ASUS Sabertooth z87 unstable

[philo]

I've got an RMA number, but I wanted a rapid/advanced replacement, which
they apparently offer for $10 and a hold on my credit card. But that's
where the process has fallen off the wheels, the department that is
supposed to initiate that process apparently hasn't bothered, despite
the front-line support having sent the request multiple times.

However, since I'm mostly stable now without it, I'm inclined to just
let them do their own thing for a few days, then once it's been a bit
longer, I have more of a case to escalate it and get it happening.

As it turns out, I'll be out of town from Saturday through Thursday
anyway, so it would just sit on my workbench waiting for me, so it makes
it easier to be patient

I know all about patience.

One day I noticed in my bathroom there was a bare light-bulb with no
fixture. It had been like that for ten years.

I went to the hardware store to get one but they were out. They said
they were getting a new supply in three days.


Of course I hurried to another store...no way was I going to wait that long!

 

[larrymoencurly]

I've got a brand new ASUS Sabertooth z87 which is acting a bit unstable.
It started with a BSOD when enabling Hyper-V, or when installing certain
drivers (Intel's Rapid Storage, for example), but after a BSOD,
resetting using the hardware reset switch would hang on the logo of the
BIOS screen.

4 sticks of Corsair XMS3 CMX12GX3M3A1333C9 4GB DDR3-1333,

I've run CPU and memory tests (Prime95, Windows 8 memory diagnostic and
MemTest86), temperatures stay normal. ASUS's diagnostics reports a RTC
failure, but otherwise no issues.

I don't know how a diagnostic can tell whether the RTC (Real Time
Clock, run from the power supply) has failed or if the ATC (Absolute
Time Clock, powered by the CMOS battery or the +5Vstandby rail) has
failed when they're checked against one another. I've twice seen
the ATC's 32 KHz quartz crystal go nuts and make the clock inaccurate
by minutes a day or even run at twice the normal rate. The solution
was to disconnect all power to the quartz crystal -- unplug the AC,
remove the battery, and either wait for hours or short the two
terminals of the EMPTY battery holder for a few seconds. Just
unplugging the AC and moving the CMOS jumper isn't enough. Also
don't rule out a weak battery, even if it reads OK with a meter,
because some CMOS clocks require higher voltage than others and
will be flaky unless the battery puts out more than 3.0V.

It may help to run with only 1-2 memory modules because a lot
of motherboards don't like 4 modules at once, except maybe if
underclocked, especially low quality memory like that Corsair,
which is made from chips that are either overclocked or chip
factory rejects. XbitLabs.com and APHnetworks.com have done
reviews where they removed the heatsinks and revealed this.
Generally 1333 MHz and slower modules will have no-name factory
reject chips, while faster modules use 1333 MHz chips, even
those rated by the module makers for twice that speed. Lots
of marginal memory will pass diagnostics, but generally if you
test with both MemTest86/86+ AND Gold Memory for a few days,
the defects will come out.

 

[larrymoencurly]

Different memory modules may use different architectures
while providing the same memory capacity. You want the same
architecture on all memory modules. Although you said you
didn't get all 4 as a 4-pack matched set, and despite Corsair
doesn't manufacture anything but specs out what their supplier
is supposed to deliver to them on which Corsair slaps their
sticker, the architecture probably matches on those 4 memory
modules from the same source for the same model number.
However, that only requires the hardware to match on Corsair's
specs. If a memory module fits in Corsair's specs and at the
same price tier then they may end up mixing modules from
different makers or different models from the same maker.
Corsairs produces no hardware. They resell it.

I Googled "Corsair factory tour" and found some evidence that
they do solder RAM chips to tiny circuit boards, at least they
did as recently as 2007:

2007: http://teamau.net/5

2004: www.bit-tech.net/bits/2004/09/20/corsair_factory_tour/1

2005: www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/Corsair-Factory-Tour-in-Fremont-CA-USA/166

2005: www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/Corsair-New-Factory-Tour-in-Fremont-CA-USA/222/2

Corsair tests using motherboards running Ultra-X RST cards, which
are supposed to be better than MemTest86/86+ and Gold Memory at
finding errors. The maximum test temperature has been reported as
45C, 58C, or 75C. OTOH loads of Corsair I've bought has failed
my own testing at room temperature.

