ATI's next gen R420 getting 2-3x performance gains

[GMAN]

I was not aware that the penetration for even single consoles was sufficient
that one could say that "most people" have them. Nobody I know has
multiple game consoles--most people I know don't even have one.

We have 3 Gamebaoy Advanced's (3 boys) , 1 PS2, 2 PS1's, 3 computers networked

 

[~misfit~]

So you're saying he traded in his PS1 so he could buy a PS2 just to
play PS1 games till he could afford PS2 games? Why didn't he just
wait to buy the PS2? He could have waited for a price drop then turn
his PS1 in.

He got a couple of PS2 games with the machine (package). Games he badly
wanted to try. He also lacks patience.

 

[~misfit~]

That's silly. How much did he get for the used PS1? Exactly.

Not sure. As I said elsewhere in the thread, he got a couple of PS2 games he
wanted with the deal.

 

[USAF LM]

USAF LM wrote:


He got a couple of PS2 games with the machine (package).

That makes more sense.

Games he badly
wanted to try. He also lacks patience.

As a guitarist with a major case of G.A.S. I can understand that.

 

[Darthy]

He didn't say that.

That is what he said... I quoted above.

"When you look at latest X-box games, they look very up-to-date,
compared to current pc games. Despite console being 2-3 years old,
games looks good."

This says Xbox has better graphic games than current. PC games and
hardware.

When was UT2004 released? And is it any better than UT2003 or should
they have named it UT2004: Quake Clone II?

uh... a week ago. www.unreal.com choose the Yahoogame for fastet
download.

here is what folks are saying...
http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=262

UT2003 sucked ASS... (read the UT2004 thread in this group)

In the 10 or so days I've had the game, I've already racked up more
online hours than the year+ time I've owned UT2003... which I haven't
loaded up in 2 months. I was playing UT-classic (I have over 800 CTF
maps) until recently...

they fixed a lot of shit from UT2003.

 

[Darthy]

We have 3 Gamebaoy Advanced's (3 boys) , 1 PS2, 2 PS1's, 3 computers networked

How did you network the Playstations to the Game boys and your PCs?


I still have my original PS - that is hackable.... with about 7 games.

 

[USAF LM]

That is what he said... I quoted above.

"When you look at latest X-box games, they look very up-to-date,
compared to current pc games. Despite console being 2-3 years old,
games looks good."

This says Xbox has better graphic games than current. PC games and
hardware.

No, it doesn't. He said, "they look very up-to-date, compared to
current pc games." That doesn't say they are better than PC games. He
is using PC games as the standard to judge the Xbox games.

He also said, ". . .games look good." If he wanted to say they
looked better than PC games he would have said so.

I don't see anywhere in there where he stated Xbox games were superior
to PC games.

uh... a week ago. www.unreal.com choose the Yahoogame for fastet
download.

That's the demo not the actual game. I'm not saying the actual release
will be different, but UT 2K4 has not been released yet.

here is what folks are saying...
http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=262

That linked sends me to "Atari Forums - Demo Feedback"

UT2003 sucked ASS... (read the UT2004 thread in this group)

In the 10 or so days I've had the game, I've already racked up more
online hours than the year+ time I've owned UT2003... which I haven't
loaded up in 2 months. I was playing UT-classic (I have over 800 CTF
maps) until recently...

they fixed a lot of shit from UT2003.

Awesome, I'll pick it up when it comes out.

 

[Darthy]

That is what he said... I quoted above.

"When you look at latest X-box games, they look very up-to-date,
compared to current pc games. Despite console being 2-3 years old,
games looks good."

This says Xbox has better graphic games than current. PC games and
hardware.

No, it doesn't. He said, "they look very up-to-date, compared to
current pc games." That doesn't say they are better than PC games. He
is using PC games as the standard to judge the Xbox games.

He also said, ". . .games look good." If he wanted to say they
looked better than PC games he would have said so.

I don't see anywhere in there where he stated Xbox games were superior
to PC games.

You're not reading it right...

"XBOX GAMES" (subject) "They look up to date (the games themselves)
compared to current PC Games" (which is what is refered against).

