R
Rob R. Ainscough
Sorry to hear about the job cuts and Oracle now out sourcing to India.
Rob.
Rob.
K
Kevin Spencer
Sorry to hear about the job cuts and Oracle now out sourcing to India.
Always sorry to hear that some company has voted for "the cheapest possible
tech help," regardless of what country the help lives in. Anyone that can do
the job as well as someone in this country with a given salary will almost
always command the given salary. And cheap tech help is only cheap in the
short run. It is very expensive in the long run.
Sounds like Oracle is circling the drain.
--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
We got a sick zebra a hat,
you ultimate tuna.
Always sorry to hear that some company has voted for "the cheapest possible
tech help," regardless of what country the help lives in. Anyone that can do
the job as well as someone in this country with a given salary will almost
always command the given salary. And cheap tech help is only cheap in the
short run. It is very expensive in the long run.
Sounds like Oracle is circling the drain.
--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
We got a sick zebra a hat,
you ultimate tuna.
P
pvdg42
Or, Larry needs a new mega-yachtKevin Spencer said:
F
Frans Bouma [C# MVP]
Rob said:
Yeah, well... first of all, it's always a sad thing when someone loses
his/her job.
That said, from a business point of view it makes perfectly sense:
move PART of your development to another timezone so you can have 24/7
development cycles. Don't underestimate this: the guys in india start
with what the guys in the US did in the previous day. Ok, this is in
theory, but you could do more in a day.
I also would like to add that a lot of the MS software is also written
abroad.
For an international company it doesn't make sense to let a lot of the
code be written by a team of software engineers in country A if you can
get it done by a team of software engineers in country B for half the
price.
FB
--
C
Cor Ligthert [MVP]
They are late, it was the start of the success from Baan.Rob R. Ainscough said:
Cor
K
Kevin Spencer
For an international company it doesn't make sense to let a lot of the
Again, that may be true for labor, but for technicians, well, let me put it
this way: If I lived in India, and I could make twice as much money with my
skill level in the U.S., I would come to the U.S. and get a job here. If I
lived in India, and I could make twice as much money with my skill level in
India, I would stay in India, and make that amount of money. In other words,
it is almost always skill level that determines the amount of money that a
technician (such as a developer) makes, not country of origin. Therefore,
any company that outsources to another country to find cheaper technical
help is going to get poorer quality technical help. That will save money in
the short run, but cost more money in the long run due to buggy software,
poorly-designed software, maintenance time, support time, etc. The biggest
cost factor in the software business is not development; it's support.
I wear Rockport shoes. They cost twice as much as other shoes, but last 4
times as long. Do the math.
I buy Lithium batteries. They cost twice as much as Alkaline batteries, but
last 7 times as long. Do the math.
There is no such thing as a free lunch. You get what you pay for.
--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
We got a sick zebra a hat,
you ultimate tuna.
Again, that may be true for labor, but for technicians, well, let me put it
this way: If I lived in India, and I could make twice as much money with my
skill level in the U.S., I would come to the U.S. and get a job here. If I
lived in India, and I could make twice as much money with my skill level in
India, I would stay in India, and make that amount of money. In other words,
it is almost always skill level that determines the amount of money that a
technician (such as a developer) makes, not country of origin. Therefore,
any company that outsources to another country to find cheaper technical
help is going to get poorer quality technical help. That will save money in
the short run, but cost more money in the long run due to buggy software,
poorly-designed software, maintenance time, support time, etc. The biggest
cost factor in the software business is not development; it's support.
I wear Rockport shoes. They cost twice as much as other shoes, but last 4
times as long. Do the math.
I buy Lithium batteries. They cost twice as much as Alkaline batteries, but
last 7 times as long. Do the math.
There is no such thing as a free lunch. You get what you pay for.
--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
We got a sick zebra a hat,
you ultimate tuna.
F
Frans Bouma [C# MVP]
Kevin said:
no, that's a myth. Lots of people from India went to the US years ago,
but go back now. In the 'west', people often think that only in the
'west' universities deliver proper technicians. Not so. Remember, in
India there live near 1 billion people, and they have a lot of
universities, which every year deliver highly trained people. You
really think these people are educated beyond 'community college' level
? If you do, think again.
only if your assumption that everyone with proper skills leaves the
country to the US. Which isn't the case anymore.