 

[Darklight]

Yeah, this CPU was supported by all versions of the BIOS. BIOS update
possibly made the BIOS hangs worse although it did make the system more
stable once it's in the OS -- In fact, at this point it's pretty close
to rock solid once the OS is booted.

May i ask what OS you are using? And what happens say if you change the OS.
I had a m5a99x-evo Which took a long time to boot.

 

[VanguardLH]

Something I didn't think about asking: does the problem arise on every
boot whether it is a cold or warm boot or does it only happen on, say, a
cold boot (where you've not only done a shutdown from the Windows
session and dropped the power but the computer has also sat to cool off
for awhile, like an hour, or more)? It is during cold (boot type and
computer temperature being at room temperature) boots only the problem
arises?

If it only arises during a cold [temperature] boot then perhaps it's a
thermal expansion problem. You say once it gets into the OS that the
computer remains stable but that's after it's partially warmed up.
Thermal expansion could cause intermittent contacts. The mobo will bend
a bit because obviously the components generating heat produce an uneven
thermal distribution across the mobo. Did you make sure to use
hold-down screws on the mobo whose heads do not extend beyond the plated
holes in the mobo through which they pass through? The armor plate
would make it impossible to inspect and removing it would be a pain but
a solder flake could cause problems during thermaling.

Have you removed and reseated all cabling to the mobo and to all
internal devices? Removed and reseated memory modules? Reseated the
CPU (which may require removing the heatsink to get at the zero-force
lever of the CPU socket - so have some thermal paste available to redo
it on the CPU-heatsink)? With the heatsink off the CPU, check the
pattern of the old thermal paste. You don't want it thick as it is to
compensate for air gaps and micropores at the metal-metal interface.
Air is worst, thermal paste is better, but metal to metal contact is far
superior.

From the pics at Newegg, there are a couple tiny fans that come with the
mobo retail kit. The pics show the mobo without these tiny fans and it
looks like there are a couple of cover plates that you can remove to
install the fans. Did you use the tiny fans that came with the mobo?
Are you using the stock HSF that came with the CPU or are you using a
3rd party HSF (because you think you need a bigger monster combo for
cooling the CPU)?

Have you spun the CPU, GPU, chipset, and PSU fans to ensure there is no
ticking felt as they rotate or any resistance to spinning? If you give
them a fling to start spinning, do they rotate a few turns before
stopping and slowly spin down rather than abruptly stop? If fans,
especially the CPU, are slow to spin up (too low voltage, something
rubbing against the fins outside the fan's shell or even the blades
against the shell, resistance in its bearings, the moulded blade not
completely pressed down and snapped onto the spindle), the BIOS will see
the fan as not spinning fast enough and as a safety procedure shutdown
the computer. A fan that is bad in not reporting its RPM or showing an
overly low RPM value on the CPU will have the BIOS think it's not
spinning fast enough and shutdown the computer.

You're story between respondents is inconsistent. In your starter post,
you said, "It has since progressed to periodically hanging on the logo
(before any other details appear) occasionally on startup, and more
frequently after an OS reboot." Yet to Darklight you said, "[after a
BIOS update] it's pretty close to rock solid once the OS is booted."

 

[VanguardLH]

I know all about patience. One day I noticed in my bathroom there was
a bare light-bulb with no fixture. It had been like that for ten
years. I went to the hardware store to get one but they were out.
They said they were getting a new supply in three days. Of course I
hurried to another store...no way was I going to wait that long!

If you're in the US, better go back to the store to stock up on the
cheap old incandescent light bulbs (if that's what you meant by "bare
bulb"). Production of them will or has ceased so what you can get is
what is left in stock.

http://www.money.cnn.com/2013/12/13/news/economy/light-bulb-ban/index.html

Yep, you get to pay more on initial cost for high-efficienty
incandescents, CFLs, and LEDs to give the utilities more time before
they even start to mend their failing grids while still upping your
rates (but not as much as if they started mending now).

 

[Paul]

If you're in the US, better go back to the store to stock up on the
cheap old incandescent light bulbs (if that's what you meant by "bare
bulb"). Production of them will or has ceased so what you can get is
what is left in stock.

http://www.money.cnn.com/2013/12/13/news/economy/light-bulb-ban/index.html

Yep, you get to pay more on initial cost for high-efficienty
incandescents, CFLs, and LEDs to give the utilities more time before
they even start to mend their failing grids while still upping your
rates (but not as much as if they started mending now).

I don't have a problem with them outlawing an inefficient bulb.

