AIN'T NO DOS?

[Michael Solomon \(MS-MVP Windows Shell/User\)]

All points well taken.

For the sake of brevity and not wanting to further confuse users to whom I
respond on the subject, I will likely stick to a boiler plate introductory
as follows:

"Though there is a DOS emulator, there is no DOS environment in XP as you
remember it from Windows 9x, hence some of things you are used to doing are
either no longer supported or can't be done..."

After the above intro, I will then endeavor to give them information on how
the task might be accomplished. In my case, the questions to which I
usually respond on this subject usually have to deal with recovery or
recovering files though, sometimes I also respond to questions of why they
are having problems running a particular application.

There is also the case of those who ask before purchasing XP whether or not
their DOS apps will run, a question we really can't answer in advance with
any certainty. I usually tell them, if they have mission critical
applications they must continue to use, they should either maintain their
current machine or dual boot their new system or setup with their current OS
in order to better ensure compatibility.
--
Michael Solomon MS-MVP
Windows Shell/User
Backup is a PC User's Best Friend
DTS-L.Org: http://www.dts-l.org/

Generally speaking the answer "there is no dos" is frequently given to
people trying to run Dos apps. Most dos apps written towards the end of
Dos's lifetime won't run, due to insufficient memory, without configuration.
However they wouldn't have run on a real Dos machine either without
configuration.

There are other configuration issues as well. All would have needed to be
addressed on Dos. XP's Dos, designed to run Line Of Business apps, gives
tons of memory to networking (and other typical corporate requirements).
Home user programs typically didn't use networking but did require the
memory that networking took. The program's manual will nearly always say
what to do to configure the program.

Any Dos program written to the Dos API will work. Nearly all common
departures from the API including direct hardware access will work. With the
addition of a vxd any dos program can access hardware (really access it). MS
provide vxds (built in) for common hardware such as keyboards, mouses,
serial ports, and printer ports. If the program switches to a video mode
that XP doesn't support it makes the program full screen (thus allowing it
direct access to the hardware), if it support it it emulates the hardware.

Except for protected mode memory managers (and some are supported) and
programs using sound cards nearly any non disk utility should work or be
configured to work (which configuration would have been needed in a dos
environment anyway).

I know that some questions are "how do I boot to dos". But many aren't that
get the answer "there is no dos".

 

[Michael Solomon \(MS-MVP Windows Shell/User\)]

That will likely be my boiler plate response to the DOS question in the
future which will intro the rest of the response explaining what they can do
instead of what they thought they could do.

If you are going to reestablish rapport with me, you will have to stop
calling me "Mike" and start calling me Michael!

 

[David Candy]

But astronauts are always called Dave or Mike, never David or Michael.

 

[Michael Solomon \(MS-MVP Windows Shell/User\)]

And David is my middle name!

I'm not sure "moonwalking" qualifies, hence, I am Michael!

--
Michael Solomon MS-MVP
Windows Shell/User
Backup is a PC User's Best Friend
DTS-L.Org: http://www.dts-l.org/

But astronauts are always called Dave or Mike, never David or Michael.

 

[Pop]

I'm sorry, but I have no interest in re-establising a
"rapport" with you, and was/am simply stating fact. If you
like something I say, great, and if you don't, well, them's
the facts of life. I say what I mean and I mean what I say;
it's that simple. I don't know you, likely never will, and
I'm sure you have no wish to know me, so unless something
unusual comes about, we are likely to always be what we are
now; online incidental acquaintances. I respect you for
your contributions to this newsgroup and in general I find
you to be factual and fairly concise in your reponses.
Rapport is the furthest thing from my mind. I cannot, but
if there is every anything I can ever do to help you, I
would, along with many, many other people in these groups.
You may be a fine person, or a real whacko I'd be embarassed
to have as a neighbor: It's unimportant and totally outside
the scope of this particular relationship.