Well, I own an ISV and I think you're wrong. I don't outsource to
india, but I can tell you that money spend on development of our
product is way higher than we spend on support personell, and we don't
sacrifice on support at all (ask around, we deliver top notch quality).
You forget that software development is often a long-term process,
with multiple people involved for a long time. This takes serious
money. Supporting it afterwards is only more expensive if you need more
support engineers for a longer period of time than the development
took, which I don't think is true.
What particular saddens me is the prejudice in your post. As if there
aren't any good software engineers outside the 'west'. I have the
strong believe that this same prejudice is the nail on the coffin of
modern societies as we know it. Here in the netherlands the government
is strongly focussed on transforming our economy into a 'knowledge
economy'. However they forget that our society simply can't keep up
with teh amount of highly educated people coming from universities in
for example eastern europe or the ukraine, left alone the vast numbers
of people coming from the universities in india and china.
Now, we here in the 'west' can pretend these people are just not on
'our' level of education and can only do what we think is work for the
uneducated, but I can assure you, unless we work together with these
raising economies, we here in the west will play second fiddle.
Be aware, I don't say they're all good, but that also applies to a LOT
of the software engineers here in the west. We have customers in over
50 countries and therefore receive support calls from those countries
as well, and I can't see a pattern of which you can conclude the people
in the 'west' are higher skilled than the people 'outside the west'.
That has nothing to do with software engineers. You forget that once
you've designed a piece of software (part of a software program for
example), the most time is spend on typing it in! Transforming spec to
code. Make no mistake, every large company who sells software on this
planet uses production plants in india, also Microsoft.
You also drive an american car? If so, does it last longer than for
example a japanese car? If you say 'yes', look up the reliability
charts of a brand like toyota vs. 'american cars'.
But as with all examples, they only proof that the example is correct,
not the hypothese.
what does this have to do with the statement at hand? I use korean
based hardware, because I know it's top notch quality. Does that proof
I'm right and you're wrong? No.
I wasn't talking about the free lunch, I was talking about the large
part of the labour which is simply boring and repetitive work, and
which can also be done by evenly skilled people elsewhere for a lower
price tag. For example, a lot of the 3D design work today is done in
Shanghai and other large chinese cities. Sounds odd? no not at all. The
educational level is high, the number of people who can do the job is
high, so why not use that workforce?
For a multinational like Oracle and Microsoft, it's the same if the
bulk work is done in Bangalore or in the US.
You know what's still the same in both situations? The team who
designs the specs, keeps track of what's going on. In fact, the people
who actualy DO the work are outside that team. They're sort of 'human
code generators'. The important thing is that the meta-data, the specs,
have to be correct, otherwise the code you get is wrong. But is that
different from having the programmers in the US? I don't think so,
especially in large teams.
So the 'west' should invest time in keeping that position and not by
denying they HAVE TO spend time to keeping that position. One way to do
that is by making a lot of typing during the code writing process a
thing of the past. IMHO more effective than simply deny they're up to
par, because that's the most silliest thing 'we' can do here. But you
can keep up the state of denial of course. Just don't be surprised some
guy in bangalore outperforms you in the next 5 years because his skill
level is up to par with yours but he's simply more motivated and
doesn't ask the pricetag you do.
FB
--
C
Cor Ligthert [MVP]
Frans,
Although I agree almost complete what you write, is there an other aspect.
What I will show with a real Dutch product. (Not that it is for our market a
important product however for ourselves it is very much Dutch.) The bicycle.
You forgot to mention one of the most important countries in computer
hardware Taiwan.
One of their starting products was as far as I know bicycles. Americans and
Dutch have sent their bicycles to copy them and produce them in Taiwan. Now
they are making much better bicycles as those they got to copy and are one
of the leaders in the inventions around the bicycle.
The counterpart is that it forced at least the Dutch to make as well better
bicycles. Ko Gaastra, from the neighbourhood where you are born. was one of
those who succeeded in that. Most Dutch were at the start thinking that KoGa
Miyatea was from Japan, however that was just a marketing thing, it is/was
made by hand in Friesland. I assume that you know the quality of that
product and the ones which are look alikes now from that in Holland (sorry
Friesland).
