Any fellow binary addicts|? :-)

  • Thread starter Thread starter george
  • Start date Start date
It was a massive case of directory corruption on 3 out of 4 HD volumes. The
funny part is, I used Norton DD all this time (I'm a regular NDD user since
1993), and it didn't solve it. I even packed up my G4 and took it to an
authorized Apple Service Tech center a few months ago to find out why OSX
crashes so often, etc. while OS9 works just fine. The couldn't pinpoint the
problem, either. What nailed it? I just bought DiskWarrior.
Click to expand...

It isn't that DW is so good (although it is the best), it's that NDD is so
*bad*. Throw out the problem cause, and... no more problems!
--
Please, no "Go Google this" replies. I wouldn't
ask a question here if I hadn't done that already.

DaveC
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This is an invalid return address
Please reply in the news group
 
More feedback for the original poster...

While DiskWarrior certainly seems to keep OSX running now, it seems
now that my woes weren't only the result of my downloading appetite.

Another issue here seems to be this dual G4's ("Yikes" model)
half-baked support of drives bigger than 137 Gigs. When I got this G4
in 2001, I was able to tack on and format one 200 Gig drive up to 200
Gigs, but another just wouldn't format past 137 Gigs. I would not be
able to format a drive to 200 Gigs on the internal chain, but in an
external FireWire case, I could. Then this mechanism could be put on
the internal chain and it worked, except another 200 Gig drive, housed
in a second external FireWire case would just totally disappear, and
so on... after lengthy experimentation, I got a system with 3 drives,
no more than 400 Gigs total, and an extra 80 Gig drive I could not put
anywhere on the internal chain, or all hell would break loose.

OS9 worked fine for all these years with this 400 Gig setup while OSX
would pass out. Today, the saga continued: I did the same "FireWire
format" trick with a new 400 Gig Seagate, and then put it (alone) on
the internal chain on the place of an 80 Gigger. The new drive would
work only with no jumpers whatsoever - not with a jumper in master,
slave, or cable select position - just plain no jumper, zero, zilch,
nada. After formatting, this drive's Finder window says "376 Gigs
available", while Disk Utility says, it is a 137 Gig drive. So, I
gather, this whole G4 HD rig is still standing on glass legs, really,
and no amount of DiskWarrior can change this, only moderate the
recurring fallout. This is why I was inquiring in my original about a
more robust Net cruiser.
 
[snip]
Another issue here seems to be this dual G4's ("Yikes" model)
half-baked support of drives bigger than 137 Gigs. When I got this G4
in 2001, I was able to tack on and format one 200 Gig drive up to 200
Gigs, but another just wouldn't format past 137 Gigs.
Click to expand...

[snip]
======================

Been through all of that a time or two. I was dismayed at first that
I somehow could not get those big drives formatted for full capacity.
But, then I did the obvious and used the CD which came with each big
drive; finding on the CD the means of full-formatting. We used to
get a floppy in older days .. say, something like Max-Blast. Each
HD mfr has their own.
 
Regarding big drives on the internal IDE ports:

Older IDE/ATA controllers can't handle drives larger than 137G because
the internal 'logical block' registers are only 28 bits wide. Most
ATA-100 and ATA-133 controller cards support 48 bit 'logical block
addressing', which allows them to seek past the 137G limit of the older
controllers. This is a physical constraint of the older systems, and a
drive formatted with on a new controller may appear to be larger than
137G, but the system can't really reach those sectors at the high
addresses.

The 2002 Quicksilver was the first Mac that supported 48 bit LBA in
hardware, even though it only had an ATA-66 controller.

There's a good discussion of this here:
<http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?t=246391>

And I would not bother with any software solution, as Chief Suspect
proposed, they're all written to address software problems in early PC
BIOSes, not useful for this limitation. There are only three ways to
use big IDE/ATA drives on older Macs:

1) Partition and format the drives to the max addressable volume, which
is 137G. This works perfectly, needs no hacks or new hardware, and does
no harm to the drives. You waste some space, but may save money. Two
160G drives will probably be cheaper than a 250G drive and an ultra-133
controller card.

