ATI acknowledges the channel change times problem with MMC v9.06

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Todd said:
Hey gang,

I hope I didn't offend anyone with my last post. It is just sort of driving me mad :-/

Here another symptom I forgot to mention. When you do run the TV Wonder audio out to the
Audigy's microphone in, you get echoey audio on live listening. To stop it you must shut
down the TV Wonder, then reopen it. And even after making certain the 20 dB boost isn't
activated, it will reactivate itself on reboot and provides low quality distorted sound no
matter what I do.

So I think my annoyance with ATi is more than justified. They just don't give any
indication that they care at all about this. They have your money and that's all they
intend to do >:-(
Click to expand...
I don't seem to be able to retrieve your original post. Could you state the
version of your TV Wonder(VE,PRO,etc) and Audigy(original,2,2z,etc) Which
version TV Wonder drivers, MMC and Audigy drivers. Your O/S.

I think the recommendation for using the Mic input comes from articles that
are referring to using the TV Wonder and AIW together. Someone at ATI got
careless in pasting between articles. Use the Line-In if you don't have an
AIW or the internal Aux if you do(or you can use Aux even if you don't have
an AIW).

In the Creative Mixer do you have the "What You Hear" input? If you do make
sure you have the latest drivers. In the beginning this caused a lot of
problems with my Audigy2 & AIW. I had no problems with the SB Live.

MMC save settings when it shuts down. If it crashes the new settings are
lost.

HTH YMMV
 
Paul,

Thanks for your patient and helpful responses :)

I will try the internal AUX input and get back to you. It may take me a day or two to get
this done but I will respond in this thread again.
 
Please use tinyurl.com!
<ant snipped>
Even tinyurl.com wouldn't fix the problems with those links not working -
see my post earlier in the thread. ATI have changed aspects of their site to
time out after 10 minutes.
Click to expand...

Wow, that sucks. I don't like ATI's Web site design now. Thanks for the
explaination. :)
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( )
 
Hey T Shadow,

Thanks for your input. I have a TV Wonder Pro and an Audigy2 ZS Platinum. Every driver
and MMC, etc., is the very latest offered, all running under WinXP sp2. I have already
tried the Line In input on the Audigy and this results in echoes, with no audio on
playback :(

I do have the "What You Hear" option in Creative's mixer. Still, echoes plague this
setup and I don't comprehend what Creative is hoping to achieve with the WYH option. What
happens is that 2 signals are being fed to 2 different output options. For instance, if I
use Line In as my input, upon listening to a live TV broadcast the audio is being played
back not only from the Line Out but also from the Wave Out. One is slightly delayed
resulting is a big reverb echo sound, getting worse as you increase the playback level
from either slider. To stop it I must shut down the TV app. That is basically the best
description I can give you of what is happening.
 
PS Not once in all of my attempts to capture TV with this setup have I actually managed
to get the audio with it! Not once! Audio is only live or not at all.
 
Todd said:
Hey T Shadow,

Thanks for your input. I have a TV Wonder Pro and an Audigy2 ZS Platinum. Every driver
and MMC, etc., is the very latest offered, all running under WinXP sp2.I have already
tried the Line In input on the Audigy and this results in echoes, with no audio on
playback :(

I do have the "What You Hear" option in Creative's mixer. Still, echoes plague this
setup and I don't comprehend what Creative is hoping to achieve with the WYH option. What
happens is that 2 signals are being fed to 2 different output options. For instance, if I
use Line In as my input, upon listening to a live TV broadcast the audio is being played
back not only from the Line Out but also from the Wave Out. One is slightly delayed
resulting is a big reverb echo sound, getting worse as you increase theplayback level
from either slider. To stop it I must shut down the TV app. That is basically the best
description I can give you of what is happening.
Click to expand...



