3 motherboards, no POST. I'm flumuxed.

  • Thread starter Thread starter damc2000
  • Start date Start date
kony said:
Few hundred man hours?

Hardly.
Odds are they can cut and paste a design they already had
onto a layout and reroute a couple traces in about 10
minutes. The bios might need manipulated, so being generous
call that another 10 for the person who has become
proficient at it.

BWHAHAHAHAHAA. You really have no ****ing idea!! 20 Minutes to change a chip
on a motherboard!!!! You can't be serious. It could *easily* take weeks of
man time just to work out which chip they want to use. It could *easily*
takes hours of management time just to work out that they want to change the
chip.

I've never designed mothboards but I have done electronic design and I have
worked for manufacturers as a qualified mechanical engineer. Just changing
the smallest part required huge amounts of effort. One project I worked on
they had a hose in a dishwasher that rose about 6 inches and then went back
down 6 inches and out the back of the dishwasher. They wanted me to
investigate removing the kink. I had to set up all sorts of tests to see
what would happen if it was removed and it took weeks of work. Everything
had to be documented and after 4 weeks I gave them my report and they
decided not to change it. If they had changed it there would have been weeks
more of work involved in changing the production line, finding a shorter
hose, training staff, altering repair manuals. They'd also needed to have
kept 2 parts in stock and updated parts database plus a whole lot of stuff I
wouldn't even know about. It would be very easy to look at it from the
outside and just say "oh yeah, they straightened the hose, must have taken
10 minutes". I know a lot of that crap wouldn't apply to motherboards but
literally hundreds even thousands of other issues would.
Testing is going to be the same amount of
time with or without the change- they still have to test it
either way.

Depends if the board is on the market and has already been tested. Naturally
the closer to the start of the design the less time it will take.

Michael
 
BWHAHAHAHAHAA. You really have no ****ing idea!! 20 Minutes to change a chip
on a motherboard!!!! You can't be serious. It could *easily* take weeks of
man time just to work out which chip they want to use. It could *easily*
takes hours of management time just to work out that they want to change the
chip.

They already have the basic reference design and it only
needs massaged to fit. This is within context of what had
been written, changing one sound chip for another. The
vast majority of the supporting components are in the
immediate vicinity, on the reference design, and most sound
chips are not much different in side, it would simply be
rotated to facilitate easiest routing to the power, output
jacks and signal.

You might just be surprised how similar different sound
chips are, most of the differences these days are internal,
not layout related.


I've never designed mothboards but I have done electronic design and I have
worked for manufacturers as a qualified mechanical engineer. Just changing
the smallest part required huge amounts of effort.

Perhaps you were'nt using today's software to do it?
Keep in mind we are not taking about "from scratch" here,
there's an existing design that only needs modified. The
different component takes up roughly the same space on the
board and has similar needs as it is performing same
function (overall).
One project I worked on
they had a hose in a dishwasher that rose about 6 inches and then went back
down 6 inches and out the back of the dishwasher. They wanted me to
investigate removing the kink. I had to set up all sorts of tests to see
what would happen if it was removed and it took weeks of work. Everything
had to be documented and after 4 weeks I gave them my report and they
decided not to change it.

Sounds more difficult than swapping a chip, might be
compared to looking through a parts list for an alternate
piece of cabling that drops into same place, not another
place. Manufacturers are not shuffling around a whole board
to swap a sound chip, it'll go where the other one did or
where they have left space for one if there wasn't any.
If they had changed it there would have been weeks
more of work involved in changing the production line, finding a shorter
hose, training staff, altering repair manuals. They'd also needed to have
kept 2 parts in stock and updated parts database plus a whole lot of stuff I
wouldn't even know about. It would be very easy to look at it from the
outside and just say "oh yeah, they straightened the hose, must have taken
10 minutes". I know a lot of that crap wouldn't apply to motherboards but
literally hundreds even thousands of other issues would.

I can appreciate your perspective, but there are
differences. Modern motherboard design is automated and
pretty much cut-n-paste. Consider that when you did your
job on the hose rerouting, if all you'd had to do was pick
from 5 pre-made designs, cut and paste it into the
engineering schematics and all of those designs had already
been pre-qualified, you wouldn't have had to do it.

What you are describing is work done pre-integration, not at
the time a motherboard is changed. If you want to count that
as # of man-hours, you have a point, though these works are
done to facilitate widespread use, a manufacturer does not
typically use a different sound chip on every board so once
this work is done (reference design is almost always
provided by the chip manufacturer, not developed by the
motherboard manufacturer) the only remaining steps are
adaptation if necessary. Modern motherboards are modular to
a large degree, at least till you start shrinking them to be
mATX.
 
kony said:
They already have the basic reference design and it only
needs massaged to fit. This is within context of what had
been written, changing one sound chip for another. The
vast majority of the supporting components are in the
immediate vicinity, on the reference design, and most sound
chips are not much different in side, it would simply be
rotated to facilitate easiest routing to the power, output
jacks and signal.

You might just be surprised how similar different sound
chips are, most of the differences these days are internal,
not layout related.

Let me give you another example. They wanted to change the *brand* of oil
used in a column heater. This is not oil that it burns but oil that is used
to transfer heat. Again I had weeks of testing for all sorts of things,
someone had to analyse the oil before and after the tests and we had to then
put some units on long term testing in a controlled environment. We also had
to do compliance testing again to make sure it remained legal (max temp on
any surface had to be below X). This was all to change the *brand* of an oil
plus again there would be shitloads of work that I was not involved in.

I agree a lot of motherboard design would be automated and yes they would
have done similar work before but this would take it from being beyond the
realms of impossible to possible. It would NOT make it easy. Just because
you don't know all the work involved does not mean it doesn't exist. Have
you ever worked in large industry to see all the work involved to make the
smallest of changes? Have you ever seen the amount of issues that can arise
from making such a small change? And changing to a new CPU is NOT a small
change.

Getting back to the original point, it is perfectly reasonable that a
manufacturer would have more trouble making a board they are less familiar
with. Car design is very much automated these days but the first of a new
model off the floor always has problems, even from big companies like
Toyota. It's simply impossible for the first production run to be as good as
the last because they learn from real world experience and improve their
production to eliminate problems. It's perfectly reasonable this could
happen with older AMD boards, I've certainly never had 3 faulty intel boards
in a row from a high end manufacturer like Abit. It could be as simple as
one tiny resistor burning out and after a few months of the same problem
they work out they need a bigger resistor.

Michael
 
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