J
Jane
What if I choose plug and play instead of agp in the MB bios . Will that do
it?
it?
Barry Watzman said:
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J
Jane
How come my dvi connection is established later then? All my info shows it
is a digital connection and it works flawlessly after the welcome screen.
Are you suggesting that this is really not a dvi connection?
is a digital connection and it works flawlessly after the welcome screen.
Are you suggesting that this is really not a dvi connection?
C
Custom Computers
Jane said:How come my dvi connection is established later then? All my info shows it
is a digital connection and it works flawlessly after the welcome screen.
Are you suggesting that this is really not a dvi connection?
Thats funny my DVI connection is established when Windows XP loads the
Welcome screen just like Jane's. Its not her video card thats for sure.
Since my two X1900's running in Crossfire to my $700 brand new monitor
does the same thing. Plus I've seen this very same results with the DVI
connection on other systems for over the last 6 years. It's the reason
I kept a VGA monitor on had in my shop all these years.
Also I connect one VGA monitor to the second DVI output on my crossfire
card using the DVI to VGA adaptor and when I boot my system the BIOS
shows on the VGA monitor up to and including the black Windows XP
screen with the moving bar on the bottom. Then the VGA monitor goes
into standby and the DVI kicks in and takes over at the welcome screen
where you select the user.
Also the motherboard BIOS is a simplified version of DOS, thats why you
have had to use DOS to flash a BIOS chip for all these years till they
finally figured out how to emulate DOS within Windows.
M
Michael W. Ryder
Custom said:Thats funny my DVI connection is established when Windows XP loads the
Welcome screen just like Jane's. Its not her video card thats for sure.
Since my two X1900's running in Crossfire to my $700 brand new monitor
does the same thing. Plus I've seen this very same results with the DVI
connection on other systems for over the last 6 years. It's the reason
I kept a VGA monitor on had in my shop all these years.
And yet my several year old 9700 Pro with a new Samsung LCD has no
problem displaying the BIOS screens. I did notice on another ATI video
card that the DVI output didn't display anything until Windows had
started. I ended up using an adapter on that card so the LCD was on the
standard VGA output and then it worked fine. I think the problem may
be a combination of the video card output and the monitor's frequency
rates. I notice that my very old NEC 4D CRT has a problem displaying
the first screen of the BIOS with newer video cards.
B
Barry Watzman
The question does not make sense to me; there is no such selection in
most BIOS'. Plug and Play is a software issue within windows. AGP is a
hardware slot on the motherboard. One is not an alternative to the other.
most BIOS'. Plug and Play is a software issue within windows. AGP is a
hardware slot on the motherboard. One is not an alternative to the other.
What if I choose plug and play instead of agp in the MB bios . Will that do
it?
Barry Watzman said:Re: "It's as if the drivers aren't loaded until the welcome screen."
That might be because they are in fact not loaded until the welcome
screen. There are no drivers during the boot process; support for that
time period depends on the firmware on the video card, and in your case,
it's safe to conclude that this firmware is incompatible with your
monitor. There is no solution other than to change the card or the
monitor. [In theory, a firmware update might fix the problem, but it's
unlikely either that such an upgrade exists or that you can get it.]
I have AIW 8500dv with 6.14 driver version and 9.2 Multimedia( ATI says
that is the latest for that card). It is connected to a 225bw Samsung FP.
with latest driver. When I connect with VGA I have no problems. When I
connect with DVI, I also have no problems at all, except just with the
boot process.The screen remains blank during boot up and comes on at the
windows xp home welcome screen. From there on no problems. It's as if the
drivers aren't loaded until the welcome screen. How do I get the boot up
process back with DVI? Thanks.
B
Barry Watzman
What I'm saying is that if you boot up a computer with no connection to
a DVI monitor (say that at bootup it has an analog monitor), and then
you plug in a DVI monitor, it usually won't work until you reboot the
comptuer (and, in some cases, rebooting is not enough you have to power
down). The video card bios looks for a DVI monitor at power-up and if
one is found there is an initialization dialog that occurs between the
video card (DVI port) and the monitor without which the DVI port won't
be initialized and won't work. And the video bios only attempts to
conduct that dialog once, at power-up, so if you plug in a DVI monitor
later, it usually won't work.
