AfterMarket Inks Unreliability

[Bob Headrick]

Plus, I have never understood the relativity of ink fade to the
average user. This person doesn't sell prints to anyone and keeps a
digital file the print was made from on his computer. Last time I
checked DIGITAL FILES DON'T FADE!!!! If the print that was made does
fade then JUST PRINT ANOTHER ONE!!!!

Actually digital files do "fade", and generally faster than many prints.
Do you regularly back up your files? To what media? Hard drives fail,
and backup media becomes obsolete. Maybe you have the discipline to
back up regularly and to refresh the backup media as technology
changes - most people do not. Yesterday's DC-600 tapes or even more
modern DDS tapes may no longer be readable simply because the readers
are no longer available. Do you think you will be able to read today's
DVD-R files decades from now? My thirty year old 8" floppies have
"faded", as have the DC-120 and DC-600 tapes.

- Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging

 

[Bob Headrick]

In fairness, Wilhelm's tests are pretty good, overall, and shouldn't
be ignored for the information they do provide [snip]

Having said that, I am quite sure the better quality 3rd party ink
manufacturers can pay for the same tests Epson, HP, Canon and Lexmark
do should they wish to prove the quality of their inks. The 3rd party
ink manufacturers make a minor fortune (not speaking of the
distributors, who sell them under dozens of brand names) so they could
afford this, although it would add to the costs of the product.

I believe there is certainly a reason the 3rd party folks would not want
the testing done - they do not sink the $millions into development of
lightfast inks and papers as it is not a marketing priority for them,
perhaps with the exception of Lyson who does have their products tested
by Wilhelm. A manufacturer is not going to enter a race that they know
they will lose badly.

- Bob Headrick

 

[Michael Johnson, PE]

Actually digital files do "fade", and generally faster than many prints.
Do you regularly back up your files? To what media? Hard drives fail,
and backup media becomes obsolete. Maybe you have the discipline to
back up regularly and to refresh the backup media as technology changes
- most people do not. Yesterday's DC-600 tapes or even more modern DDS
tapes may no longer be readable simply because the readers are no longer
available. Do you think you will be able to read today's DVD-R files
decades from now? My thirty year old 8" floppies have "faded", as have
the DC-120 and DC-600 tapes.

There are several computers in our house (more computers than people)
and hey are all networked together either wirelessly or by cable. Three
of these computers have complete copies of all our digital photographs
and one has a second hard drive that has a duplicate copy of all files.
In addition to this I have them backed up on a stand alone USB hard
drive. About the only way we would loose them is through fire or theft.
As I upgrade computers I transfer the files to the new machines and
therefore to any newer technology that comes along. I used to backup on
CD/DVD but hard drives are cheap, dependable, much faster and now with
the USB boxes are very portable.

What I do for backup isn't hard and within the reach of nearly everyone
with just a little computer savy and it really isn't all that expensive.
I should probably store a copy of the files off-site but then I would
have to do the same for conventional photographs and what I currently do
reduces my risk level enough for me personally. Anyone that doesn't do
a minimum to keep their data safe have no business complaining should
they loose it.

 

[measekite]

In fairness, Wilhelm's tests are pretty good, overall, and shouldn't
be ignored for the information they do provide
[snip]

Having said that, I am quite sure the better quality 3rd party ink
manufacturers can pay for the same tests Epson, HP, Canon and Lexmark
do should they wish to prove the quality of their inks. The 3rd
party ink manufacturers make a minor fortune (not speaking of the
distributors, who sell them under dozens of brand names) so they
could afford this, although it would add to the costs of the product.

I believe there is certainly a reason the 3rd party folks would not
want the testing done - they do not sink the $millions into
development of lightfast inks and papers as it is not a marketing
priority for them, perhaps with the exception of Lyson who does have
their products tested by Wilhelm. A manufacturer is not going to
enter a race that they know they will lose badly.

Wow! Rip Van Winkle woke up. Ain't dat da truth.

 

[zakezuke]

Bob Headrick wrote:
My thirty year old 8" floppies have

"faded", as have the DC-120 and DC-600 tapes.

My DC600A tapes are just fine... except for those I used an older drive
on. I was a dumb ass and swapped out my 60meg drive with a 120meg
drive, without understanding that I could no longer read my 60meg tapes
with it. But recently I dragged out one of my old backups of windows
3.1, and much to my surprise, I could still get it.