By the way, Taiwan is now very much outsourcing to China.
Cor
Although I agree almost complete what you write, is there an other aspect.
What I will show with a real Dutch product. (Not that it is for our market a
important product however for ourselves it is very much Dutch.) The bicycle.
You forgot to mention one of the most important countries in computer
hardware Taiwan.
One of their starting products was as far as I know bicycles. Americans and
Dutch have sent their bicycles to copy them and produce them in Taiwan. Now
they are making much better bicycles as those they got to copy and are one
of the leaders in the inventions around the bicycle.
The counterpart is that it forced at least the Dutch to make as well better
bicycles. Ko Gaastra, from the neighbourhood where you are born. was one of
those who succeeded in that. Most Dutch were at the start thinking that KoGa
Miyatea was from Japan, however that was just a marketing thing, it is/was
made by hand in Friesland. I assume that you know the quality of that
product and the ones which are look alikes now from that in Holland (sorry
Friesland).
By the way, Taiwan is now very much outsourcing to China.
Cor
C
Christopher Reed
I have to disagree with the money approach because cost of living is
different around the world. Even in the US, it's cheaper to live in Texas
than in California. Likewise, overall, it's cheaper to live in India than
in the US. So, even though US companies are spending less from work in
India, the workers there may be making more "real" money than their
counterparts in the US.
I also agree with Frans regarding the quality of work. Regardless of where
you're at, you'll have good programmers and bad programmers. When
offshoring started, companies only looked at the bottom line when they made
their decisions. In quite a few cases, these decisions were wrong. Now,
however, I believe companies (regardless of location) are smarter in their
decision making processes when outsourcing and offshoring. Nowadays, a
software company in New York City may strongly consider outsourcing to a
company in Valdosta, GA as much as Bangalore, India. It's all economy of
scale where value has to be placed on the quality of the work done. If you
can get in better for the best price in India, then go for it.
Welcome to the world economy. Embrace it or fade away.....
different around the world. Even in the US, it's cheaper to live in Texas
than in California. Likewise, overall, it's cheaper to live in India than
in the US. So, even though US companies are spending less from work in
India, the workers there may be making more "real" money than their
counterparts in the US.
I also agree with Frans regarding the quality of work. Regardless of where
you're at, you'll have good programmers and bad programmers. When
offshoring started, companies only looked at the bottom line when they made
their decisions. In quite a few cases, these decisions were wrong. Now,
however, I believe companies (regardless of location) are smarter in their
decision making processes when outsourcing and offshoring. Nowadays, a
software company in New York City may strongly consider outsourcing to a
company in Valdosta, GA as much as Bangalore, India. It's all economy of
scale where value has to be placed on the quality of the work done. If you
can get in better for the best price in India, then go for it.
Welcome to the world economy. Embrace it or fade away.....
K
Kevin Spencer
*Sigh* inline:
First of all, my first and second statements were to be taken as a single
idea. The idea is that one makes as much money as one is capable of. A
programmer is a problem solver. I can't imagine that people in India aren't
interested in making more money. Therefore, it is logical to assume that if
a person is capable of making more money, and that person is a programmer,
that person will find a way to make more money, whether it is by moving to
the U.S. (or some other country with high wages), or, if higher-paying jobs
are available in India, will take a higher-paying job in India.
Second, my reference to India was not a statement about India, or people
from India. It was (obviously) meant as an example of a country where most
people (nearly 1 billion by your account) are poor. Note the lack of any
characterization of the country, nor the people. All characterization
attributed by you came from your own imagination.
Third, who said anything at all about "the west" (other than you)? I used
the U.S. as an example, because it is one of the richest countries in the
world, and I am from the U.S. Therefore I know more about it than I do other
countries. I could have looked up the exact richest country in the world,
but that was not germain to my argument. Again, you make assumptions
regarding what I said, although I said nothing of the sort. And you are a C#
developer? I hope you don't program with that logic!
Did you read what I said? I said "If I lived in India, and I could make
twice as much money with my skill level in India, I would stay in India, and
make that amount of money." Now where did that statement say anything about
leaving India "to the US?" Again, you missed my point, which I could have
sworn I explained thoroughly. It sounds to me like *you* are the one making
assumptions here.
