3 motherboards, no POST. I'm flumuxed.

[damc2000]

Hello.

I've had 3 successive mobos fail to POST in similar circumstances. All
3 were installed and working fine but to make minor adjustments I
placed them horizontally on their sides. I plugged only the psu in, no
video and powered up to test fans etc. They all powered up but no POST.
No beeps at all. I've eliminated the CPU, RAM, Video and PSU by trying
known good components. Here's what I've also tried;
Checked all mobo leads etc.
Cleared CMOS, both jumper and battery-removal methods. Even left it ot
overnight.
Removed mobo from case, removed all cards etc. Placed on foam.
I've been very, very careful with static.
I've tried in another case.
I've removed, reseated, regreased CPU and HSF.

The mobos have failed to POST in all circumstances. I guess the mobos
must have been damaged but I haven't heard of mobos being damaged just
by turning on without data cables and on it's side. Please correct me
if I'm mistaken.

Thanks in advance.

[MSI KT3 Ultra2, Athlon XP 2500+ (Barton) and 2 PC Chips M848ALU mobos,
1GB Crucial 2700 RAM, 400w PSU, Spire Speeze SPA04S4-U WhisperRock V
HSF, Realtek Dynamode 10/100
NIC, Nvidia GeForce FX5200 AGPx4, Maxtor Diamondmax Plus9 ATA130 80
Gig]


damc2000

 

[old jon]

Hello.

I've had 3 successive mobos fail to POST in similar circumstances. All
3 were installed and working fine but to make minor adjustments I
placed them horizontally on their sides. I plugged only the psu in, no
video and powered up to test fans etc. They all powered up but no POST.
No beeps at all. I've eliminated the CPU, RAM, Video and PSU by trying
known good components. Here's what I've also tried;
Checked all mobo leads etc.
Cleared CMOS, both jumper and battery-removal methods. Even left it ot
overnight.
Removed mobo from case, removed all cards etc. Placed on foam.
I've been very, very careful with static.
I've tried in another case.
I've removed, reseated, regreased CPU and HSF.

The mobos have failed to POST in all circumstances. I guess the mobos
must have been damaged but I haven't heard of mobos being damaged just
by turning on without data cables and on it's side. Please correct me
if I'm mistaken.

You did remember to plug the PC speaker in ?.

 

[philo]

Hello.

I've had 3 successive mobos fail to POST in similar circumstances. All
3 were installed and working fine but to make minor adjustments I
placed them horizontally on their sides. I plugged only the psu in, no
video and powered up to test fans etc. They all powered up but no POST.
No beeps at all. I've eliminated the CPU, RAM, Video and PSU by trying
known good components. Here's what I've also tried;
Checked all mobo leads etc.
Cleared CMOS, both jumper and battery-removal methods. Even left it ot
overnight.
Removed mobo from case, removed all cards etc. Placed on foam.
I've been very, very careful with static.
I've tried in another case.
I've removed, reseated, regreased CPU and HSF.

<snip>

be sure to have the video card and RAM installed...
i've seen some boards do *nothing* without video and RAM...
(while others will give warning beeps)

 

[kony]

Hello.

I've had 3 successive mobos fail to POST in similar circumstances. All
3 were installed and working fine but to make minor adjustments I
placed them horizontally on their sides. I plugged only the psu in, no
video and powered up to test fans etc. They all powered up but no POST.

Of course not, you have to have video, CPU, 1 memory module
to POST.

No beeps at all.

Beeps are good when they work to signal a problem, but (lack
of) beeps can't tell you anything with certainty.

I've eliminated the CPU, RAM, Video and PSU by trying
known good components.

That doesn't necessarily mean they'll work with a given
motherboard though, occasionally there are odd
incompatibilities even with parts that "should" work
together, EXCEPT, it is not likely these same problems would
be manifested on 3 separate motherboards.

on the other hand, if all three setups used a marginal,
defective or failed power supply, that'd be a clear cause.

Here's what I've also tried;
Checked all mobo leads etc.
Cleared CMOS, both jumper and battery-removal methods. Even left it ot
overnight.
Removed mobo from case, removed all cards etc. Placed on foam.

Not anti-static foam, as used for packing?
never place on an anti-static surface when powered.
If you did, remove from anti-static foam and clear cmos then
retry it.

I've been very, very careful with static.
I've tried in another case.
I've removed, reseated, regreased CPU and HSF.

The mobos have failed to POST in all circumstances.

It's even conceivable you have different problems causing
each to fail. For example, a dead battery on one?

I guess the mobos
must have been damaged but I haven't heard of mobos being damaged just
by turning on without data cables and on it's side. Please correct me
if I'm mistaken.

That alone will not damage one.
You never need data cables to POST.

Thanks in advance.

[MSI KT3 Ultra2, Athlon XP 2500+ (Barton)

This board is not appropriate for a Barton, it's a 133MHz
FSB board and barton is 166MHz (DDR333). While it might
have 166MHz BIOS settings, that doesn't necessarily mean
it's supported. As far as the other issues of a Barton, try
up dating the bios.