Since I do respect you, I will refrain from calling you
Mike, should the occasion arise again, but only because it
is a sign of respect for your position and your abilities
and nothing more. Personally I find those who insist on
being called "Thomas" or Michael et al slightly pompous, but
I also realize that's usually a family insistance rather
than one of ego-centricity; most of the time at least.

So, with that, I'll say so long, cooly and without fanfare,
and thanks for your contributions.

Pop



"Michael Solomon (MS-MVP Windows Shell/User)"

 

[Pop]

And that's relevant; how? Are you still giving
consideration to suicide attempts? How many have you offed
or helped to off in your lifetime? I sure hope you're ...
oh well ... get help fast.

But astronauts are always called Dave or Mike, never David
or Michael.

 

[Anders Tomilsson]

You forgot TRSDOS for TRS 80 systems....

And the fact it used a cassette recorder as persisted storage.

Or the TI99/4a.

Which you could get paid $0.50 to take it to empty K-Mart's hands.

The price was $49.50 with a $50 rebate.

 

[Mike]

For the purposes of somebody asking if their old DOS based 'Command and
Conquer' will load and run in XP, the answer 'no it won't because there is
essentially no DOS in XP' is a good answer.. there is little point in
explaining the difference between DOS emulation and the various versions of
DOS that were available to a person that wants to know why some of the old
games do not appear to work.. any explanation is just an attempt at being
verbose, and is essentially splitting hairs.. It would be like being asked
why a 'leaded gas pump nozzle' doesn't fit into the receptacle fitted to
'lead free' vehicles, and replying with the whole environmental and
engineering issues involved in the change.. one of the people would probably
die before the explanation was finished, or at the very least would wish
it..

 

[David Candy]

Why is this a good answer. I haven't used C&C but Warcraft runs fine, GP Ver 1 runs, LHX Attack Chopper runs fine, Quake 1 doesn't, Starflight II runs fine, Blood doesn't. So 4/6 of my dos games work.

 

[bxb7668]

I had somebody suggest the other day that they install Microsoft's
Virtual PC and DOS 6.22 and then their DOS game.

Why is this a good answer. I haven't used C&C but Warcraft runs fine,
GP Ver 1 runs, LHX Attack Chopper runs fine, Quake 1 doesn't,
Starflight II runs fine, Blood doesn't. So 4/6 of my dos games work.

 

[Pop]

Sorry byte-breath, but that is incorrect and also not right,
besides being erroneous.
See inline:

"Mike" <[email protected]> had nothing useful to
say and said it in message

For the purposes of somebody asking if their old DOS based 'Command and
Conquer' will load and run in XP, the answer 'no

== If you had actual experience, you would already know
that the answer is "probably, but it does depend on a few
things" blah...

it won't because
== Oh YES, it certainly will in a LOT of instances! MANY
will function just fine.

there is

essentially no DOS in XP' is a good answer..

== It's a meaningless answer and does not respond to the
spirit of the question asked, which is "will my software
work?". Way too many narcissists and ego-centrics wish more
to show their so called intelligence as opposed to actually
doing good for the poster. You appear to be well entrenched
in that group and even have a closed mind to boot.
== Try the "test" I suggested and counter that; try using
some verifiable facts.

there is little point in

explaining the difference between DOS emulation and the various versions of
DOS that were available to a person that wants to know why some of the old
games do not appear to work..

== Correct, UNLESS it is properly couched in understandable
newbie-ese and meant to actually help as opposed to showing
off one's ego, AND if it seems relevant to the poster's well
being. Knowing how selfish and prideful you are is not
relevance.

any explanation is just an attempt at being

verbose,

== One does not "attempt" to be verbose; he either is or he
isn't.

and is essentially splitting hairs..
== Or, in other words, egocentric. Not useful.

It would be like being asked

why a 'leaded gas pump nozzle' doesn't fit into the receptacle fitted to
'lead free' vehicles, and replying with the whole environmental and
engineering issues involved in the change.. one of the people would probably
die before the explanation was finished, or at the very least would wish
it..