Heck, Frans, there are quite a few people from India working for Microsoft,
and most of them live in Redmond or thereabouts. I've worked with some
highly intelligent and qualified people from India in my time. I didn't go
to India to meet them, though. I'm sure there are some people there who are
very qualified. I'm equally sure they don't do grunt work for Oracle, and
get paid pennies to do it.
Well, there's a statistic for you. Of course, I couldn't help but notice
that you company has produced only a couple of pieces of software since
1997. Interestingly, I took a look at Microsoft's publicly-available
financial statement for 2006 (Second financial Quarter). Out of their total
operating costs (about 7.2 billion dollars), only 2.2 billion was used for
actual product development.
There you go with that "west" thing again. Dude, I'm talking about
economics, not politics or culture. And I'm not talking about any country's
"level of education." Heck, I have no idea what any country's "level of
education" is. But I do know there's no such thing as a free lunch.
WTFO?! I can see a pattern here, but it's in *your* attitude, not mine.
Sure, there are plenty of poor programmers all over. And guess what? Most of
them get paid what they earn. Unfortunately, a lot of them get paid *more*
than they deserve. Particularly here in the "west." But not the really good
ones. They make a heck of a lot more. In a wealthy economy, everyone
benefits from the overall wealth. That's just a fact of life. More money to
go around, I suppose.
I'm talking about value, man, not shoes!
Now, there's something to that point. But there is a certain minimal (and by
that, I don't mean "small") amount of skill needed there as well. If the
designer did everything but dot the i's and cross the t's, you might be
right. But I've had some pretty darned ignorant people working under me, and
I spent a heck of a lot of time (for which I am paid what I deserve)
cleaning up after them.
So, once we get all that "west" garbage out of the way, we can disagree
about the question of whether it's cheaper in the long run to outsource to a
3rd-world country and pay a heck of a lot less for what still amounts to
technically-skilled labor. Time will tell. I know how I'm going to bet.
--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
We got a sick zebra a hat,
you ultimate tuna.
First of all, my first and second statements were to be taken as a single
idea. The idea is that one makes as much money as one is capable of. A
programmer is a problem solver. I can't imagine that people in India aren't
interested in making more money. Therefore, it is logical to assume that if
a person is capable of making more money, and that person is a programmer,
that person will find a way to make more money, whether it is by moving to
the U.S. (or some other country with high wages), or, if higher-paying jobs
are available in India, will take a higher-paying job in India.
Second, my reference to India was not a statement about India, or people
from India. It was (obviously) meant as an example of a country where most
people (nearly 1 billion by your account) are poor. Note the lack of any
characterization of the country, nor the people. All characterization
attributed by you came from your own imagination.
Third, who said anything at all about "the west" (other than you)? I used
the U.S. as an example, because it is one of the richest countries in the
world, and I am from the U.S. Therefore I know more about it than I do other
countries. I could have looked up the exact richest country in the world,
but that was not germain to my argument. Again, you make assumptions
regarding what I said, although I said nothing of the sort. And you are a C#
developer? I hope you don't program with that logic!
Did you read what I said? I said "If I lived in India, and I could make
twice as much money with my skill level in India, I would stay in India, and
make that amount of money." Now where did that statement say anything about
leaving India "to the US?" Again, you missed my point, which I could have
sworn I explained thoroughly. It sounds to me like *you* are the one making
assumptions here.
Heck, Frans, there are quite a few people from India working for Microsoft,
and most of them live in Redmond or thereabouts. I've worked with some
highly intelligent and qualified people from India in my time. I didn't go
to India to meet them, though. I'm sure there are some people there who are
very qualified. I'm equally sure they don't do grunt work for Oracle, and
get paid pennies to do it.
Well, there's a statistic for you. Of course, I couldn't help but notice
that you company has produced only a couple of pieces of software since
1997. Interestingly, I took a look at Microsoft's publicly-available
financial statement for 2006 (Second financial Quarter). Out of their total
operating costs (about 7.2 billion dollars), only 2.2 billion was used for
actual product development.