Sorry if I am way off here but I assumed that this was a sound card issue.
I guess you saying the Special build Creative drivers mentioned by ATI inmy
last post are not for your card. hmmm....


re:ATI
"Creative has made available a special version of their drivers, which allows
the ATI MULTIMEDIA CENTER™ to function correctly."
"These drivers are version 250 (or later) of the Audigy drivers. Please make
sure you are using the correct drivers."
 
I can't find any special drivers on Creative's site. So I just used the newest ones.

Have you found the special Creative drivers? Got a link to the page?
 
After searching the Creative site, this is all I could find:



The newest version of Multimedia Center from ATI along with the updated Audigy drivers
should allow the software to work to work. I want you to check a few things:

1) Make sure you have the line out on the ATI card plugged into the line-in on the Sound
Card
2) Make sure that the Line In on the sound card is not muted in the surround mixer and
that Analog Mix is selected as the recording source for the sound card.
3) Check with ATI to make sure Multimedia Center is set to use the line out and not an
internal connection.

Jeremy
Forum Moderator
Creative Labs

________________

So my last option is to try the internal audio connector and disable the external one :/
 
Todd said:
After searching the Creative site, this is all I could find:



The newest version of Multimedia Center from ATI along with the updated
Audigy drivers should allow the software to work to work. I want you to
check a few things:

1) Make sure you have the line out on the ATI card plugged into the
line-in on the Sound Card
2) Make sure that the Line In on the sound card is not muted in the
surround mixer and that Analog Mix is selected as the recording source for
the sound card.
3) Check with ATI to make sure Multimedia Center is set to use the line
out and not an internal connection.

Jeremy
Forum Moderator
Creative Labs

________________

So my last option is to try the internal audio connector and disable the
external one :/
Click to expand...
I've never owned an Audigy but I remember that my SB Live card had some
settings which were for deliberately changing the sound - e.g. adding
reverberation etc. Perhaps something has gone wrong in this department -
hence the echoing. Even if you've checked all of these settings to make sure
they're at default values perhaps the system has been corrupted and only a
complete reinstall on a formatted HDD is the solution. Although reinstalls
can be tedious, as long as you have all the software CDs (or even better a
restore CD) and you backup your data before you start, the process of
restoring a machine to a factory state is actually quite straight forward. I
think using an internal connector - preferably to the soundcards Aux
connector is preferable to an external cable. If you have a read (and
search) of the www.rage3d.com forums there will be plenty of people who have
reported no such problems with their Audigy's being used with TV Wonder
cards so that makes me suspect it's something else unique to your setup.

Paul
 
Todd said:
Hey T Shadow,

Thanks for your input. I have a TV Wonder Pro and an Audigy2 ZS Platinum. Every driver
and MMC, etc., is the very latest offered, all running under WinXP sp2. I have already
tried the Line In input on the Audigy and this results in echoes, with no audio on
playback :(

I do have the "What You Hear" option in Creative's mixer. Still, echoes plague this
setup and I don't comprehend what Creative is hoping to achieve with the WYH option. What
happens is that 2 signals are being fed to 2 different output options. For instance, if I
use Line In as my input, upon listening to a live TV broadcast the audio is being played
back not only from the Line Out but also from the Wave Out. One is slightly delayed
resulting is a big reverb echo sound, getting worse as you increase the playback level
from either slider. To stop it I must shut down the TV app. That is basically the best
description I can give you of what is happening.
Click to expand...

As far as WYH, me either.
I went to MMC 9.06 on my system too. 9.06 has my AIW9600 routing the sound
digitally through the bus so I can't play with it but here's how it was set
when using analog.
Use Line-In or Aux doesn't matter. In Creative Mixer set the record slider
to Analog Mix then click on the red + sign above the slider icon and set it
to "Record Without Monitoring". Mute everything but Master and the chosen
input.
In TV Player set it to the chosen input and make sure TVoD(PVR) is turned
off and you are not recording. If you hear an echo with the settings like
this go into the EAX console and makes sure effects are turned off in all 4
tabs.
If it's working OK turn on the other inputs in Mixer starting with Wave.

