ATI makes false claims on HDCP support.............. !!

[J. Clarke]

I own the content. This is very well established in law.

Of course you will provide links to statute or case law that supports this
argument. No? I didn't think so.

I cannot
replicate it in a way which defames the COPYRIGHT owner

ROF,L--actually, that's the only way that you _can_ replicate it for
commercial use.

, or costs them a
sale, etc, but I own the stuff.

If you own it then you should be able to do anything you want to with it.

But you go ahead and chase your tail for a while, repeating what you
want to believe. It's funny watching you.

Uh, the fact that the copyright holder owns the content is the whole basis
of copyright law. But that may be too subtle for you.

 

[J. Clarke]

No, it's not well established. At all.

Care to provide some statute or case law that suggests that suggests that
the person holding the media also owns the content? No? Didn't think so.

 

[John Lewis]

You might want to look around at the numerous relevant legal findings.
When I buy something I own it, and no sealed tear-open "license" has any
legal effect.

Obviously you have never "bought" a retail copy of Half-Life2.
Valve owns it regardless of the seal.

John Lewis

 

[John Lewis]

Of course it's not there. If you buy a TV that's "HD ready", will it have a
HD tuner? No. You have to add a tuner/receiver card or box & connect it to
the TV. And the TV will display those HD inputs. If you buy a TV that
says it is "HD capable", then you expect a HD tuner built in & would
rightly have a gripe if it wasn't there. ATI didn't say the card is "HDCP
capable", just "HDCP ready". So, you either find the right
hardware/software to make use of the feature or wait till one comes out.
Just because ATI's marketing department took advantage of pointing out a
feature that there may be no way to use is irrelevant. The possibility is
still there to use external decryption

....excuse me.... via what connector to the external box ? The
encrypted signal does not conform in either data-format or
electrically with DVI/HDMI. I have not noticed any auxiliary data
connector on the products ATi claims to be HDCP-compatible.
I have not seen any external HDCP decrypter advertised by ATi.

ATi has been caught with their pants down. Not surprising for a
company scratching for revenue-$$, with a string of
product-introduction delays and currently-miserable revenue
from the Xbox360.

John Lewis

 

[Guest]

I wish everybody would just refuse to purchase any hardware or software
that has this technology in it. That will make the studios pushing this
crap onto the consumer stop this insanity.

Anyone ever here of fair-use laws?

Fair Use is merely a defense you can raise if sued for copyright
infringement. It places no requirement on content providers to issue their
content in a format that makes it possible for you do any of those things.

 

[Bill Kraski]

...excuse me.... via what connector to the external box ? The

You're excused. As I said, if there is such a box (I don't know that there
is.), ATI is saying their cards can output the DHCP signal.

encrypted signal does not conform in either data-format or
electrically with DVI/HDMI. I have not noticed any auxiliary data
connector on the products ATi claims to be HDCP-compatible.

No. You said it. They claim to be "HDCP ready". So, any piece of
electronics that will feed the board in such a way as to send signal to a
DVI or HDMI output on the board would make it HDCP compatible. Since such
an animal is not presently available to the public (if, indeed, they ever
will be), ATI's boards are "HDCP ready", but not "HDCP capable". Just as
there are TVs that are "HD ready" (no HD tuner, but can accept input from
an external HD tuner) and others that are "HD capable" (the tuner is built
into the set).

I have not seen any external HDCP decrypter advertised by ATi.

It doesn't have to. ATI never said they'd supply the electronics to create
the HDCP input to the board. For all either of us know, the proper
electronics could come from a third party. And, also possibly, that piece
of electronics could very well be vaporware. All ATI said by stating that
the boards are "HDCP ready" is that, given the proper input, the board will
output a HDCP signal. They can use any type of connection within the pc
that will allow the signal to be brought to the board in such a way as to
allow it to supply HDCP output. It doesn't even matter if that connection
is so proprietary that nobody wants to make the electronics to do it. All
ATI has to show is that, given HDCP input, their boards can supply HDCP
output.

I agree with you that they're pushing something that just isn't going to
happen "right out of the box". So, it's more a marketing ploy than
anything else. But it'd surprise me if they'd claim "HDCP ready" without
being able to show the FTC either the engineering that proves the statement
or a prototype setup that does it.