There you go with that "west" thing again. Dude, I'm talking about
economics, not politics or culture. And I'm not talking about any country's
"level of education." Heck, I have no idea what any country's "level of
education" is. But I do know there's no such thing as a free lunch.
WTFO?! I can see a pattern here, but it's in *your* attitude, not mine.
Sure, there are plenty of poor programmers all over. And guess what? Most of
them get paid what they earn. Unfortunately, a lot of them get paid *more*
than they deserve. Particularly here in the "west." But not the really good
ones. They make a heck of a lot more. In a wealthy economy, everyone
benefits from the overall wealth. That's just a fact of life. More money to
go around, I suppose.
I'm talking about value, man, not shoes!
Now, there's something to that point. But there is a certain minimal (and by
that, I don't mean "small") amount of skill needed there as well. If the
designer did everything but dot the i's and cross the t's, you might be
right. But I've had some pretty darned ignorant people working under me, and
I spent a heck of a lot of time (for which I am paid what I deserve)
cleaning up after them.
So, once we get all that "west" garbage out of the way, we can disagree
about the question of whether it's cheaper in the long run to outsource to a
3rd-world country and pay a heck of a lot less for what still amounts to
technically-skilled labor. Time will tell. I know how I'm going to bet.
--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
We got a sick zebra a hat,
you ultimate tuna.
K
Kevin Spencer
Yes, the cost of living is different around the world. But again, if I could
compete with the talent and make twice the money I do working in the UK, I'd
move there. Otherwise, I'd find a job here where I could make that kind of
money. It's pretty simple economics.
Yes, there are plenty of poor programmers right here in the USA. And there
are companies that hire them, looking for a bargain. And those companies
usually fail.
Neither a follower nor a lender be. Think for yourself. Just because
something is popular doesn't make it a good idea. Don't forget how popular
Adolf Hitler was before 1939...
Yes, there is a world economy. And it's the same all over. Economics is not
that complicated. It's all about math, it's all about supply and demand, and
it's all about competition. You either compete, or you get the s**t kicked
out of you. You compete, not by being cheaper than the next guy, but by
being wiser than the next guy. Take a look at General Motors, here in the
U.S. They slept while Japan competed. Now, they're going under. Fortunately,
Japanese car companies have plenty of factories here to handle the people
who have been laid off by GM. If you follow the crowd, be sure they're not a
bunch of Lemmings.
--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
We got a sick zebra a hat,
you ultimate tuna.
compete with the talent and make twice the money I do working in the UK, I'd
move there. Otherwise, I'd find a job here where I could make that kind of
money. It's pretty simple economics.
Yes, there are plenty of poor programmers right here in the USA. And there
are companies that hire them, looking for a bargain. And those companies
usually fail.
Neither a follower nor a lender be. Think for yourself. Just because
something is popular doesn't make it a good idea. Don't forget how popular
Adolf Hitler was before 1939...
Yes, there is a world economy. And it's the same all over. Economics is not
that complicated. It's all about math, it's all about supply and demand, and
it's all about competition. You either compete, or you get the s**t kicked
out of you. You compete, not by being cheaper than the next guy, but by
being wiser than the next guy. Take a look at General Motors, here in the
U.S. They slept while Japan competed. Now, they're going under. Fortunately,
Japanese car companies have plenty of factories here to handle the people
who have been laid off by GM. If you follow the crowd, be sure they're not a
bunch of Lemmings.
--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
We got a sick zebra a hat,
you ultimate tuna.
C
Christopher Reed
Kevin Spencer said:
I think you miss my point about cost of living. For example, I can have a
job in Texas that pays $50,000 a year or I can have a job in New York that
pays $100,000 a year. Which is the better paying job? To answer the
question, you have to look at cost of living. Say that cost of living is
2.5 times that in New York compared to Texas. So, my $50,000 in Texas is
equivalent to $125,000 in New York. So, Texas actually looks like a better
paying job. Granted, there are other factors, but overall, economy of scale
as associated with cost of living is still important to consider.
I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm only saying that we cannot be ignorant of
how one country fits into the world economy as compared to another. If it's
cheaper to build it Japan, then so be it. The US manufacturers will either
adapt or fail. That's my point, which doesn't seem to be too far from your
own.