On your video card, there is only one output connector, a DVI-I
connector that has both the DVI output and the analog VGA output, and
for analog VGA you use the adapter that came with the card. The
comments that I made above only refer to actual use of the DVI port for
a DVI connection. They do not apply to using an analog VGA display,
even though such a display is ultimately plugged into the DVI connector
(through the adapter).
Note, also, I'm talking about when you physically connect the monitor to
the display (e.g. when you plug the cable into the DVI socket), not
about when it starts to work. I don't think that you understand what
I'm saying.
I had the same card that you have (ATI AIW 8500 & 8500DV), and I've had
monitors with the same problem. There is no true solution for this
other than, possibly, a different monitor or a firmware upgrade, and I
was never able to find a firmware upgrade. It's a low-level
incompatibility between the firmware of the video card and the monitor.
a DVI monitor (say that at bootup it has an analog monitor), and then
you plug in a DVI monitor, it usually won't work until you reboot the
comptuer (and, in some cases, rebooting is not enough you have to power
down). The video card bios looks for a DVI monitor at power-up and if
one is found there is an initialization dialog that occurs between the
video card (DVI port) and the monitor without which the DVI port won't
be initialized and won't work. And the video bios only attempts to
conduct that dialog once, at power-up, so if you plug in a DVI monitor
later, it usually won't work.
On your video card, there is only one output connector, a DVI-I
connector that has both the DVI output and the analog VGA output, and
for analog VGA you use the adapter that came with the card. The
comments that I made above only refer to actual use of the DVI port for
a DVI connection. They do not apply to using an analog VGA display,
even though such a display is ultimately plugged into the DVI connector
(through the adapter).
Note, also, I'm talking about when you physically connect the monitor to
the display (e.g. when you plug the cable into the DVI socket), not
about when it starts to work. I don't think that you understand what
I'm saying.
I had the same card that you have (ATI AIW 8500 & 8500DV), and I've had
monitors with the same problem. There is no true solution for this
other than, possibly, a different monitor or a firmware upgrade, and I
was never able to find a firmware upgrade. It's a low-level
incompatibility between the firmware of the video card and the monitor.
B
Barry Watzman
You don't understand what I'm saying. I'm not talking about when the
display starts working, I'm talking about when the DVI interface is
initialized.
Try this: Physically unplug your DVI monitor from your computer. Boot
your computer (with no monitor connected), wait until it's fully booted.
Plug in an analog monitor ... it will work. Unplug the analog monitor
and plug in a DVI monitor ... it won't work. DVI ports are initialized
only at boot-up, if a monitor is not found then, the port won't be
initialized until you reboot the system. This has to do with the
physical connection, not when the display starts working. The display
can be detected and initialized and still not work until Windows (with
it's drivers) comes up.
display starts working, I'm talking about when the DVI interface is
initialized.
Try this: Physically unplug your DVI monitor from your computer. Boot
your computer (with no monitor connected), wait until it's fully booted.
Plug in an analog monitor ... it will work. Unplug the analog monitor
and plug in a DVI monitor ... it won't work. DVI ports are initialized
only at boot-up, if a monitor is not found then, the port won't be
initialized until you reboot the system. This has to do with the
physical connection, not when the display starts working. The display
can be detected and initialized and still not work until Windows (with
it's drivers) comes up.
B
Barry Watzman
This problem (no pre-windows display on a DVI monitor) is very specific
to the combination of relatively early video cards and the specific
monitor being used. Some combinations will work, some won't, and the
only things you can do about it are:
-Live with it
-Different video card
-Different monitor
-Firmware upgrade when available
-Use an analog rather than digital (DVI) interface
to the combination of relatively early video cards and the specific
monitor being used. Some combinations will work, some won't, and the
only things you can do about it are:
-Live with it
-Different video card
-Different monitor
-Firmware upgrade when available
-Use an analog rather than digital (DVI) interface
S
Sam
I have AIW 8500dv with 6.14 driver version and 9.2 Multimedia( ATI says that
is the latest for that card). It is connected to a 225bw Samsung FP. with
latest driver. When I connect with VGA I have no problems. When I connect
with DVI, I also have no problems at all, except just with the boot
process.The screen remains blank during boot up and comes on at the windows
xp home welcome screen. From there on no problems. It's as if the drivers
aren't loaded until the welcome screen. How do I get the boot up process
back with DVI? Thanks.