I do have a problem with what they're replacing them with.

Of the available types for 2014:

1) Halogen
2) CFL
3) LED

only the first is perfectly compatible with fixturing.

The other two types, could overheat if surrounded by
a globe. Our old kitchen light back home, has a
heavy glass globe around it, with frosting in areas,
to diffuse the light. Once (2) or (3) are placed
inside, the power converter in the base of the
bulb will be subject to high temperature.
While the basic light emitting tech of the bulb might
be rated for 10,000 or 25,000, the base can have an
electrolytic capacitor in it, which will be "cooked"
by the heat. The base might fail after 2000 hours,
spoiling the economics. Only the power company wins,
not me. I win a prize, of having to buy another crap bulb.

Only the halogen is compatible with existing fixtures.
The one halogen product I had here, had all sorts
of absurd safety warnings about explosion risk, being
showered with debris and so on. Presumably, to cover
what happens if the glass envelope (protective second
outer layer), is scored or scratched, and could then
crack. If a halogen failed, depending on the halogen
inside the gas filled part, the gas itself probably
isn't that "tasty".

Just about every product now, "stinks" when it fails.
A halogen (that doesn't break), should be OK and odor free.
The halogen just isn't that efficient (43W for 60W equivalent).

On the LEDs, there are two types. Bulbs made with a
phosphor coating right on the LED die. And the newer
concept which is remote phosphor (remote phosphor illuminated
by blue LEDs, with a couple red LEDs thrown in to make it
"warm" in color). I bought one sample of a remote phosphor,
says on the box "this bulb is *not* yellow". Took it home,
plugged it in, did some simple color testing,
and... it's yellow Hilarious. I love marketing.
I wish I lived in England and they tried that crap
("fit for use").

I've seen precisely one LED bulb, for which the color
was "bang on". A perfect substitute for incandescent.
In that, the color wasn't absurdly off. Only problem
with the bulb, is it weighed around a pound, and ran hot.
15W to make 60W versus the 10W-12W the new remote phosphor
ones use. There were reports of early failures
for that 15W bulb. And like all great products, it's no
longer for sale, replaced by another generation of
losers. The form factor of that one, it's shaped
like a flood light, a big bulb. 2202LEDNR30-LF3-8FR

(Pretty close to what I got - my base was white I think.
Only the color of the light is good, and what I compare
the crap ones to.)

http://www.robertshardware.com/Elec...del-2202LEDNR30-LF3-8-doitbest-sku-500453.dib

I have purchased enough incandescents, to give the
LED engineers, one more try to get this right. I
know they can do it, based on the bulb with the
six Nichias in it. So it is possible for the color
to be the right mix between neutral white and warm white.
The remote phosphor ones don't even rate a "warm white"
rating, as they're *yellow*. They are bright though.
Just, annoying color. Maybe in a year's time, someone
can award Philips an award for getting the color right.

I don't mind "cool white" lighting (4500K), as that's what my
kitchen is using right now. I built that light, myself,
from LEDs and my own power source I just won't be
lighting the kitchen with yellow bulbs. Efficient or not.
I've had three CFLs fail in the kitchen. The stink from
the third failure, could be smelled in the kitchen for
an entire week. Needless to say, there won't be
any more CFLs in the kitchen. So now I'm on a
home-made LED light. Which runs off a wall adapter.
The wall adapter runs cool.

If you want to make your own lamp, for a base I recommend
a copper "pipe cap". Go to the plumbing store, and find
the biggest copper end cap you can find. Mine might have
been intended for a 1.5" pipe. That makes a nice heatsink
base for your LED. I drilled and tapped that, so a hex shaped
LED could be bolted to the copper. The copper gives you
more options for heat sinking, depending on how much power
the LED uses.

(Example of the concept - smaller copper caps)

http://bikeled.org/copperhead/Copperhead.html

Doing the wiring in here, is a bitch, because my
LED was a quad with individual wiring. I had eight
contacts to wire up, and stuff the wires, without
breaking, into the housing. I think the LEDs in this
example, only had two contacts to wire.

http://bikeled.org/copperhead/IMG_3121s.jpg

My LED type - eight contacts to wire.

http://media.digikey.com/Photos/Digi-Key Photos/MCE4WT-A2-0000-00KE4-STAR-P.jpg

Wishing those LED engineers luck,

Paul

 

[Paul]