"Despite console being 2-3 years old, games looks good." - (So here
hes saing the old GF3 based console looks very good).

Seems clear to me.

That's the demo not the actual game. I'm not saying the actual release
will be different, but UT 2K4 has not been released yet.

Really? Duh...

That linked sends me to "Atari Forums - Demo Feedback"

Really? I didn't know that! I wonder what kind of web site is that?
Pictures? Words? email sevice? Sorry, I thought it might have
comments or discussions about the game. I guess I miss-understood the
20~30+ pages per topic being nothing but static, that have been posted
in the past 2 weeks.

Awesome, I'll pick it up when it comes out.

You could download the demo now and know of the game is your bag.

 

[USAF LM]

Darthy wrote:

You're not reading it right...

You're reading it right, but you're coming to the wrong conclusion.

"XBOX GAMES" (subject) "They look up to date (the games themselves)
compared to current PC Games" (which is what is refered against).

That's what I said. He's comparing Xbox games to PC games. Looking up
to date is not the same as better.

"Despite console being 2-3 years old, games looks good." - (So here
hes saing the old GF3 based console looks very good).

Again, there is no "better than" modifier in that statement. He just
says they look good.

Seems clear to me.

It is, he never said they look better than PC games. Everything you
wrote above proves that.

Really? Duh...

I'm not the one who said UT 2K4 was released.

Really? I didn't know that!

You must not have since you said UT 2K4 was released already. Here's
the original exchange:

Me: When was UT2004 released? [Unrelated text snipped]

You: uh... a week ago. www.unreal.com choose the Yahoogame for fastet
download.

I wonder what kind of web site is that?
Pictures? Words? email sevice? Sorry, I thought it might have
comments or discussions about the game. I guess I miss-understood the
20~30+ pages per topic being nothing but static, that have been posted
in the past 2 weeks.

Do you know what a crosspost is? I don't read the PC gaming groups.

 

[James Lundquist]

GB is a poor analogy. You think GBA is a powerful platform?!
It could have been much better if they didn't include backwards
compatibility. But, including such on a portable system is highly
different from a console system. People cannot and will not
carry around several different portable systems whereas most
people can and do have multiple consoles. Even the smallest
of apartments can fit multiple consoles.

As long as M$ makes the XBOX 2 MUCH smaller!!!

 

[joe smith]

all the tricks in the hardware book for squeezing polygons

Triangles.

and frame-rate, and the Xbox2 hardware is totally different.
Emulation... forget it............

CPU emulation can be done without breaking a sweat. The code segments can be
be translated before it is executed, this kind of "emulation" is commonly
refered as JIT compilation on C# and Java environments. Only when cs is not
read-only, and is being written to (page execute read/write flag is set on
cr0) the emulation must take slower path. Chances are none to very slim that
even one XBOX title does write into the cs.

GPU emulation, is, just translating the render states. The obsolete NV
proprietary fragment programs aren't so flexible that they could not be
efficiently translated to PS3.0 instructions and VS1.X in XBOX is just
subset of VS3.0 featureset. The overhead is fragment program translation.

The emulation is well within the parameters of possible. It is another story
if Microsoft chooses to do it. I wouldn't mind either way if they do or
don't, I will get XBOX2 anyway when and/or if it comes out.

 

[xTenn]

As long as M$ makes the XBOX 2 MUCH smaller!!!

I really don't think it is that much bigger than the PS2, especially when
you consider component cabinets. But don't take my word for it, here is a
comparison photo straight on of an XBox, PS2 and Dreamcast, as they would
appear in a cabinet or shelf...

http://www.linkstew.org/pictures/xbox-comp/xboxsize3.jpg


The xbox is a little deeper, but with typical component designed pieces that
need to be accessed via the front this is not the issue.

..02

 

[xTenn]

GPU emulation, is, just translating the render states. The obsolete NV
proprietary fragment programs aren't so flexible that they could not be
efficiently translated to PS3.0 instructions and VS1.X in XBOX is just
subset of VS3.0 featureset. The overhead is fragment program translation.