I had this identical problem a few years back with a Samsung LCD screen
(VGA initialized faster on boot than DVI). The solution? I changed LCD
screens (got a Dell wide-screen). This solved the problem instantly...
same computer and video card, no other difference.
Do you have another LCD that you can substitute, just to see if it makes
a difference?
Sam
C
Custom Computers
Barry said:You don't understand what I'm saying. I'm not talking about when the
display starts working, I'm talking about when the DVI interface is
initialized.
Try this: Physically unplug your DVI monitor from your computer. Boot
your computer (with no monitor connected), wait until it's fully booted.
Plug in an analog monitor ... it will work. Unplug the analog monitor
and plug in a DVI monitor ... it won't work. DVI ports are initialized
only at boot-up, if a monitor is not found then, the port won't be
initialized until you reboot the system. This has to do with the
physical connection, not when the display starts working. The display
can be detected and initialized and still not work until Windows (with
it's drivers) comes up.
Thats not the case here, I did just as you said. With no monitor
connected I booted my computer then when its fully running as confirmed
by connecting a VGA monitor I disconnected the VGA monitor and then
plugged in the DVI monitor. Powered on the DVI monitor and it comes up
with blue screen for 5 to 10 seconds then shows the desktop. Also I
wouldn't say my X1900's are older video cards.
M
Michael W. Ryder
Barry said:This problem (no pre-windows display on a DVI monitor) is very specific
to the combination of relatively early video cards and the specific
monitor being used. Some combinations will work, some won't, and the
only things you can do about it are:
That isn't true as I've had this problem with a Radeon 9200 series video
card and LCD display. I had to use a DVI to VGA adapter to display the
BIOS display with this combination. The Radeon 9200 series is much
newer than the 9700 Pro that did not have this problem. I think the
problem is more how the video card was programmed, maybe the cheaper
cards aren't programmed to use the DVI until you get into Windows, much
like a lot of printers will only work with Windows.
B
Barry Watzman
Re: "I disconnected the VGA monitor and then plugged in the DVI monitor.
Powered on the DVI monitor and it comes up with blue screen for 5 to 10
seconds then shows the desktop"
That is an unusual/uncommon outcome.
Powered on the DVI monitor and it comes up with blue screen for 5 to 10
seconds then shows the desktop"
That is an unusual/uncommon outcome.
B
Barry Watzman
I stand by my entire statement (1st paragraph below). However, you are
certainly correct that the issue is in the video card's BIOS. As a
generalization, later bios' (later cards) are more compatible than
earlier cards, but it's not an absolute by any means. It's not an
intent to not work until the drivers load, but rather an unintended
outcome due to lack of knowledge and/or experience on the part of the
bios writer, and can also be caused by an LCD display that was itself
not "up to snuff" in terms of responding to the handshaking that goes on
between the dvi port and the monitor when the system comes on and is
initialized.
certainly correct that the issue is in the video card's BIOS. As a
generalization, later bios' (later cards) are more compatible than
earlier cards, but it's not an absolute by any means. It's not an
intent to not work until the drivers load, but rather an unintended
outcome due to lack of knowledge and/or experience on the part of the
bios writer, and can also be caused by an LCD display that was itself
not "up to snuff" in terms of responding to the handshaking that goes on
between the dvi port and the monitor when the system comes on and is
initialized.
F
Fred
Barry Watzman said:Re: "I disconnected the VGA monitor and then plugged in the DVI monitor.
Powered on the DVI monitor and it comes up with blue screen for 5 to 10
seconds then shows the desktop"
That is an unusual/uncommon outcome.
Not necessarily unusual as that is how my system works.
Also don't forget that the motherboard BIOS can play a part in this problem.
J
Jane
I did as you suggested and my digital also came up, without a blue screen.
Another uncommon ocurrence...............I think there is more to this issue
than we all realize.
Another uncommon ocurrence...............I think there is more to this issue
than we all realize.