2) Buy an IDE controller card with 48 bit LBA support, and hook the
drives to it. Modern Mac OSes and the Disk Utility will be able to use
the full capacity.

3) Install the drives in external Firewire or USB enclosures which
claim large drive support.

Regarding Disk repair tools:

I'm with Garner, Jef, and Dave on this. While Disk Warrior is a good
tool, I wouldn't let any other commercial disk utility near my OSX
disks. The unix tools underlying 'Disk Utility's repair functions are
rock solid, with decades of refinement.
 
I wrote:

" This is a physical constraint of the older systems, and a
drive formatted with on a new controller may appear to be larger than
137G, but the system can't really reach those sectors at the high
addresses"

I meant:

This is a physical constraint of the older systems, and a drive
formatted with a 48 bit LBA controller, then moved to a 28 bit LBA
controller may appear to be larger than 137G, but the controller can't
really reach those sectors at the high addresses.
 
The unix tools underlying 'Disk Utility's repair functions are
rock solid, with decades of refinement.
Click to expand...

Are you saying "use Disk Utility", or "use the underlying UNIX tools,
individually". If the former, great! If the latter, how does one access the
individual tools?

Thanks,
--
Please, no "Go Google this" replies. I wouldn't
ask a question here if I hadn't done that already.

DaveC
(e-mail address removed)
This is an invalid return address
Please reply in the news group
 
Re: disk utility

In OS X, the Disk utility is just a front end for the command line app
'diskutil' which Apple claims is functionally identical to unix's fsck
command. At boot time, drives which failed to sync and unmount since
they were last mounted are automatically fsck-ed. You may also restart
in single user mode and invoke fsck directly.

The main reason to use fsck directly is that it can be run against the
boot disk (If you booted into single user mode) If you don't have an
install CD or alternate boot device, fsck provides a handy alternative.
 
Hello Taryn,

I already tried solution 1 and 3 (137G partitions and external FW
cases) and, for various reasons, both solved the problem only halfways.
Clearly I should go for solution 2, - do what Apple didn't, put a
quality IDE controller card with 48-bit support into my G4. Would you
care to recommend any particular model?
 
I'm curious to know why solutions 1 and 3 didn't work out for you.

I don't have a preference for any particular brand of IDE controller,
I'd see what smalldog or Other World offers for Macs.
 
"Taryn" said:
I'm curious to know why solutions 1 and 3 didn't work out for you.
Click to expand...

The 137 Gig partitioning didn't work because it clutters my desktop with
drive icons, makes remembering what's where more difficult ("now where I
tossed that photo file in the hurry, between the 15 volumes?..."). At the
current rate of HD file size growth, my desktop would be soon completely
taken over by partition icons. Frankly, I just don't like partitions. They
add a factor of confusion to my way of organizing files into alphabetic
folders on category-named HDs.

The external FireWire cases (mostly) don't work, because whether you buy
them on eBay or at the corner CompUSA, it's the same cheaply made Taiwan
stuff. The first case I ever bought, "crashed." I thought I had a hard
drive crash - but no, the little 80Gig HD whirred up and worked just fine
once out from the case. It was the case itself that went fried! Nothing I
ever put into it would work anymore, I had to toss it out.

The second case didn't fry itself, only the HD inside, because of the weak
fan. The third, plastic FW case prevented this overheating by being so
small, that I couldn't even put the lid back on once I put the mechanism
into it. So now I use these two latter external FW cases now without the
top half cover on - the HD mechanisms (and all the case internals) are
exposed, the air flow cools them naturally, and now the setup sort of works
with only the occassional bad launch - as long as I don't try to add a new
HD. All in all, the cases "sort of" work, the setup cannot easily be
expanded, and it looks butt-ugly too like a science fair project, or
something salvaged from a dumpster. An elegant, reliable final solution
this ain't.

In the meantime I found a good deal on a SIIG controller card, and ordered
it. Stay tuned... I might find a way to cram a Terabyte into this G4 and
make it work under OSX, after all. Or maybe not, if the power supply faints
out next... one of these days I better check its amperage.
 