My DC-120s, that's another story.

But I would agree the tape world is a whole bunch of no fun, esp the
QIC tapes. Even 4mm and 8mm you have compatability issues between
makes... so while you may stilll have data, a given seagate drive may
not beable to read a exabyte tape.

To me it's all rather accidemic as I pulled all my 4gig tapes and
copied them to DVD, and DVD is going to be around for a while, though I
will have to copy them off in 5 or 10 years, by this time there will
will be cheap better than 120mm optical disc drives on the market.

 

[Nicolaas Hawkins]

[...]
Anyone that doesn't do a minimum to keep their data safe have no
business complaining should they loose it.

If they loose it then it is in need of a jolly good tighting!


--
Die dulci fruere,
Nicolaas.



.... You know it's going to be a bad day when the bird singing outside your
window at daybreak is a buzzard.

 

[frank]

Bob Headrick wrote:
A manufacturer is not going to enter a race that they know

they will lose badly.

- Bob Headrick

Or let’s say an ink manufacturer in the Far East has multiple ink
factories that manufacturer ink to certain specifications given to them
by one of the majors. They're doing 'contract manufacturing'. Their
agreement states that they cannot sell the same ink to anyone else. But
they make more ink than the major called for and are selling it "out the
back door" so to speak.
If tested, both inks would product exactly the same results. The
distributor who buys the inks "out the back door" would never want to
have the ink tested. Nor would the manufacturer.
Now knowing the reputation and their proclivity for bending the rules of
patents, proprietarily and intellectual property in this part of the
world, I believe this behavior is both common and rampant.
Just one real reason why you’ll never see after market inks from that
part of the world tested alongside the majors.
Frank

 

[Ron]

To quote you Frank....(see your post below). "let's say....[etc]". This is
merely hearsay on your part. Where is your proo?. Where are your facts, as
you previously asked me, re: your below post?

Cheers
from Ron Downunder.

*snip*

 

[TJ]

In fairness, Wilhelms tests are pretty good, overall, and shouldn't be
ignored for the information they do provide

Most people who buy 3rd party inks, tend to buy the cheap junk, so the
testing was a reasonable assumption. However, I'll agree that he
probably was inspired to do this particular crop due to the sponsorship
by the large manufacturers. I would actually like to know who covered
the cost for these tests, since he charges something like $15,000 per
ink and paper combo, and I doubt the 3rd parties involved covered the cost.

Having said that, I am quite sure the better quality 3rd party ink
manufacturers can pay for the same tests Epson, HP, Canon and Lexmark do
should they wish to prove the quality of their inks. The 3rd party ink
manufacturers make a minor fortune (not speaking of the distributors,
who sell them under dozens of brand names) so they could afford this,
although it would add to the costs of the product.

Art

They probably could, but why should they? Even assuming an ink
manufacturer KNOWS the results of such tests would be favorable, it
would only make sense for said manufacturer to pay for the tests if they
expected an increase in sales that would more than pay for the tests.
The potential reward has to outweigh the risk, business-wise. I doubt
that sales would increase that much, or that they need to take the risk
that the results would NOT be as they expect. They already do quite
enough business with things as they are.

TJ

 

[TJ]

Bob Headrick wrote:
My thirty year old 8" floppies have


My DC600A tapes are just fine... except for those I used an older drive
on. I was a dumb ass and swapped out my 60meg drive with a 120meg
drive, without understanding that I could no longer read my 60meg tapes
with it. But recently I dragged out one of my old backups of windows
3.1, and much to my surprise, I could still get it.

My DC-120s, that's another story.

But I would agree the tape world is a whole bunch of no fun, esp the
QIC tapes. Even 4mm and 8mm you have compatability issues between
makes... so while you may stilll have data, a given seagate drive may
not beable to read a exabyte tape.

To me it's all rather accidemic as I pulled all my 4gig tapes and
copied them to DVD, and DVD is going to be around for a while, though I
will have to copy them off in 5 or 10 years, by this time there will
will be cheap better than 120mm optical disc drives on the market.

DVD is going to be around for a while? Don't bet on it. That's what we
all thought about CDs just a few years ago. While they're still around
and they can still be used by most computers, DVDs are rapidly taking
over the market. The reign of the CD didn't last nearly as long as that
of the floppy. What makes you think the DVD will be any different?