B
Barry Watzman
The motherboard bios has no part in this ... the setup of a plug-in AGP
or PCI Express video card is handled entirely by the bios on the video
card. There is a "conversation" between the video card and the attached
monitor over the DDC (display data channel ... basically, a serial port
that is part of the DVI connection) wherein they exchange information
about what resolutions and refresh rates they each support. When the
display fails to work, it's either because this conversation failed
entirely (the programming of the DDC port and/or the details of the
message exchange was incompatible), or because there was no combination
of resolution / refresh rates / other timing parameters that was common
to both the video card and the monitor.
On most video cards, there is an attempt to conduct this exchange
between the card and the monitor once only, at power up, and if it fails
then (in particular if the monitor is not connected or not powered), the
DVI port isn't initialized at all and subsequent connection won't be
successful without a reboot. But some display cards may reattempt this
process periodcially.
The firmware in the display card (the card's bios) is somewhat space
constrained, and the windows drivers have more space (as much as they
need, really) to support a much wider variety of display modes than the
video bios. Also, the Windows drivers are more "fluid" in that they can
be revised while the display card's bios is frozen unless the
manufacturer wants to make display firmware upgrades available (and
generally, ATI doesn't seem to do this, in fact almost seems to have a
policy against it). Thus, after the card is shipping if it's discovered
that a particular display doesn't work, the video driver may be easily
revised do add whatever support is necessary. The firmware might be
revisable also (if space permits), but getting the revision installed
would require a firmware upgrade, and, again, ATI at least seems to have
a policy against firmware upgrades to their video cards.
[I'm a degreed engineer and have been a product manager for LCD monitor
displays]
or PCI Express video card is handled entirely by the bios on the video
card. There is a "conversation" between the video card and the attached
monitor over the DDC (display data channel ... basically, a serial port
that is part of the DVI connection) wherein they exchange information
about what resolutions and refresh rates they each support. When the
display fails to work, it's either because this conversation failed
entirely (the programming of the DDC port and/or the details of the
message exchange was incompatible), or because there was no combination
of resolution / refresh rates / other timing parameters that was common
to both the video card and the monitor.
On most video cards, there is an attempt to conduct this exchange
between the card and the monitor once only, at power up, and if it fails
then (in particular if the monitor is not connected or not powered), the
DVI port isn't initialized at all and subsequent connection won't be
successful without a reboot. But some display cards may reattempt this
process periodcially.
The firmware in the display card (the card's bios) is somewhat space
constrained, and the windows drivers have more space (as much as they
need, really) to support a much wider variety of display modes than the
video bios. Also, the Windows drivers are more "fluid" in that they can
be revised while the display card's bios is frozen unless the
manufacturer wants to make display firmware upgrades available (and
generally, ATI doesn't seem to do this, in fact almost seems to have a
policy against it). Thus, after the card is shipping if it's discovered
that a particular display doesn't work, the video driver may be easily
revised do add whatever support is necessary. The firmware might be
revisable also (if space permits), but getting the revision installed
would require a firmware upgrade, and, again, ATI at least seems to have
a policy against firmware upgrades to their video cards.
[I'm a degreed engineer and have been a product manager for LCD monitor
displays]
J
Jane
Sorry. I was referring to the boot config. submenu and choosing Plug and
play OS to let windows configure.
play OS to let windows configure.
Barry Watzman said:The question does not make sense to me; there is no such selection in most
BIOS'. Plug and Play is a software issue within windows. AGP is a
hardware slot on the motherboard. One is not an alternative to the other.
What if I choose plug and play instead of agp in the MB bios . Will that
do it?
Barry Watzman said:Re: "It's as if the drivers aren't loaded until the welcome screen."
That might be because they are in fact not loaded until the welcome
screen. There are no drivers during the boot process; support for that
time period depends on the firmware on the video card, and in your case,
it's safe to conclude that this firmware is incompatible with your
monitor. There is no solution other than to change the card or the
monitor. [In theory, a firmware update might fix the problem, but it's
unlikely either that such an upgrade exists or that you can get it.]
Jane wrote:
I have AIW 8500dv with 6.14 driver version and 9.2 Multimedia( ATI says
that is the latest for that card). It is connected to a 225bw Samsung
FP. with latest driver. When I connect with VGA I have no problems.
When I connect with DVI, I also have no problems at all, except just
with the boot process.The screen remains blank during boot up and comes
on at the windows xp home welcome screen. From there on no problems.
It's as if the drivers aren't loaded until the welcome screen. How do I
get the boot up process back with DVI? Thanks.
