]

Doesn't take an MBA to figure this one out!

Burt, the figures you quote are on the conservative side and potential
savings could really be higher, so there is no way you could be accused of
exaggerating the savings. The following is a copy of a posting I did in
July 2003 regarding ink costs. A google search on my name, refilling and
1.2¢ will bring up numerous references to it, including Nifty-Stuff.com.
The difference between then and now is the addition of the iP4000 and that
I now purchase 8oz bottles vs. 16oz. The per ounce cost difference is
minimal. Otherwise what was originally posted remains in effect.
==============================
Actually your cost estimate may be a little on the high side, but by all
means it is vastly better than OEM ink prices or even the cost of third
party tanks. I have an s820 which has 6 tanks vs. the 4 in an i850. Both
the
s820 and the i950 use the same BCI-6 tanks. BCI-3 as in the i850 and BCI-6
tanks are identical in size and capacity. The only difference is ink
formulations which are different for the two types of printers. Both the
supplier you reference and the one I use appear to use bulk ink from
Formulabs which is one of, if not, the best maker of inks. Because I
purchased my ink in 1 pint bottles (480 cc's) that works out to 2880 cc's
for a set of six bottles. I can usually print about 40 full coverage 8.5 x
11 sheets before needing to refill when the first low ink warning pops up.
At that time I install my entire #2 set of cartridges and then refill the
entire set #1. Two of the cartridges will usually take 5cc's to top off
the
ink reservoir, 3 will take 3 cc's and one takes 2 cc's. This is a total
consumption of 21 cc's. I paid less than $70 U.S. incl shipping for the
six
pints which works out to about 50¢ per refilling session after printing 40
sheets. My net cost is approx. 1.2¢ per sheet. Ink purchased in smaller
quantities will cost more per ounce, but by any estimate it is a great
cost
savings. I do a very large amount of printing and have easily saved the
cost
of several printers since the first of the year. The i950 should be
equivalent in consumption to the s820, so the original poster can easily
get
an idea that even buying some of the most expensive bulk refill inks, his
costs per page will be extremely low. I know he was asking for comparisons
on Canon and Epson models, but because of my total satisfaction with
Canon,
I won't even consider any other inkjet.
==============================

 

[measekite]

Incredibly, as usual you are right again! Let me explain some simple math.
I am a low volume user of bulk inks so I buy them in 2 oz. containers. At
$5 per 2 oz. container for my six color printer I spend $30 for 2 oz. each.
That plus shipping is roughly equivalent to your purchase of three costco
OEM carts plus tax. An OEM cart has about 13 ml. of ink, but not all of it
is useable as you are warned to replace the cart before it totally runs out
of ink to protect your print head. A 2 oz. bottle of ink will give the
equivalent of five or more OEM cartridges. You are good at math - for my
$36 (the retail cost of three carts) I get the equivalent of more than 30
new carts, or an equivalent value of about $360 retail. For your $29
(estimating tax) you get ---uh---three carts for the equivalent value of
$36 retail.

You may now correctly reply that there is some labor involved and that is
worth something. Lets follow the labor expended. I buy the product on
line. Time expended is five minutes. Refilling each cart is less than five
minutes, including cleanup. Two and one-half hours max total. No extra
cash expended and actual cash flow of $36.

If you buy one set of carts at a time at costco (low volume user as you've
mentioned several times) you will have made 10 trips to buy a set of three
carts at a time. The Costco I go to is a 20 to 30 minute drive, depending
on traffic so this represents at least an hour per trip plus shopping time.
Of course, while I am there I can also buy the little five pound jar of
jelly-bellies, the small gallon size of olive oil, etc. If your Costco is
as busy as ours with customers buying enough food and paper goods to stock a
month cruise on the Queen Mary, you will endure a reasonably long wait at
the register to save your $9 per three cart package, while I can sit
comfortably at my desk and do the three refills in about ten minutes total
for a savings of $33 as compared to buying retail carts. Oh, I forgot that
at almost $3 per gallon you will have burned a few dollars worth of gas on
each trip to offset your savings. Since you have an MBA you are
sufficiently savvy to weigh the investment and inventory issues of buying
all carts at once to save shipping and handling (your trip to Costco in your
no-maintenance-required, never-needs-to-be-repaired Acura) vs. making more
trips, keeping less inventory on hand, and keeping your cash flow lower.
One trip to buy all of them - up front cash outlay of $270 plus tax and the
cost of one trip in time and gas. Ten trips to buy one set of three on each
trip - $270 cash outlay over several months plus the cost of ten trips in
time and gas. Now please don't forget that when you replace a cart you have
to open the package, pop the little orange seal, remove the tape, remove the
old cart, and replace it with the new one. Even you don't move at the speed
of light, much less sound. That's at least two minutes if you keep the carts
right next to the printer. I remove the cart, refill it, and replace it in
about five minutes.