TJ

 

[Paul Heslop]

DVD is going to be around for a while? Don't bet on it. That's what we
all thought about CDs just a few years ago. While they're still around
and they can still be used by most computers, DVDs are rapidly taking
over the market. The reign of the CD didn't last nearly as long as that
of the floppy. What makes you think the DVD will be any different?

TJ

I don't know a single person who owns a music DVD which doesn't
contain video footage. DVD is still pretty much a visual medium. Data
wise you may well have a point, but I still don't own a pc dvd burner
whereas I do own a stand alone DVD recorder.

 

[Frank]

To quote you Frank....(see your post below). "let's say....[etc]". Thisis
merely hearsay on your part. Where is your proo?. Where are your facts,as
you previously asked me, re: your below post?

Cheers
from Ron Downunder.

*snip*

Or let’s say an ink manufacturer in the Far East has multiple ink
factories that manufacturer ink to certain specifications given to themby
one of the majors. They're doing 'contract manufacturing'. Their agreement
states that they cannot sell the same ink to anyone else. But they make
more ink than the major called for and are selling it "out the back door"
so to speak.
If tested, both inks would product exactly the same results. The
distributor who buys the inks "out the back door" would never want to have
the ink tested. Nor would the manufacturer.
Now knowing the reputation and their proclivity for bending the rules of
patents, proprietarily and intellectual property in this part of the
world, I believe this behavior is both common and rampant.
Just one real reason why you’ll never see after market inks from thatpart
of the world tested alongside the majors.
Frank

Nice try Ron but no cigar. As most readers of my post would immediately
ascertain I'm speculating albeit with a very high degree of probability.
In other words, I'm probably correct in my assumption.
Frank

 

[measekite]

Hi Ron

Remember one thing. There are some people in this ng that you should
never correspond with directly or indirectly. They have very strong
relabeler convictions who think they can sell ice water when they arrive
in hell. And if you do not say what they want to hear they get very
crankie and go he he he instead of ha ha ha.

To quote you Frank....(see your post below). "let's say....[etc]". This is
merely hearsay on your part. Where is your proo?. Where are your facts, as
you previously asked me, re: your below post?

Cheers
from Ron Downunder.

*snip*

Or let’s say an ink manufacturer in the Far East has multiple ink
factories that manufacturer ink to certain specifications given to them by
one of the majors. They're doing 'contract manufacturing'. Their agreement
states that they cannot sell the same ink to anyone else. But they make
more ink than the major called for and are selling it "out the back door"
so to speak.
If tested, both inks would product exactly the same results. The
distributor who buys the inks "out the back door" would never want to have
the ink tested. Nor would the manufacturer.
Now knowing the reputation and their proclivity for bending the rules of
patents, proprietarily and intellectual property in this part of the
world, I believe this behavior is both common and rampant.
Just one real reason why you’ll never see after market inks from that part
of the world tested alongside the majors.
Frank

 

[measekite]

They probably could, but why should they? Even assuming an ink
manufacturer KNOWS the results of such tests would be favorable, it
would only make sense for said manufacturer to pay for the tests if
they expected an increase in sales that would more than pay for the
tests. The potential reward has to outweigh the risk, business-wise. I
doubt that sales would increase that much

because of all of the clogging and poorer quality results. Wilhelm is
only concerned with fading.

 

[measekite]

DVD is going to be around for a while? Don't bet on it. That's what we
all thought about CDs just a few years ago.

Thats not true. Eyes wide open now. TV was an evolution from radio
(audio to audio and video) and DVD is an evolution of CD (audio to audio
and video). When you look at it that way technology builds on technology.

 

[Michael Johnson, PE]

[...]
Anyone that doesn't do a minimum to keep their data safe have no
business complaining should they loose it.

If they loose it then it is in need of a jolly good tighting!

Just a reflection of my fine public school education.

 

[zakezuke]

DVD is going to be around for a while? Don't bet on it. That's what we
all thought about CDs just a few years ago. While they're still around
and they can still be used by most computers, DVDs are rapidly taking
over the market. The reign of the CD didn't last nearly as long as that
of the floppy. What makes you think the DVD will be any different?

Well... We already had CDs. Music on DVD is none too popular even for
those who own combo DVD-video and DVD-a/SACD players. But you can play
CDs on DVD players just fine, in fact they do it very well, so well
that one would be foolish to buy a dedicated CD player when DVD players
cost the same or less, unless they absolutly needed a boom box or a car
stereo. For those, it's not an issue as most music is released on CD.