By the way, that's neither a BORROWER nor a lender be. Frankly, I have no
opinion regarding the world economy except that it exists and won't be going
away any time soon.
C
Cor Ligthert [MVP]
Kevin,
Exactly the wrong text on the wrong place, assuming that you write it to
show that what you tell is right.
The economy in Germany was before 1939 real top looking at the rest of
Europe. The people who were called real Germans had a very good life as they
never had before, but the good jobs were only for them. That is exactly the
idealogie of Hitler, it is alone focused on the own nation and the
superiority of that (and what they thought were the original inhabitants,
although Germany is as most European countries historical a mixing pot of
all kind of cultures).
Cor
Exactly the wrong text on the wrong place, assuming that you write it to
show that what you tell is right.
The economy in Germany was before 1939 real top looking at the rest of
Europe. The people who were called real Germans had a very good life as they
never had before, but the good jobs were only for them. That is exactly the
idealogie of Hitler, it is alone focused on the own nation and the
superiority of that (and what they thought were the original inhabitants,
although Germany is as most European countries historical a mixing pot of
all kind of cultures).
Cor
F
Frans Bouma [C# MVP]
Cor said:
True
For years I thought they were made in Japan. But I think thatfocussing on hand-made quality products isn't the point. The point is
that the bulk work, the work the majority of the people will
participate in, that work is doable everywhere, you just have to
instruct the workers well enough. Also in our business.
FB
--
C
Cor Ligthert [MVP]
True
focussing on hand-made quality products isn't the point. The point is
that the bulk work, the work the majority of the people will
participate in, that work is doable everywhere, you just have to
instruct the workers well enough. Also in our business.
This is as well true, however let me give you an other example. When I was
much younger than you are now, I was in the IBM typewriter and related
printer factory in Holland. They had examined to let those things be
manufactured with robots. Proofs had told that humans could do it still
better, so they stayed by doing that by humans. If it would have been then
cheaper by robots, than they would have done that. This kind of human work
is of course easy to export.
You see in my idea the oposite in the Japan car factories in the USA and
Europe. The total delivery cost will probably be much lower to produce it
their, while the Americans and Europeans have people enough to control those
robots in the same way as when it was done in Japan.
Cor
C
Christopher Reed
I agree with Cor. When I look at the world economy today, I believe that
everyone should reap the benefits for the work they do accordingly. Part of
this approach is to understand that a programmer in India making $5 an hour
may actually be better off than the programmer in New York making $30 an
hour. That doesn't mean that all corporations should send their programming
projects to India because you also have to take it account the quality of
the work performed.
everyone should reap the benefits for the work they do accordingly. Part of
this approach is to understand that a programmer in India making $5 an hour
may actually be better off than the programmer in New York making $30 an
hour. That doesn't mean that all corporations should send their programming
projects to India because you also have to take it account the quality of
the work performed.
K
Kevin Spencer
Hi Chris,
I think you're missing *my* point. Remember, we're talking about a world
economy, right? Now, if I make $100,000 a year in New York, and I've bought
a $500,000 house in New York, and it's gone up in value at the same
percentage rate as a $200,000 house in Texas, when I retire, I can move to
Texas, and I've got twice as much "real" money to live on. Most people from
Third World countries who come to the U.S. do so to help their families.
Why? Because they can send more money back home, where it makes a bigger
difference.
Actually, most Japanese cars sold in the U.S. are built in the U.S. So, it
isn't a matter of "cheaper to build it." It's a matter of "building it
better."
Actually, I meant "Neither a FOLLOWER nor a lender be." It's one of my Uncle
Chutney's sayings. ;-)
--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
We got a sick zebra a hat,
you ultimate tuna.
I think you're missing *my* point. Remember, we're talking about a world
economy, right? Now, if I make $100,000 a year in New York, and I've bought
a $500,000 house in New York, and it's gone up in value at the same
percentage rate as a $200,000 house in Texas, when I retire, I can move to
Texas, and I've got twice as much "real" money to live on. Most people from
Third World countries who come to the U.S. do so to help their families.
Why? Because they can send more money back home, where it makes a bigger
difference.
Actually, most Japanese cars sold in the U.S. are built in the U.S. So, it
isn't a matter of "cheaper to build it." It's a matter of "building it
better."