J
Jane
Thanks Sam...................................... Yes, I tried an older LCD
and it worked. The problem is a mystery. More to the point, a google search
shows that this problem goes back to the start of LCD use, and I found no
resolution, which makes you wonder why it has not been solved after all
these years. I did not know that low level operation was all that
complicated. Perhaps it's something more.
and it worked. The problem is a mystery. More to the point, a google search
shows that this problem goes back to the start of LCD use, and I found no
resolution, which makes you wonder why it has not been solved after all
these years. I did not know that low level operation was all that
complicated. Perhaps it's something more.
C
Custom Computers
Barry said:The motherboard bios has no part in this ... the setup of a plug-in AGP
or PCI Express video card is handled entirely by the bios on the video
card. There is a "conversation" between the video card and the attached
monitor over the DDC (display data channel ... basically, a serial port
that is part of the DVI connection) wherein they exchange information
about what resolutions and refresh rates they each support. When the
display fails to work, it's either because this conversation failed
entirely (the programming of the DDC port and/or the details of the
message exchange was incompatible), or because there was no combination
of resolution / refresh rates / other timing parameters that was common
to both the video card and the monitor.
On most video cards, there is an attempt to conduct this exchange
between the card and the monitor once only, at power up, and if it fails
then (in particular if the monitor is not connected or not powered), the
DVI port isn't initialized at all and subsequent connection won't be
successful without a reboot. But some display cards may reattempt this
process periodcially.
The firmware in the display card (the card's bios) is somewhat space
constrained, and the windows drivers have more space (as much as they
need, really) to support a much wider variety of display modes than the
video bios. Also, the Windows drivers are more "fluid" in that they can
be revised while the display card's bios is frozen unless the
manufacturer wants to make display firmware upgrades available (and
generally, ATI doesn't seem to do this, in fact almost seems to have a
policy against it). Thus, after the card is shipping if it's discovered
that a particular display doesn't work, the video driver may be easily
revised do add whatever support is necessary. The firmware might be
revisable also (if space permits), but getting the revision installed
would require a firmware upgrade, and, again, ATI at least seems to have
a policy against firmware upgrades to their video cards.
It's not just ATI you won't find firmware updates for nVidia cards
either. To me this problem is no big deal. I just keep one VGA LCD on
hand for setting up new systems, just as I do for keyboards and mouse
since not all motherboards will see a USB keyboard or mouse till you
can get into the BIOS so you need the good ole wired units to start
with. My normal use LCD doesn't have a VGA connection, its strickly
DVI, just like my video output on my computer is only DVI but it came
with a VGA adapter to work with older monitors.
[I'm a degreed engineer and have been a product manager for LCD monitor
displays]
Not necessarily unusual as that is how my system works.
Also don't forget that the motherboard BIOS can play a part in this problem.
B
Barry Watzman
That won't effect anything relevant to the DVI issue of the display not
working before Windows comes up.
working before Windows comes up.
Sorry. I was referring to the boot config. submenu and choosing Plug and
play OS to let windows configure.
Barry Watzman said:The question does not make sense to me; there is no such selection in most
BIOS'. Plug and Play is a software issue within windows. AGP is a
hardware slot on the motherboard. One is not an alternative to the other.
What if I choose plug and play instead of agp in the MB bios . Will that
do it?
Re: "It's as if the drivers aren't loaded until the welcome screen."
That might be because they are in fact not loaded until the welcome
screen. There are no drivers during the boot process; support for that
time period depends on the firmware on the video card, and in your case,
it's safe to conclude that this firmware is incompatible with your
monitor. There is no solution other than to change the card or the
monitor. [In theory, a firmware update might fix the problem, but it's
unlikely either that such an upgrade exists or that you can get it.]
Jane wrote:
I have AIW 8500dv with 6.14 driver version and 9.2 Multimedia( ATI says
that is the latest for that card). It is connected to a 225bw Samsung
FP. with latest driver. When I connect with VGA I have no problems.
When I connect with DVI, I also have no problems at all, except just
with the boot process.The screen remains blank during boot up and comes
on at the windows xp home welcome screen. From there on no problems.
It's as if the drivers aren't loaded until the welcome screen. How do I
get the boot up process back with DVI? Thanks.