Kidding aside, you will spend the time and gas money going to the store for
one to ten trips to buy (at retail or otherwise) the product while I can sit
at my desk during a printing session and spend no more time, total, to
refill my carts. I just purchased my second set of MIS 2 oz. bottles of
ink. In the almost one year of use on my I960 printer I have saved about
$325 in ink cost with prints you can not distinguish from OEM prints and
with no printer problems. Costco doesn't carry all the colors of the six
color printer, but if they did, buying my carts at Costco would have saved
me about $90 instead for the same amount of printing. I saved myself the
cost of two of my printers so far, instead of less than the cost of one of
yours. Of course, both of us have to go there to stock up on Kirkland
paper, the one you and I love to use, so that may skew the time element a
bit in your direction, but you can't refute the basic premise, even if you
can weasel a bit on a few pennies one way or another.




Your epithet, "incorrect again", implies that most of my posts are
incorrect? I suppose, in contradistinction to your "always correct" posts.
I'll leave that conclusion up to the others who participate on this NG.



Never said they did. I said "purchase all the colors," not change all the
colors, at any given time. About your misinterpreting my post I should
really refrain from saying to you, "incorrect again."

In the 8 months I have had my

I am in Costco on a regular basis for a lot of things, probably every 2
weeks. No extra expense for me to pick up any ink I need. I never said
that webstore labeled ink costs more. Of course it costs less. Even
prefilled carts cost less. If I had a high enough print load I would
research who the real mfg of prefilled ink carts are and find a way to
deal with them. But at my present rate of consumption I am choosing not
to risk any problems with my printer.

 

[Burt]

(snip)

I am in Costco on a regular basis for a lot of things, probably every 2
weeks. No extra expense for me to pick up any ink I need. I never said
that webstore labeled ink costs more. Of course it costs less. Even
prefilled carts cost less. If I had a high enough print load I would
research who the real mfg of prefilled ink carts are and find a way to
deal with them. But at my present rate of consumption I am choosing not
to risk any problems with my printer.

The good news is that Alotofthings now has a well set up web site and you
can buy genuine formulabs inks and prefilled arrow carts with formulabs inks
from them directly. As you have pointed out, you dislike a two-tiered
pricing system with their ebay prices lower and you do not wish to use ebay
for purchases. During my school years I worked for a family member in a
plumbing and electrical supply firm. It is typical for such firms to have
multi-tiered pricing depending on a variety of criteria - volume of
purchases, contractor or private party, etc. In addition, profit margins
were calculated much lower when items were drop-shipped and no handling by
our firm occurred. The ebay model of selling is probably less costly than
the direct web-based sale and qualifies for a lower markup. There are
brick-and-mortar firms that also have catalog sales that have lower
prices/markups. This is not unusual in some retail and in mixed
retail/wholesale firms. The prefilled arrow carts have been used
successfully and refilled by Ron Cohen who posts on this NG. There was one
report on another forum of the need to open the fill hole (sealed with a
removable plastic plug to facilitate refilling) and then replace it after
letting air into the cart before use, but Ron has not reported any such
problem. Ron has not had any problems at all using formulabs inks and I
have the same experience refilling with MIS inks. When your volume
increases I would be glad to give you any information that would help you in
deciding which carts or bulk inks to use. Again, I know from your previous
posts that you are not a "hands-on" person when dealing with refilling,
checking the oil or water levels in your car, etc. Some people are, and
some people aren't. If you were I wouldn't be reluctant to advise using
formulabs bulk inks in OEM carts as the way to satisfy your brand concerns
and assure success. I have been happy with the MIS inks, but you are
reluctant as you don't know the mfgr of their inks. I think we can
understand and respect each others' approach to this issue without
disdainful comments or rancorous dialogue.

 

[measekite]

This is just a 'me too' to your comments. I refill OEM, Rainbow, USA and
Arrow cartridges - all successfully.

Are these actually manufacturer BRANDS that are sold in a variety of
places or are they webstore LABELS?

So what is the difference between those 3 empty carts?

The procedure involves nothing more
than putting a cap or seal on the ink outlet, making an opening in the
reservoir for a syringe,

Isn't there already an opening?

injecting ink and sealing the opening. There are a
variety of methods to making the opening and resealing.

Isn't there a plug or screw?