Actually, I meant "Neither a FOLLOWER nor a lender be." It's one of my Uncle
Chutney's sayings. ;-)
--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
We got a sick zebra a hat,
you ultimate tuna.
K
Kevin Spencer
Exactly the wrong text on the wrong place, assuming that you write it to
Not at all. It was meant to illustrate the point that "Just because
something is popular doesn't make it a good idea." It had nothing to do with
any idea of any nation being superior, or even thinking of itself as being
superior. It was an example of a popular idea that was a very bad idea.
You should spend some time in the U.S. Somebody's been selling you a
political bill of goods about this country. We are no different than anyone
else, in terms of our humanity. We have a powerful military and a powerful
economy, yes, but that doesn't make us any qualitatively or morally "better"
or "different" than anyone else, and as an American, I can tell you that
most of us don't think that it does.
Bill Gates is the richest man in the world. But if he wasn't the richest man
in the world, the second richest man in the world would be the richest man
in the world. And he doesn't think of himself as being any better than
anyone else just because he is the richest man in the world. Why should
Americans, who, like everyone else, live, have children, work, and die,
think that simply because their country is wealthy that they are somehow
better than anyone else?
This world is just people, everywhere you go. They are basically the same
everywhere. Don't let your preconceptions about people impair your ability
to think and understand. I said "Just because something is popular doesn't
make it a good idea." Then I followed it up with an example (which almost
anyone in the world would be familiar with) of something that was popular
and was a very bad idea. That is all I intended to illustrate. If I had
illustrated the point with "In the 1960,s Nehru jackets were popular," half
the people who read the illustration wouldn't have a clue what I was talking
about. And that would be because a lot of people in the world were born
after the 1960s, didn't live in the U.S. back then, and don't even know what
a Nehru jacket *is*.
--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
We got a sick zebra a hat,
you ultimate tuna.
Not at all. It was meant to illustrate the point that "Just because
something is popular doesn't make it a good idea." It had nothing to do with
any idea of any nation being superior, or even thinking of itself as being
superior. It was an example of a popular idea that was a very bad idea.
You should spend some time in the U.S. Somebody's been selling you a
political bill of goods about this country. We are no different than anyone
else, in terms of our humanity. We have a powerful military and a powerful
economy, yes, but that doesn't make us any qualitatively or morally "better"
or "different" than anyone else, and as an American, I can tell you that
most of us don't think that it does.
Bill Gates is the richest man in the world. But if he wasn't the richest man
in the world, the second richest man in the world would be the richest man
in the world. And he doesn't think of himself as being any better than
anyone else just because he is the richest man in the world. Why should
Americans, who, like everyone else, live, have children, work, and die,
think that simply because their country is wealthy that they are somehow
better than anyone else?
This world is just people, everywhere you go. They are basically the same
everywhere. Don't let your preconceptions about people impair your ability
to think and understand. I said "Just because something is popular doesn't
make it a good idea." Then I followed it up with an example (which almost
anyone in the world would be familiar with) of something that was popular
and was a very bad idea. That is all I intended to illustrate. If I had
illustrated the point with "In the 1960,s Nehru jackets were popular," half
the people who read the illustration wouldn't have a clue what I was talking
about. And that would be because a lot of people in the world were born
after the 1960s, didn't live in the U.S. back then, and don't even know what
a Nehru jacket *is*.
--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
We got a sick zebra a hat,
you ultimate tuna.
K
Kevin Spencer
You see in my idea the oposite in the Japan car factories in the USA and
Actually, almost all Japanese cars sold in the U.S. are *manufactured* in
the U.S., by American laborers.
Go figure.
--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
We got a sick zebra a hat,
you ultimate tuna.
Actually, almost all Japanese cars sold in the U.S. are *manufactured* in
the U.S., by American laborers.
Go figure.
--
HTH,
Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
We got a sick zebra a hat,
you ultimate tuna.
G
Guest
hi kevin,
"The biggest cost factor in the software business is not development; it's
support."
You're absolutely right...
I really agree with you.
Thanks.
"The biggest cost factor in the software business is not development; it's
support."
You're absolutely right...
I really agree with you.
Thanks.