If the only CPU you'd tried was a barton, see if you can get
ahold of an older, 133MHz FSB Athlon or Athlon XP. If any
or all boards work with it, you've confirmed them viable and
if they're stable you might then update their bios if
applicable.

and 2 PC Chips M848ALU mobos,

PCChips boards often have quirky (buggy) bios and that one
uses 5V for CPU power. Your PSU will need be fairly good
quality and rated for bare minimum of 180W combined 3V+5V
rating, or more commonly 200W+ 3V+5V rating on median
quality psu.

1GB Crucial 2700 RAM, 400w PSU, Spire Speeze SPA04S4-U WhisperRock V
HSF, Realtek Dynamode 10/100
NIC, Nvidia GeForce FX5200 AGPx4, Maxtor Diamondmax Plus9 ATA130 80
Gig]

I can only assume that at some point you did all 3:
video, CPU, 1 memory module
and after adding them, you disconnected AC power and cleared
CMOS before proceeding to try them. All these elements in
addition to it being outside of the case on a
non-conductive, not anti-static, surface.

 

[Erick]

Well, with the PC Chips boards, I'm not surprised at all that they failed to
POST. However, throwing the MSI into the mix makes it a bit more confusing.
It seems that despite your best efforts to avoid static, etc., the boards
somehow become shocked or shorted.

One question though: Did you happen to use all 3 boards with the same power
supply prior to them not POSTing?


Hello.

I've had 3 successive mobos fail to POST in similar circumstances. All
3 were installed and working fine but to make minor adjustments I
placed them horizontally on their sides. I plugged only the psu in, no
video and powered up to test fans etc. They all powered up but no POST.
No beeps at all. I've eliminated the CPU, RAM, Video and PSU by trying
known good components. Here's what I've also tried;
Checked all mobo leads etc.
Cleared CMOS, both jumper and battery-removal methods. Even left it ot
overnight.
Removed mobo from case, removed all cards etc. Placed on foam.
I've been very, very careful with static.
I've tried in another case.
I've removed, reseated, regreased CPU and HSF.

The mobos have failed to POST in all circumstances. I guess the mobos
must have been damaged but I haven't heard of mobos being damaged just
by turning on without data cables and on it's side. Please correct me
if I'm mistaken.

Thanks in advance.

[MSI KT3 Ultra2, Athlon XP 2500+ (Barton) and 2 PC Chips M848ALU mobos,
1GB Crucial 2700 RAM, 400w PSU, Spire Speeze SPA04S4-U WhisperRock V
HSF, Realtek Dynamode 10/100
NIC, Nvidia GeForce FX5200 AGPx4, Maxtor Diamondmax Plus9 ATA130 80
Gig]


damc2000

 

[Michael C]

Hello.

I've had 3 successive mobos fail to POST in similar circumstances. All
3 were installed and working fine but to make minor adjustments I
placed them horizontally on their sides. I plugged only the psu in, no
video and powered up to test fans etc. They all powered up but no POST.
No beeps at all. I've eliminated the CPU, RAM, Video and PSU by trying
known good components. Here's what I've also tried;
Checked all mobo leads etc.
Cleared CMOS, both jumper and battery-removal methods. Even left it ot
overnight.
Removed mobo from case, removed all cards etc. Placed on foam.
I've been very, very careful with static.
I've tried in another case.
I've removed, reseated, regreased CPU and HSF.

This is the sort of problems I had last time I purchased an AMD cpu and
board. I had to get 3 boards to find one that worked. After having similar
problems with AMD machines I built for others I gave up on them. It was
never the CPU but always the board.

Michael

 

[kony]

This is the sort of problems I had last time I purchased an AMD cpu and
board. I had to get 3 boards to find one that worked. After having similar
problems with AMD machines I built for others I gave up on them. It was
never the CPU but always the board.

Michael

Since most people don't have these kinds of problems with
AMD boards, it would be most useful if you mentioned the
specific boards and CPU combinations so others could avoid
them.

It's not a matter of AMD or Intel, it's specific boards.
Manufacturers making crap will use either chipset and
socket, the last thing that matters is which CPU plugs into
it.

 

[Michael C]

Since most people don't have these kinds of problems with
AMD boards, it would be most useful if you mentioned the
specific boards and CPU combinations so others could avoid
them.

It was an Athlon 1.4 and and ABIT raid board that I had the most trouble
with but I've had problems with other AMD motherboards.

It's not a matter of AMD or Intel, it's specific boards.
Manufacturers making crap will use either chipset and
socket, the last thing that matters is which CPU plugs into
it.

I think motherboard manufacturers have more experience with Intel boards so
produce better boards for them.

Michael

 

[kony]

It was an Athlon 1.4 and and ABIT raid board that I had the most trouble
with but I've had problems with other AMD motherboards.

What specific problem?
Most can be overcome, but taken one board at a time, almost
every board has a bug or two... just look at the errata
sheets for every motherboard intel ever made. It's not that
they're more buggy, only that they thoroughly document.
That in itself is to Intel's credit but then again, if you
have the bug effecting the system it didn't matter a whole
lot of it made it's way into a PDF before being patched or
not.

I think motherboard manufacturers have more experience with Intel boards so
produce better boards for them.