Never used Media Scource but this seems to confirm my settings. What You
Hear includes the Wave input and Analog Mix does not ID#6728 on Creative
site.
Didn't have time to read it but this may be usefull too. ID#1540
 
Hi Paul,

This IS a fresh install from about 2 weeks ago! No other MMCs or drivers have ever been on
this rig. I've seen problems from cross-pollinations between MMCs, etc., so I know what
you are talking about.

ATi has done a wonderful job straightening out their video card drivers over the last
couple of years. (I remember when they were literally the curse of the industry.) However,
ATi has serious problems with their MMCs and how they integrate with their entire line of
TV cards and AIWs. One MMC can be like night and day compared to the very next one in the
series. ATi MUST standardize their approach and rationale when it comes to adopting a
standard electronic interface between cards like the Audigy (the de facto standard in the
PC world) and their line of products.

Words fail me in this particular case. I'm trained as an audio engineer and NOTHING should
be this convoluted in signal flow :-/
 
OK fair enough if you've performed a fresh install its likely just to be
associated with that non-standard Audigy driver issue. Going by that link
(knowledgebase number 650) it really does look as if there's not much ATI
can do to fix this (or that you can do as long as the Audigy and TV Wonder
Pro both remains together in the same machine) - given that the problem is
associated with Creative drivers having grouped volume controls. Just
because Creative are the main player in the soundcard business doesn't mean
they should be able to go off on a limb with their driver design and expect
everyone else to change their software to suit. I guess if your work is in
audio then there may be a "standardisation" requirement for you to use a SB
Audigy card but otherwise a change of audio card would surely fix it.

I agree with you re ATI's Graphics Card driver improvements. The drivers
have been developed to control ATIs own hardware designs though. Its a bit
different to the situation with MMC where the software attempts to control
both their own graphics card AND audio mixer software from another
manufacturer. I think that your efforts may be better directed by writing to
Creative and asking THEM to make a more standard driver that works with MMC
without needing workarounds - especially given that you cant get the
workaround to work. There are audio issues with some audio devices and MMC
(the one that stands out in my mind is audio hiss on TV recordings with
certain CMedia 8xxx sound chips in specific circumstances) but these again
are due to non standard audio devices and drivers. ATI have recently
implemented changes in certain All In Wonder Radeon 9xxx series drivers
which allows audio to go through the PCI bus. The brand new TV Wonder Elite
also does this. The only way I can think they may be able to resolve your
issue is if they could do the same for your TV Wonder Pro drivers but I
don't know if that's possible on such hardware. Additionally it may deter
people from buying the more lavish TV Wonder Elite. I see the TV Wonder
Elite isn't listed as one of the affected products on that list so perhaps a
change of TV Tuner may be another solution. Lots of options but
unfortunately none of the certain cures are free. Good luck getting it
resolved!

Paul
 
Thanks for your feedback, Paul. You've been patient and helpful and this speaks to your
day to day character. Your company must love you ;)

I am almost tempted to just put my old SoundBlaster Live! Value back in but this Audigy
Platinum looks drop dead gorgeous in my rig, what with its In/Out port on the front of the
PC with its firewire access and 1/4" plug inputs.

I must admit I'm fussy that way. I like my rig to look as great as it runs. Right now it
looks somewhat better than it runs ;(

Here is another problem I always have. When the TV program is finished capturing, how do
you get MMC to close itself? It will just run and run until shut off manually but I want
it to look after itself and shut down when the recording is done, so I can leave it
unattended for a few hours if I am away from my desk.
 