I don't know how a diagnostic can tell whether the RTC (Real Time
Clock, run from the power supply) has failed or if the ATC (Absolute
Time Clock, powered by the CMOS battery or the +5Vstandby rail) has
failed when they're checked against one another. I've twice seen
the ATC's 32 KHz quartz crystal go nuts and make the clock inaccurate
by minutes a day or even run at twice the normal rate. The solution
was to disconnect all power to the quartz crystal -- unplug the AC,
remove the battery, and either wait for hours or short the two
terminals of the EMPTY battery holder for a few seconds. Just
unplugging the AC and moving the CMOS jumper isn't enough. Also
don't rule out a weak battery, even if it reads OK with a meter,
because some CMOS clocks require higher voltage than others and
will be flaky unless the battery puts out more than 3.0V.

It may help to run with only 1-2 memory modules because a lot
of motherboards don't like 4 modules at once, except maybe if
underclocked, especially low quality memory like that Corsair,
which is made from chips that are either overclocked or chip
factory rejects. XbitLabs.com and APHnetworks.com have done
reviews where they removed the heatsinks and revealed this.
Generally 1333 MHz and slower modules will have no-name factory
reject chips, while faster modules use 1333 MHz chips, even
those rated by the module makers for twice that speed. Lots
of marginal memory will pass diagnostics, but generally if you
test with both MemTest86/86+ AND Gold Memory for a few days,
the defects will come out.

There are only two time pieces involved here.

The RTC is a 32KHz digital watch, inside the Southbridge.
It connects, via transmission gates, to the rest of the
silicon. That allows the CMOS well to be powered by
3VSB, without phantom power flowing through the
transmission gates, and attempting to power up
the rest of the Southbridge. That's how the RTC
only draws 10 microamps from the CMOS coin cell
(or from 3VSB).

The software clock maintained by the operating system,
is what the OS relies on for time-keeping, and it
works off a regularly delivered high-priority clock tick
interrupt. The clock-tick interrupt, in turn, is tied
into one of the system timers, and that's traceable to
a different crystal than the RTC.

Those are the two methods of telling time. The RTC
or Real Time Clock, is for keeping time when the
system sleeps or is powered off.

Paul

 

[philo]

If you're in the US, better go back to the store to stock up on the
cheap old incandescent light bulbs (if that's what you meant by "bare
bulb"). Production of them will or has ceased so what you can get is
what is left in stock.

http://www.money.cnn.com/2013/12/13/news/economy/light-bulb-ban/index.html

Yep, you get to pay more on initial cost for high-efficienty
incandescents, CFLs, and LEDs to give the utilities more time before
they even start to mend their failing grids while still upping your
rates (but not as much as if they started mending now).

Most of the lighting in my house is not critical but in my wife's
studio, in addition to the full spectrum fluorescents are three
spotlights where she absolutely must use those GE 100 watt "Reveal"
incandescents. I went out and bought at least a 15 year supply of them
yesterday and would imagine a decent and affordable LED should then be
available by then.


I also have a few antique chandeliers where I use reproduction "vintage"
bulbs and since they are a specialty item expect they may still be avail
in the future...but I have some spares anyway.

 

[philo]

I don't have a problem with them outlawing an inefficient bulb.

I do have a problem with what they're replacing them with.

Of the available types for 2014:

1) Halogen
2) CFL
3) LED

only the first is perfectly compatible with fixturing.

The other two types, could overheat if surrounded by
a globe. Our old kitchen light back home, has a
heavy glass globe around it, with frosting in areas,
to diffuse the light. Once (2) or (3) are placed
inside, the power converter in the base of the
bulb will be subject to high temperature.
While the basic light emitting tech of the bulb might
be rated for 10,000 or 25,000, the base can have an
electrolytic capacitor in it, which will be "cooked"
by the heat. The base might fail after 2000 hours,
spoiling the economics. Only the power company wins,
not me. I win a prize, of having to buy another crap bulb.

Only the halogen is compatible with existing fixtures.
The one halogen product I had here, had all sorts
of absurd safety warnings about explosion risk, being
showered with debris and so on. Presumably, to cover
what happens if the glass envelope (protective second
outer layer), is scored or scratched, and could then
crack. If a halogen failed, depending on the halogen
inside the gas filled part, the gas itself probably
isn't that "tasty".

Just about every product now, "stinks" when it fails.
A halogen (that doesn't break), should be OK and odor free.
The halogen just isn't that efficient (43W for 60W equivalent).