== No, that is an incorrect analogy and not fitting. It
suggests a one-way street; you can fit the nozzle one way,
but not vice-versa. That is not analogous.

 

[Pop]

Why is this a good answer. I haven't used C&C but Warcraft
runs fine, GP Ver 1 runs, LHX Attack Chopper runs fine,
Quake 1 doesn't, Starflight II runs fine, Blood doesn't. So
4/6 of my dos games work.
--
----------------------------------------------------------
http://home.comcast.net/~wizardofwhimsy/index.html

For the purposes of somebody asking if their old DOS based 'Command and
Conquer' will load and run in XP, the answer 'no it won't because there is
essentially no DOS in XP' is a good answer.. there is little point in
explaining the difference between DOS emulation and the various versions of
DOS that were available to a person that wants to know why some of the old
games do not appear to work.. any explanation is just an attempt at being
verbose, and is essentially splitting hairs.. It would be like being asked
why a 'leaded gas pump nozzle' doesn't fit into the receptacle fitted to
'lead free' vehicles, and replying with the whole environmental and
engineering issues involved in the change.. one of the people would probably
die before the explanation was finished, or at the very least would wish
it..

What happens when you run Quake 1? My foster kids are
playing it at this moment and it seems to be fine albeit a
little old.

Pop

 

[David Candy]

If it's happy with paths, etc (which it's usually not and nothing happens)

Quake v1.06
Locked 1 Mb image
Locked 11 Mb data
malloc'd: 11837440
Exiting due to signal SIGSEGV
General Protection Fault at eip=000452cb
eax=fd35046c ebx=0011f220 ecx=0000ffff edx=fd350000 esi=00000054 edi=000db354
ebp=0011b34c esp=0011b2a8 cs=01a7 ds=01af es=01af fs=01cf gs=01cf ss=01af
Call frame traceback EIPs:
0x000452cb

I had games using the same Dos Extender, one game works and one doesn't. Some may work in XP and some may only work on 9x. I've never been able to develop a pattern to the memory manager and what happens.

 

[Guest]

Well, I read ALL of the postings under this subject but did not find what I am looking for. Maybe I am in the wrong category (like the wrong number in a telephone menu). It did seem like there were at least a few persons in the LONG list of "submitters" that had a great deal of knowledge (although it looks like the interest has run out).

Here is the problem. I have a friend that has used 4 of his "favorite" DOS programs in his newer Windows XP machine for over a year -- never any problem with any of them (the programs that worked are "First Choice", "Blakbook", an older DOS version of "Quicken" and a fourth one that I can not remember). Now after running for over a year ALL four of the programs cease to respond -- the screen just goes black for a couple of seconds and comes back to the desktop on which he has icons for the 4 programs (along with his other program icons). Apparently, nothing has changed on the NTFS system whatsoever (at least he can not remember any recent changes, additions, or deletions).

I wonder if any of the "experts" who have posted under this question might have any experience or suggestions about the above situation. I chose this "thread" because of the LARGE number of posts (must have attracted a lot of knowledgeable persons).

Thanks for reading. Any help or clue will be greatly appreciated. I really don't care if it is "real" DOS or an "emulator" -- I am just looking for a solution. Something in the system "very basic" must have been changed to cause ALL the programs to just stop working.

=================================================

 

[gls858]

Well, I read ALL of the postings under this subject but did not find what I am looking for. Maybe I am in the wrong category (like the wrong number in a telephone menu). It did seem like there were at least a few persons in the LONG list of "submitters" that had a great deal of knowledge (although it looks like the interest has run out).

Here is the problem. I have a friend that has used 4 of his "favorite" DOS programs in his newer Windows XP machine for over a year -- never any problem with any of them (the programs that worked are "First Choice", "Blakbook", an older DOS version of "Quicken" and a fourth one that I can not remember). Now after running for over a year ALL four of the programs cease to respond -- the screen just goes black for a couple of seconds and comes back to the desktop on which he has icons for the 4 programs (along with his other program icons). Apparently, nothing has changed on the NTFS system whatsoever (at least he can not remember any recent changes, additions, or deletions).