But why do I think DVD is any different? Downward compatability.
Unlike VHS and Beta, Cassette and 8-track, unlike these guys, downward
compatibility is the bit key in digital media. CD will work on a DVD
player, and currently DVD and CD will work on Bluray/HDDVD players.
Rom drives, currently it's the same deal, you shell out $800 for the
next generation drive and it will read your current DVD+/-R or your old
CD-R.

-----

But some historical perspective. The 5.25 inch floppy was released I
believe in 1975... and while the 3.5 inch floppy was released somewhat
early, as in I forst noticed single sided editions on the Tandy model
100 portable computer, I didn't really see them on desktops until the
late 80s being stock on the consumer Amiga, Atari-ST, and Macintosh.
But it wasn't until there and abouts of 1990 when I could say in all
honesty that I made the switch. So you "could" say the 5.25 was hot
between 1975-1984, 9 years. Popular use was more like 12 to 15 years.
There wer eealier editions of the 3.5 inch floppy, but somewhere
between tandy and the macintosh is the first consumer use of this
product, so about 1984.

DVD, as a consumer standard, is circa 1996/1997 depending on where you
lived. It's currently 2006 and we are just NOW starting to get
something better, and that's "9 years". I'd wager it'll take another 4
years before we get something better available on the consumer level
for a reasonable price.

-----------

I said 5 to 10 years before swaping medium. How is DVD different than
floppy disc? I don't see it as being much different other than the
fact that unlike the 20th century, downward compatability is something
that is the norm, not the exception.

 

[Michael Johnson, PE]

DVD is going to be around for a while? Don't bet on it. That's what we
all thought about CDs just a few years ago. While they're still around
and they can still be used by most computers, DVDs are rapidly taking
over the market. The reign of the CD didn't last nearly as long as that
of the floppy. What makes you think the DVD will be any different?

I think the DVD format will be supported for quite some time. The main
reason is the number of people with extensive DVD movie collections and
home videos based on DVDs. This is the same reason you can still buy a
VHS machine in about any electronics store. Eventually DVD burners will
disappear but I think it won't be for another 15-20 years at the earliest.

Just because a certain media type isn't the dominant one doesn't mean
there isn't a market for it. After all I can still buy floppy drives
and disks at just about any computer store and I bet I will still be
able to buy them 10 years from now. In fact the floppy has morphed
slightly by using current technology. While I don't have a floppy drive
in any of our computers I do have a USB version that will connect to
them. I don't think CD/DVD technology will be any different than the
floppy disk has been over the last 20+ years. In fact, they probably
have more staying power than the floppy due to their wider use as not
only a data storage medium but also as an entertainment medium.

 

[zakezuke]

I don't know a single person who owns a music DVD which doesn't
contain video footage. DVD is still pretty much a visual medium. Data
wise you may well have a point, but I still don't own a pc dvd burner
whereas I do own a stand alone DVD recorder.

It took me years to get a stand alone DVD player. But the moment that
DVD burners became $80, I bought one. Now you can get them for about
$40, and in fact my last two DVD burners I bought were $28 and $35
respectivly. It has reached the point where buying a new drive, you
buy the DVD burner unless you absolutly need specific CD-Burner with
some spiffy extra feature not offered in the DVD burner. It has also
reached the point that you need a DVD drive with some software, and you
could either buy the DVD-rom drive for about $20 to $30, or a burner
for $30 to $40.

 

[Paul Heslop]

It took me years to get a stand alone DVD player. But the moment that
DVD burners became $80, I bought one. Now you can get them for about
$40, and in fact my last two DVD burners I bought were $28 and $35
respectivly. It has reached the point where buying a new drive, you
buy the DVD burner unless you absolutly need specific CD-Burner with
some spiffy extra feature not offered in the DVD burner. It has also
reached the point that you need a DVD drive with some software, and you
could either buy the DVD-rom drive for about $20 to $30, or a burner
for $30 to $40.

Oh I agree, when and if I replace this burner it will be a dvd drive,
and my son owns one. But I will probably still burn cd if I want audio
until the point comes when all audio is dvd based. I define dvd as a
video recording media first, or maybe gaming, but not audio. I've even
seen dvd players which tell you that they cannot play dvd audio discs.