Bill K

 

[William]

I was around when the studios sued Sony over the Betamax in 1972. I was the
first technician in the intermountain west trained to service the Betamax.
I know what Fair-Use is all about. That lawsuit and its outcome gave me a
$40,000.00 plus a year job for over 25 years. Not only that, their is what
is done, and what is reported, and what is prosecuted. The three are
completely different matters. What I do in my own house, and no one knows
anything about, ain't going to be sued over.

I'm no dummy either, it took heavy lobbying on our congressmen to win that
lawsuit. I'm not sure their is the will or money to do the same this time
around. I was very disappointed that the digital millennium act didn't
address fair-use statues more. Also, ---SONY-- now owns one of the major
movie studios, so which side do you think Sony backs on this issue now?

The thing that concerns me the most --- the concentration of power. Fewer
and fewer people are telling more and more people what computers they can
have, what software they can run, when they can update the software, who
they can talk to, where they can go on the internet, who sees their e-mail,
who sees their medical records, where their money goes, and more.

It's going to get real bad before it gets better. Copy protection and
computer control is just a small piece in a big picture.

Sorry for the digression. I'm just kicking and screaming as we go down this
path that is plain to see by anyone who has been around for more than a few
years and pays attention.

Bill.

 

[William]

John:

HDCP is tomorrows technology. HP put a big cramp in threatening to jump to
HD-DVD if the group didn't put some user-friendly features into the
standard. This is still fluid. HDCP won't be around for at least 1 year,
maybe 2 more.

If you are any type of gamer - you will have purchased at least two new
graphics boards by then. Give it a rest.

HDCP is in the FUTURE. (Barf, gasp, spit, puff, gag, sniff) Wait until we
are told what we get to see or not, the old trusted software authentication
system. Got old software, hardware? Too bad, it's off the list, so you
don't get to use it anymore.

Be happy.

Bill

 

[Wilf Wood]

Sorry for the digression. I'm just kicking and screaming as we go down this
path that is plain to see by anyone who has been around for more than a few
years and pays attention.

Bill.

Yea, it's a "Brave New World". Now, where the **** is my Soma?

 

[John Lewis]

You're excused. As I said, if there is such a box (I don't know that there
is.), ATI is saying their cards can output the DHCP signal.


No. You said it. They claim to be "HDCP ready". So, any piece of
electronics that will feed the board in such a way as to send signal to a
DVI or HDMI output on the board would make it HDCP compatible. Since such
an animal is not presently available to the public (if, indeed, they ever
will be), ATI's boards are "HDCP ready", but not "HDCP capable". Just as
there are TVs that are "HD ready" (no HD tuner, but can accept input from
an external HD tuner) and others that are "HD capable" (the tuner is built
into the set).


It doesn't have to. ATI never said they'd supply the electronics to create
the HDCP input to the board. For all either of us know, the proper
electronics could come from a third party. And, also possibly, that piece
of electronics could very well be vaporware. All ATI said by stating that
the boards are "HDCP ready" is that, given the proper input, the board will
output a HDCP signal. They can use any type of connection within the pc
that will allow the signal to be brought to the board in such a way as to
allow it to supply HDCP output. It doesn't even matter if that connection
is so proprietary that nobody wants to make the electronics to do it. All
ATI has to show is that, given HDCP input, their boards can supply HDCP
output.

I agree with you that they're pushing something that just isn't going to
happen "right out of the box". So, it's more a marketing ploy than
anything else. But it'd surprise me if they'd claim "HDCP ready" without
being able to show the FTC either the engineering that proves the statement
or a prototype setup that does it.

Bill K

Any device compliant with HDCP requires to have the
capability of handshaking-authentication with HDCP middleware
or devices BOTH upstream and downstream -- in the case of a
video card, the upstream data-stream from a Blu-ray/HD-DVD
drive and downstream the HDCP-compatible HDTV monitor.

The silicon required to do the upstream/downstream
key-authentication/handshake function and the downstream
re-encryption is totally missing from the claimed "HDCP-ready"
ATi card-products, The key-authentication cannot be emulated in
software, it has to be hard-encoded in silicon for obvious security
reasons.

With the silicon missing, the graphics card will be FORCED
( by the lack of HDCP recognition of the card by the upstream
middleware ) to accept and process only the lower-resolution
unencrypted output (480p) from the Blu-ray/HD-DVD drive
and then pass the resultant ouput on via unencrypted
DVI/HDMI to the HDTV monitor.

BTW, most of the latest-gen widescreen DVI/HDMI-input
HDTV receivers are already HDCP-compatible. DVI/HDMI
computer-monitors are still a mixed-bag as far as HDCP
compatibility goes.