The 137 Gig partitioning didn't work because it clutters my desktop with
drive icons, makes remembering what's where more difficult ("now where I
tossed that photo file in the hurry, between the 15 volumes?..."). At the
current rate of HD file size growth, my desktop would be soon completely
taken over by partition icons. Frankly, I just don't like partitions. They
add a factor of confusion to my way of organizing files into alphabetic
folders on category-named HDs.
Click to expand...

Since you seem intent on downloading everything in sight,
this is not a "didn't work" scenario, rather it is an
inevitable scenario if you don't change your organization of
the files or your method of access. Plenty of people do
have similar amounts of data and manage (to manage) it.


The external FireWire cases (mostly) don't work, because whether you buy
them on eBay or at the corner CompUSA, it's the same cheaply made Taiwan
stuff. The first case I ever bought, "crashed." I thought I had a hard
drive crash - but no, the little 80Gig HD whirred up and worked just fine
once out from the case. It was the case itself that went fried! Nothing I
ever put into it would work anymore, I had to toss it out.

The second case didn't fry itself, only the HD inside, because of the weak
fan. The third, plastic FW case prevented this overheating by being so
small, that I couldn't even put the lid back on once I put the mechanism
into it. So now I use these two latter external FW cases now without the
top half cover on - the HD mechanisms (and all the case internals) are
exposed, the air flow cools them naturally, and now the setup sort of works
with only the occassional bad launch - as long as I don't try to add a new
HD. All in all, the cases "sort of" work, the setup cannot easily be
expanded, and it looks butt-ugly too like a science fair project, or
something salvaged from a dumpster. An elegant, reliable final solution
this ain't.
Click to expand...

I suggest you look more closely at the products before
purchase, as "cheap" and "Taiwan" are adjectives that also
describe enclosures that do work.

In the meantime I found a good deal on a SIIG controller card, and ordered
it. Stay tuned... I might find a way to cram a Terabyte into this G4 and
make it work under OSX, after all. Or maybe not, if the power supply faints
out next... one of these days I better check its amperage.
Click to expand...

So after a year or two of downloading all this stuff, then
newer versions of this software comes out, will you simply
delete it all at that point and start over or expect to
constantly download and archive everything ever posted until
the end of time? It seems like a colossal waste in addition
to potentially being illegal and against the terms of many
ISPs (or even their affiliated news provider).
 
No binary for me, thanks.
I much prefer hexadecimal.

--
Wes Groleau
"To know what you prefer, instead of humbly saying
Amen to what the world tells you you should prefer,
is to have kept your soul alive."
-- Robert Louis Stevenson
 
kony said:
So after a year or two of downloading all this stuff, then
newer versions of this software comes out, will you simply
delete it all at that point and start over or expect to
constantly download and archive everything ever posted until
the end of time? It seems like a colossal waste in addition
to potentially being illegal and against the terms of many
ISPs (or even their affiliated news provider).
Click to expand...

I don't care much about software; I still prefer to use my
(store-bought) Photoshop 5, Illustrator 6, PageMaker 6.5, etc. to any
newer release.

My interest is gathering information; nonfiction texts, pictures,
sounds, videos... - bits of information to build a better mental model
of our universe from the available one. You may laugh if you wish, but
I'm actually halfways there. I seem to have this weird ability to take
a mind-boggling amount of information and find/create order from it.
Apparently, I'm a lot better at it than my computer :-)
 
I don't care much about software; I still prefer to use my
(store-bought) Photoshop 5, Illustrator 6, PageMaker 6.5, etc. to any
newer release.

My interest is gathering information; nonfiction texts, pictures,
sounds, videos... - bits of information to build a better mental model
of our universe from the available one. You may laugh if you wish, but
I'm actually halfways there. I seem to have this weird ability to take
a mind-boggling amount of information and find/create order from it.
Apparently, I'm a lot better at it than my computer :-)
Click to expand...

Apparently- You should consider traveling abroad rather than
just downloads.
 