Therein could possibly lie the problem - NVidia owns the proprietary GPU
tricks, if you will. Legally Microsoft might be in the similiar hot water
of emulating an NVidia card as if they were to emulate a PS2 - both are
conceivable possible, but both could lead to court issues. It will be
interesting to see how it plays out, technical issues not withstanding.

My money is still on an agreement being made with NVidia, but one will have
to exist before they can move forward with backwards compatibility without
threat down the road. Either way, it is going to be interesting...

 

[Phil]

The only backwards compatible console in recent history was the PS2, and ask
any PS2 owners you know how many PS1 games they play on their machine and
you'll see what a non-feature this is. Anyone who buys a console more than
six months after its launch is going to have a wide enough selection of
games that they likely wouldn't want to play titles from the previous
generation anyway. It would be nice, but it's by no means a necessary
feature.

Allowed me to get $30 out of my Playstation and still keep my games.
Secondly the earlier in a consoles life-span it is the more valuable
have an "extended library" is. Finally what about those that didn't
have a PS1 and got a PS2 or those that don't have PS2 but will get a
PS3? As you surely should see it is an important feature in more ways
than one.

 

[Phil]

I agree completely. None of my PS2 owning friends have any PS1 games. I
would say that backwards compatability is a nice feature especially as you
say in first six months of a consoles release. You could get that blend of
Xbox and Xbox 2 games. After that is rbackwards compatability really so
useful? Unless of course you start getting nostalgic and longing for the
days of Halo and KOTOR. If not including this feature will help to keep the
launch price of what I expect to be an already higher priced machine then
the original, so be it. It's not the back breaker some make it out to be.
Gamecube's lack of success had nothing to do with the fact that it is not
backwards compatible to N64. Yes one is cartridge and one is disc, no
matter, it's still not the difference in succes or failure. IMO.

The contunity it allows the consumer is a very good reason IMO. As for
the Xbox 2 being more than $299, don't bet on it and if it is, then
the Xbox 2 WILL flop.

 

[Phil]

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004, Zackman wrote:


I'd like to cite the Gameboy Advance as a counter example. The system is
backwards compatible with two previous generations of software. Alot of
older GB and GBC games are still popular and played on the new hardware.
Similarly, PS1 games are still played on the PS2 even though the PS2 has
been on the market for over three years. I wouldn't say playing older
titles is the main function of newer systems but backwards compatibility
is an important feature well into a system's lifetime.
Agreed.

Personally, I'm surprised no functioning X-Box emulator exists already.

LOL I'm sure it's not far off.

 

[Phil]

GB is a poor analogy. You think GBA is a powerful platform?!
It could have been much better if they didn't include backwards
compatibility. But, including such on a portable system is highly
different from a console system. People cannot and will not
carry around several different portable systems whereas most
people can and do have multiple consoles. Even the smallest
of apartments can fit multiple consoles.

Easy for U to say what w/ all 3 consoles out now a DVD player, cable
box, VCR, stereo and TV my room is full. The PS3 saving me room will
come in handy if I can't think up a solution. But that's not why I
think backwards compatinilty is important. The FACT that the optical
drive in ANY of the current generation of consoles WILL wear out is
why I KNOW it's important.

 

[Phil]

I admit that was not what I meant, which was that those who want
multiple consoles generally do and have no problem with finding
room for two (or more) consoles versus one.

What about 4 or 5 and so and so forth???

 

[Phil]

I really don't think it is that much bigger than the PS2, especially when
you consider component cabinets. But don't take my word for it, here is a
comparison photo straight on of an XBox, PS2 and Dreamcast, as they would
appear in a cabinet or shelf...

http://www.linkstew.org/pictures/xbox-comp/xboxsize3.jpg


The xbox is a little deeper, but with typical component designed pieces that
need to be accessed via the front this is not the issue.

IMO its more than a little deeper, made it a snug fit in my entertainment center.

 

[xTenn]

"xTenn" <[email protected]> wrote in message

IMO its more than a little deeper, made it a snug fit in my entertainment

center.


How shallow of an entertainment center did you buy? You DEFINITELY would
not be able to use a flat CDchanger or TV in this setup...