For the HDCP specs, please see:-

http://www.digital-cp.com/home

John Lewis

 

[Mark C.]

The key-authentication cannot be emulated in software

Says who? Just by virtue of its blacklisting, Intel is obviously anticipating
HDCP will be cracked. From the spec, it's nothing more challenging than
a basic dongle or firmware crack. The region encoding nightmare all over
again.

 

[J. Clarke]

Any device compliant with HDCP requires to have the
capability of handshaking-authentication with HDCP middleware
or devices BOTH upstream and downstream -- in the case of a
video card, the upstream data-stream from a Blu-ray/HD-DVD
drive

Well, now, it seems to me that until someone invents an HDCP-compliant disk
controller there isn't much to worry about in that department.

and downstream the HDCP-compatible HDTV monitor.

The silicon required to do the upstream/downstream
key-authentication/handshake function and the downstream
re-encryption is totally missing from the claimed "HDCP-ready"
ATi card-products, The key-authentication cannot be emulated in
software, it has to be hard-encoded in silicon for obvious security
reasons.

It's also missing from everything that goes between the video board and the
disk, all of which would have to have it if your scenario was realistic, so
the lack of it in the video board would seem to be at best a minor issue.

With the silicon missing, the graphics card will be FORCED
( by the lack of HDCP recognition of the card by the upstream
middleware ) to accept and process only the lower-resolution
unencrypted output (480p) from the Blu-ray/HD-DVD drive
and then pass the resultant ouput on via unencrypted
DVI/HDMI to the HDTV monitor.

If that's the case, it's not going to even SEE that output because the disk
controller and the bus controller and the processor and everything else in
between also lacks that capability.

BTW, most of the latest-gen widescreen DVI/HDMI-input
HDTV receivers are already HDCP-compatible. DVI/HDMI
computer-monitors are still a mixed-bag as far as HDCP
compatibility goes.

For the HDCP specs, please see:-

http://www.digital-cp.com/home

Yeah, and what I see there is that there is no provision for any kind of
interaction between the video board and a disk. That's just vaguely
blocked as "application/middleware". If in fact the disk MUST be connected
ONLY to an HDCP-compliant video board, since there is no provision
whatsoever on any video board to directly connect a disk, none of them will
ever work with blu-ray and blu-ray will never work with any personal
computer of any kind that is currently in existence, so blu-ray is dead
before it starts and the issue is moot.

If it is _not_ connected directly to the video board then it has no way of
determining what chip or chips or algorithms or keys or anything else are
present on that board unless the intervening hardware and software provides
some means of providing that information, and again the issue is moot
unless and until such provision comes into existence. If the requirement
is some kind of protective hardware http://www.digital-cp.com/home

in each step along the path, such hardware does not exist and there

appear to be no plans to implement it, so blu-ray disks cannot be connected
to computers of any kind and again they are dead and the issue is moot.

If the requirement can be handled by software, software can _always_ be
cracked given sufficient time and effort so it is only a matter of time
until whatever protection in place gets cracked and the existence or
nonexistence of some chip on the video board again becomes irrelevant.

Sorry, but you're not making much of an argument here and I'm becoming more
and more convinced that you have never in your life actually seen the
inside of a computer.

 

[J. Clarke]

Well, now, it seems to me that until someone invents an HDCP-compliant
disk controller there isn't much to worry about in that department.


It's also missing from everything that goes between the video board and
the disk, all of which would have to have it if your scenario was
realistic, so the lack of it in the video board would seem to be at best a
minor issue.


If that's the case, it's not going to even SEE that output because the
disk controller and the bus controller and the processor and everything
else in between also lacks that capability.


Yeah, and what I see there is that there is no provision for any kind of
interaction between the video board and a disk. That's just vaguely
blocked as "application/middleware". If in fact the disk MUST be
connected ONLY to an HDCP-compliant video board, since there is no
provision whatsoever on any video board to directly connect a disk, none
of them will ever work with blu-ray and blu-ray will never work with any
personal computer of any kind that is currently in existence, so blu-ray
is dead before it starts and the issue is moot.

If it is _not_ connected directly to the video board then it has no way of
determining what chip or chips or algorithms or keys or anything else are
present on that board unless the intervening hardware and software
provides some means of providing that information, and again the issue is
moot
unless and until such provision comes into existence. If the requirement
is some kind of protective hardware

Dunno where that link came from--wasn't supposed to be there. Please ignore
it.