I wonder if any of the "experts" who have posted under this question might have any experience or suggestions about the above situation. I chose this "thread" because of the LARGE number of posts (must have attracted a lot of knowledgeable persons).

Thanks for reading. Any help or clue will be greatly appreciated. I really don't care if it is "real" DOS or an "emulator" -- I am just looking for a solution. Something in the system "very basic" must have been changed to cause ALL the programs to just stop working.

<old comments snipped>

You say nothing has changed on the system in over a year. Does that mean
that no hotfixes were applied? If that's true I would suggest that that
be done immediately. MS has provided many fixes for security problems.
I'm not sure when Service Pack 1 came out but your friend should get
that also if it isn't already applied. If not he will have more problems
that just his DOS programs not loading.

If the fixes and SP1 have been loaded did any coincide with losing the
ability to open these DOS programs?

gls858

 

[Chuck]

For whatever it's worth--
I've run across this problem on a few dos programs, and chased it down to
combinations of video drivers and, of all things, Direct X. It seems that
some direct X settings can cause the video card & driver to go into
never-never land during a resolution change. (This was happening with
various versions of the ATI drivers for the 9200 video chip.)
Total uninstall & reinstall of the video drivers, using the ATI uninstall
utility, and following the instructions for it's use, coupled with trial &
error on the video settings in Direct X was the eventual cure. Other
possible problem areas causing a black screen are also possible. One of the
first things to do is to see if a before and after comparison can be done in
terms of changes to the system. For giggles, I'd see what happens in safe
mode.

Well, I read ALL of the postings under this subject but did not find what

I am looking for. Maybe I am in the wrong category (like the wrong number
in a telephone menu). It did seem like there were at least a few persons in
the LONG list of "submitters" that had a great deal of knowledge (although
it looks like the interest has run out).

Here is the problem. I have a friend that has used 4 of his "favorite"

DOS programs in his newer Windows XP machine for over a year -- never any
problem with any of them (the programs that worked are "First Choice",
"Blakbook", an older DOS version of "Quicken" and a fourth one that I can
not remember). Now after running for over a year ALL four of the programs
cease to respond -- the screen just goes black for a couple of seconds and
comes back to the desktop on which he has icons for the 4 programs (along
with his other program icons). Apparently, nothing has changed on the NTFS
system whatsoever (at least he can not remember any recent changes,
additions, or deletions).

I wonder if any of the "experts" who have posted under this question might

have any experience or suggestions about the above situation. I chose this
"thread" because of the LARGE number of posts (must have attracted a lot of
knowledgeable persons).

Thanks for reading. Any help or clue will be greatly appreciated. I

really don't care if it is "real" DOS or an "emulator" -- I am just looking
for a solution. Something in the system "very basic" must have been changed
to cause ALL the programs to just stop working.

 

[Guest]

Thanks for you quick response. I will relay your thoughts to my friend and go from there.

 

[Guest]

Chuck

Thanks for your thoughts. I will relay them to my friend. Of course, "something" had to have happened to get things "off the track". This person does not "notice details" very much, so it is hard to get much more than a "huh!" from him. If your suggestions work I will come back here to report on the results.

Del
======================

For whatever it's worth--
I've run across this problem on a few dos programs, and chased it down to
combinations of video drivers and, of all things, Direct X. It seems that
some direct X settings can cause the video card & driver to go into
never-never land during a resolution change. (This was happening with
various versions of the ATI drivers for the 9200 video chip.)
Total uninstall & reinstall of the video drivers, using the ATI uninstall
utility, and following the instructions for it's use, coupled with trial &
error on the video settings in Direct X was the eventual cure. Other
possible problem areas causing a black screen are also possible. One of the
first things to do is to see if a before and after comparison can be done in
terms of changes to the system. For giggles, I'd see what happens in safe
mode.



I am looking for. etc., etc., ......

remainder removed to keep it short.