The latest update from the original poster:

I got the 48-bit SIIG controller card to run my big drives; I put it in
the G4's PCI slot and it wouldn't do zilch. After a while I even managed
to conk out the G4 with it; the power would come on, but the booting
wouldn't start anymore, even after restoring everything to the original
position. "Great, now I fried the motherboard too." - I thought. "Well,
at least now I can buy a G5 that takes big drives."

So I went to the store and asked to buy a G5 that can accommodate 4
internal HDs. There isn't one. Uggh. So I asked if I can get a Dell with
four internal drives, then. "Dell doesn't have such a model, either" was
the answer.

I guess if I want to get something done well, I'll have to do it myself,
darn it. How about buying one of these 8-bay FW enclosures:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=167&item=520870279
0&rd=1

and plopping a Mac Mini in the top bay? (Then, if I'm going for broke
already, adding a soda fountain on top :)
 
George said:
The latest update from the original poster:

I got the 48-bit SIIG controller card to run my big drives; I put it in
the G4's PCI slot and it wouldn't do zilch. After a while I even managed
to conk out the G4 with it; the power would come on, but the booting
wouldn't start anymore, even after restoring everything to the original
position. "Great, now I fried the motherboard too." - I thought. "Well,
at least now I can buy a G5 that takes big drives."

So I went to the store and asked to buy a G5 that can accommodate 4
internal HDs. There isn't one. Uggh. So I asked if I can get a Dell with
four internal drives, then. "Dell doesn't have such a model, either" was
the answer.

I guess if I want to get something done well, I'll have to do it myself,
darn it. How about buying one of these 8-bay FW enclosures:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=167&item=520870279
0&rd=1

and plopping a Mac Mini in the top bay? (Then, if I'm going for broke
already, adding a soda fountain on top :)
Click to expand...

Before you give up on your G4, try resetting the PMU on the motherboard
near the battery (it is a small button). Press it ONCE (too many presses
leave PMU corrupted and can drain the battery in 1-2 days instead of 3-5
years). Reboot

I had this happen twice in 5 years with my G4s, where they refused to
boot. Once when installing HD in a G4 and one other time after a
thunderstorm (G4 was off but still connected through powersurge
protector strip). Apparently stray static charges or voltage transients
got through to the PMU. Both times my G4s returned to correct
functioning with no problems since.

I have a SIIG ATA IDE controller in my G4 450 and it works fine with 4
drives in it, two on the original bus, and a 200GB Seagate & an old 10GB
Western Digital on the SIIG card. They all work fine. I have heard some
rumor of SIIG not working with Tiger 10.4.1 but mine is still on 10.3.4
and have not tried Tiger on this Mac yet.


G'Day

Hope it works for you.

Morenuf
 
The latest update from the original poster:

I got the 48-bit SIIG controller card to run my big drives; I put it in
the G4's PCI slot and it wouldn't do zilch. After a while I even managed
to conk out the G4 with it; the power would come on, but the booting
wouldn't start anymore, even after restoring everything to the original
position. "Great, now I fried the motherboard too." - I thought. "Well,
at least now I can buy a G5 that takes big drives."

So I went to the store and asked to buy a G5 that can accommodate 4
internal HDs. There isn't one. Uggh. So I asked if I can get a Dell with
four internal drives, then. "Dell doesn't have such a model, either" was
the answer.

I guess if I want to get something done well, I'll have to do it myself,
darn it. How about buying one of these 8-bay FW enclosures:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=167&item=520870279
0&rd=1

and plopping a Mac Mini in the top bay? (Then, if I'm going for broke
already, adding a soda fountain on top :)
Click to expand...

You're making things unnecessarily hard on yourself.
If you continue this obsessive downloading the best solution
is that which is (oddly enough) used quite often- a good ole
fashion fileserver with tons of drive bays.
 
I guess if I want to get something done well, I'll have to do it myself,
darn it. How about buying one of these 8-bay FW enclosures:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=167&item=520870279
0&rd=1

and plopping a Mac Mini in the top bay? (Then, if I'm going for broke
already, adding a soda fountain on top :)
Click to expand...

Well, if your biggest need is the most storage room available, then a
multi-drive firewire enclosure is the way to go. You don't even need a
mac mini.
 
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