Todd said:
Thanks for your feedback, Paul. You've been patient and helpful and this
speaks to your day to day character. Your company must love you ;)

I am almost tempted to just put my old SoundBlaster Live! Value back in
but this Audigy Platinum looks drop dead gorgeous in my rig, what with its
In/Out port on the front of the PC with its firewire access and 1/4" plug
inputs.
Click to expand...
Well if you're keen to keep the soundcard, then you could always upgrade the
TV Tuner to the TV Wonder Elite (although I'd be inclined to buy it from a
seller who provides a no quibbles return policy just in case the problem is
still present). I'm sure a TV Wonder Pro would still fetch a few pounds on
eBay - if it was a PAL version I'd be interested! Otherwise if you've
already got the SB Live then why not go with that - is the Audigy Livedrive
or I/O port not compatible with it (ignoring the unsupported bits such as
the firewire ports)? Your sound quality overall won't be the very best but
even the Audigy isn't that great in reviews for audio quality, when compared
to some other similarly priced cards.
I must admit I'm fussy that way. I like my rig to look as great as it
runs. Right now it looks somewhat better than it runs ;(

Here is another problem I always have. When the TV program is finished
capturing, how do you get MMC to close itself? It will just run and run
until shut off manually but I want it to look after itself and shut down
when the recording is done, so I can leave it unattended for a few hours
if I am away from my desk.
Click to expand...

There's an option in MMC to do precisely that in step 4 of the schedule
wizard - there's a tick box titled "Close Multimedia Centre when complete".
Personally I use MMC in conjunction with Digiguide and Dabdig for my
recording and it takes care of my needs precisely.

Paul
 
Here in Canada the TV Wonder is the only game in town because it comes with Guide+, which
is the only company that provides Canadian TV schedules that integrate with the card. You
can buy the TV Elite but it is not supported by Guide+ and comes with a worse package than
MMC :(

I don't really hear any difference in sound quality between the Audigy and Live!

Thanks for the tip on closing the MMC!
 
Todd said:
Here in Canada the TV Wonder is the only game in town because it comes
with Guide+, which is the only company that provides Canadian TV schedules
that integrate with the card. You can buy the TV Elite but it is not
supported by Guide+ and comes with a worse package than MMC :(
Click to expand...

Very good point - there's no guarantee the Elite wouldn't have the same
problem anyway so fair enough if you dont want the Elite.
I don't really hear any difference in sound quality between the Audigy and
Live!
Click to expand...

Personally I cant tell the difference between the onboard sound on my
ancient VIA chipset motherboard and the Turtlebeach SantaCruz in another
machine but according to reviews (cant remember where I read them), they're
poles apart. I also cant even tell Pepsi from Coke! I guess I assumed
(wrongly) that because you worked/were trained as an audio engineer, you'd
have more finely tuned vears than mine :-)
Thanks for the tip on closing the MMC!
Click to expand...
Good luck ruining it with the SB Live.

Paul
 
Well, that's the thing; you can measure a difference in signal to noise ratio and dynamic
range and what not, but at these levels the human ear can't detect those things. Thus the
SoundBlaster Live! will sound just as good as an Audigy with superhero specs. Hey,
Creative is just trying to sell you a new card, not educate you as to why specs beyond the
Live!'s are meaningless.

By the way, when using the Guide+ scheduling software, it doesn't offer you the option of
closing the MMC when the recording is done. Bummer ...
 
Todd said:
Well, that's the thing; you can measure a difference in signal to noise
ratio and dynamic range and what not, but at these levels the human ear
can't detect those things. Thus the SoundBlaster Live! will sound just as
good as an Audigy with superhero specs. Hey, Creative is just trying to
sell you a new card, not educate you as to why specs beyond the Live!'s
are meaningless.

By the way, when using the Guide+ scheduling software, it doesn't offer
you the option of closing the MMC when the recording is done. Bummer ...
Click to expand...
Guideplus isn't available in the UK so alas I cant help. I have tried
manually installing it on my machine once (it came on the ATI CDROM anyway)
but got nowhere fast. It might be worth reviewing the ATI website unless any
US users of guideplus can help?

Paul
 
OK Paul,

I finally rounded up a useable internal connector cable and tried it out on the Auxiliary
input. The closest I could get was much delayed sound and a constant echo. No matter how I
tried to configure it in the configuration wizard ...

I guess it is time to try the MMC that came with the card and see what happens :(
 
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