It's more a matter
of personal choice than if one method is superior or not. If it works, then
it's correct. I have no idea how long a cartridge will last if not allowed
to dry out between fill ups since I'm still refilling the OEM cartridges
that came with my first s820 and that is about three years ago. When our
friend talks about people who like a PITA with respect to refilling, I get
amused. It's so quick and easy (and not messy) to accomplish. To me the real
PITA would be forking over $9.00 or more plus sales tax for a new OEM
cartridge every time one ran out.

The printer is built for OEM carts and that ink is designed for the printer.

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Firstly, it can be much more than "a few dollars more", it can be orders
of magnitude differences, secondly, some people fine refilinmg easy, if
they have worked out the methods. Lastly, for hardcore users, they feel
having inexpensive inks for frees them financially and creatively from
not having to worry about the amount of ink costs a print might have used.

Art

 

[Burt]

OEM is Canon brand, but I would guess that Canon outsources manufacture of
these items as well as manufacture of their OEM inks. I have seen Rainbow
and Arrow carts sold by more than one vendor so I would guess that they are
brands. The ink that Ron uses is Sensient Formulabs, a branded ink sold by
Alotofthings on their web site and also on ebay at a lower cost. I haven't
used USA carts and can't comment on them. On OEM carts there is a plastic
ball pressed into the fill hole that effects a seal. You can push the ball
into the reservoir with a tool sold by bulk ink vendors, push it in with a
center punch or nail with a tap of a hammer, or like Ron, you can leave the
seal intact and make additional holes for filling and use a variety of
sealing techniques, all of which are quite simple. A few vendors sell
sealing plugs for the OEM carts, and several carts including prefilled Arrow
and MIS empty carts have a soft plastic plug in the fill hole that can be
removed and replaced for refilling. The aftermarket carts may have very
minor variations from the OEM carts but function in the same manner. They
have been designed and manufactured by third parties to work in these
printers.

 

[measekite]

Firstly, it can be much more than "a few dollars more", it can be
orders of magnitude differences, secondly, some people fine refilinmg
easy, if they have worked out the methods.

Lastly does make sense to me but you can have about the same freedom if
you can find BRANDED aftermarket prefilled carts.

 

[Ron Cohen]

Thanks, you said it far better than I could. I purchased the Rainbow and USA
cartridges from TylerMartin.com and the Arrow from alotofthings. All of them
work just fine for me.
Ron

 

[measekite]

OEM is Canon brand, but I would guess that Canon outsources manufacture of
these items as well as manufacture of their OEM inks.

Canon formulates all of the ink that is sold under their name. They
have also engineered and designed the carts to work with the printer
they designed. That is probably the reason Burt refills them. If there
was something else that was better he would buy them.

I have seen Rainbow
and Arrow carts sold by more than one vendor so I would guess that they are
brands.

Might be.

 

[measekite]

Thanks, you said it far better than I could. I purchased the Rainbow and USA
cartridges from TylerMartin.com and the Arrow from alotofthings. All of them
work just fine for me.
Ron

And how is Tyler Martin? What is their URL?

 

[Ron Cohen]

www.tylermartin.com They also sell on eBay.

And how is Tyler Martin? What is their URL?

snipped

 

[measekite]

I look at their site. I cannot find where they are supposed to sell
Sensinent BRAND ink in their carts. It also seems kind of weird to sell
BBQ Sauce and Diet pills along with their ink. I hope their customers
do not brush ink on their steak and then get fat requiring a diet pill?

 

[Burt]

Canon formulates all of the ink that is sold under their name. They have
also engineered and designed the carts to work with the printer they
designed. That is probably the reason Burt refills them. If there was
something else that was better he would buy them.

There actually are some carts that might be better. Canon carts have two
sponges in the sponge compartment. The top one does not take up ink very
well in refilling. It is a different density of foam. There are some
aftermarket carts with a single foam sponge instead, and they tend to refill
better than OEM carts. This is covered very well in the Nifty-Stuff inkjet
forum where people have taken the carts apart and analyzed them. I do have
MIS carts that I buy empty and refill. They are excellent and work
interchangeably with the OEM carts. Ron Cohen uses Arrow carts, purchased
from Alotofthings and refills them. They work perfectly as well. The
people who mfgr aftermarket carts have undoubtedly reverse-engineered them
and designed them to work properly with Canon printers. The ones that have
survived in the marketplace for five or more years wouldn't have stayed in
business had their products not performed properly.

I would bet that Canon prepares the specs and outsources carts and inks,
just as the air, oil, and fuel filters you have installed at the Acura
dealer's repair dept have an Acura logo but are absolutely outsourced (to
say nothing of many of the components in every car on the road).
(snip)