On the LEDs, there are two types. Bulbs made with a
phosphor coating right on the LED die. And the newer
concept which is remote phosphor (remote phosphor illuminated
by blue LEDs, with a couple red LEDs thrown in to make it
"warm" in color). I bought one sample of a remote phosphor,
says on the box "this bulb is *not* yellow". Took it home,
plugged it in, did some simple color testing,
and... it's yellow Hilarious. I love marketing.
I wish I lived in England and they tried that crap
("fit for use").

I've seen precisely one LED bulb, for which the color
was "bang on". A perfect substitute for incandescent.
In that, the color wasn't absurdly off. Only problem
with the bulb, is it weighed around a pound, and ran hot.
15W to make 60W versus the 10W-12W the new remote phosphor
ones use. There were reports of early failures
for that 15W bulb. And like all great products, it's no
longer for sale, replaced by another generation of
losers. The form factor of that one, it's shaped
like a flood light, a big bulb. 2202LEDNR30-LF3-8FR

(Pretty close to what I got - my base was white I think.
Only the color of the light is good, and what I compare
the crap ones to.)

http://www.robertshardware.com/Elec...del-2202LEDNR30-LF3-8-doitbest-sku-500453.dib


I have purchased enough incandescents, to give the
LED engineers, one more try to get this right. I
know they can do it, based on the bulb with the
six Nichias in it. So it is possible for the color
to be the right mix between neutral white and warm white.
The remote phosphor ones don't even rate a "warm white"
rating, as they're *yellow*. They are bright though.
Just, annoying color. Maybe in a year's time, someone
can award Philips an award for getting the color right.

I don't mind "cool white" lighting (4500K), as that's what my
kitchen is using right now. I built that light, myself,
from LEDs and my own power source I just won't be
lighting the kitchen with yellow bulbs. Efficient or not.
I've had three CFLs fail in the kitchen. The stink from
the third failure, could be smelled in the kitchen for
an entire week. Needless to say, there won't be
any more CFLs in the kitchen. So now I'm on a
home-made LED light. Which runs off a wall adapter.
The wall adapter runs cool.

If you want to make your own lamp, for a base I recommend
a copper "pipe cap". Go to the plumbing store, and find
the biggest copper end cap you can find. Mine might have
been intended for a 1.5" pipe. That makes a nice heatsink
base for your LED. I drilled and tapped that, so a hex shaped
LED could be bolted to the copper. The copper gives you
more options for heat sinking, depending on how much power
the LED uses.

(Example of the concept - smaller copper caps)

http://bikeled.org/copperhead/Copperhead.html

Doing the wiring in here, is a bitch, because my
LED was a quad with individual wiring. I had eight
contacts to wire up, and stuff the wires, without
breaking, into the housing. I think the LEDs in this
example, only had two contacts to wire.

http://bikeled.org/copperhead/IMG_3121s.jpg

My LED type - eight contacts to wire.

http://media.digikey.com/Photos/Digi-Key Photos/MCE4WT-A2-0000-00KE4-STAR-P.jpg


Wishing those LED engineers luck,

Paul

Yep...as I've said. We can hold a powerful computer in our hands but
lightbulb technology is still horrible.

 

[DevilsPGD]

May i ask what OS you are using? And what happens say if you change the OS.

Windows 8.1 Pro x64. But I think it's irrelevant since the part that
worries me is the hang in the BIOS, which is pre-OS.

 

[Darklight]

Windows 8.1 Pro x64. But I think it's irrelevant since the part that
worries me is the hang in the BIOS, which is pre-OS.

When i had My M5A99x-evo NOt a rev2 it took a long time to boot this was
because of the checks that the motherboard was doing. It might be the same
problem. With my next MB a M5A99FX-pro rev2 this problem was eliminated.

I just took a look at some reviews and the problem you described was
evident. So if I was you send the thing back and get a replacement.
This is the only way you will find out if it is a faulty MB.

 

[Darklight]

When i had My M5A99x-evo NOt a rev2 it took a long time to boot this was
because of the checks that the motherboard was doing. It might be the same
problem. With my next MB a M5A99FX-pro rev2 this problem was eliminated.

I just took a look at some reviews and the problem you described was
evident. So if I was you send the thing back and get a replacement.
This is the only way you will find out if it is a faulty MB.

Here are some reviews; Should help you decide what to do

http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B00CXL56PI/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B00E5YZXCC/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1