You're certainly entitled to that opinion but there are
plenty of AMD systems running fine all over the world.

More experience isn't necessarily true though, it takes
similar efforts and most of the same technologies to make
either one... save for the northbridge-CPU bus and just how
many northbridge-CPU-bus issues have we read about? None,
AFAIK. The rest is the same!

 

[Michael C]

What specific problem?
Most can be overcome, but taken one board at a time, almost
every board has a bug or two... just look at the errata
sheets for every motherboard intel ever made. It's not that
they're more buggy, only that they thoroughly document.
That in itself is to Intel's credit but then again, if you
have the bug effecting the system it didn't matter a whole
lot of it made it's way into a PDF before being patched or
not.

They were just dead.

You're certainly entitled to that opinion but there are
plenty of AMD systems running fine all over the world.

I'd be interested to see reliability figures. For the heat those athlons put
out I couldn't have seen them winning out. Maybe the new one are better.

More experience isn't necessarily true though, it takes
similar efforts and most of the same technologies to make
either one... save for the northbridge-CPU bus and just how
many northbridge-CPU-bus issues have we read about? None,
AFAIK. The rest is the same!

You just simplified a massively complicated task and made it sound quite
trivial. I don't really know all the work involved in making a motherboard
but I can just imagine the huge number of problems that would arise. It's
not just a matter of wacking a few chips on a pcb. It is quite conceivable
that manufacturers would have had significantly less knowledge of the AMD
cpus and this would have caused some reliability issues. Again, maybe that's
changed now.

Michael

 

[kony]

You just simplified a massively complicated task and made it sound quite
trivial. I don't really know all the work involved in making a motherboard
but I can just imagine the huge number of problems that would arise. It's
not just a matter of wacking a few chips on a pcb.

So far as the design from scratch goes, no it isn't, you're
right. So far as having the core design skills and layout
then customizing it for one platform or the other, it is the
lesser part.

It is quite conceivable
that manufacturers would have had significantly less knowledge of the AMD
cpus and this would have caused some reliability issues. Again, maybe that's
changed now.

It's just as conceivable that if they can do one chipset,
they can do another, and that it matters more which chipset
than which CPU. It's also conceivable that the brand
matters, or the supplier your particular dead boards when
through mattered, or any number of explainations. Your bad
luck is not typical.

 

[damc2000]

Yup. And it had been working beforehand.

 

[damc2000]

Of course not, you have to have video, CPU, 1 memory module
to POST.

I mean the monitor cable; I did have the video adapter installed.

That doesn't necessarily mean they'll work with a given
motherboard though, occasionally there are odd
incompatibilities even with parts that "should" work
together, EXCEPT, it is not likely these same problems would
be manifested on 3 separate motherboards.

on the other hand, if all three setups used a marginal,
defective or failed power supply, that'd be a clear cause.

I bought a decent Antec 350w PSU but it didn't stop the problem
reoccuring on the new boards.

Not anti-static foam, as used for packing?
never place on an anti-static surface when powered.
If you did, remove from anti-static foam and clear cmos then
retry it.

OK. But clearing the CMOS still doesn't solve the problem.

It's even conceivable you have different problems causing
each to fail. For example, a dead battery on one?

I've tried new batteries on each mobo also.

I guess the mobos
must have been damaged but I haven't heard of mobos being damaged just
by turning on without data cables and on it's side. Please correct me
if I'm mistaken.

That alone will not damage one.
You never need data cables to POST.

Thanks in advance.

[MSI KT3 Ultra2, Athlon XP 2500+ (Barton)

This board is not appropriate for a Barton, it's a 133MHz
FSB board and barton is 166MHz (DDR333). While it might
have 166MHz BIOS settings, that doesn't necessarily mean
it's supported. As far as the other issues of a Barton, try
up dating the bios.

If the only CPU you'd tried was a barton, see if you can get
ahold of an older, 133MHz FSB Athlon or Athlon XP. If any
or all boards work with it, you've confirmed them viable and
if they're stable you might then update their bios if
applicable.

The barton worked for ages on the KT3 without a problem. I then tried a
Sempron 2400+ on all 3 after the problem occured and it failed to work
also.

and 2 PC Chips M848ALU mobos,

PCChips boards often have quirky (buggy) bios and that one
uses 5V for CPU power. Your PSU will need be fairly good
quality and rated for bare minimum of 180W combined 3V+5V
rating, or more commonly 200W+ 3V+5V rating on median
quality psu.

1GB Crucial 2700 RAM, 400w PSU, Spire Speeze SPA04S4-U WhisperRock V
HSF, Realtek Dynamode 10/100
NIC, Nvidia GeForce FX5200 AGPx4, Maxtor Diamondmax Plus9 ATA130 80
Gig]

I can only assume that at some point you did all 3:
video, CPU, 1 memory module
and after adding them, you disconnected AC power and cleared
CMOS before proceeding to try them. All these elements in
addition to it being outside of the case on a
non-conductive, not anti-static, surface.

I did try it on the anti-static foam. I've now tried it on a non-static
surface, clearing cmos etc. with no joy. Could the attempts on the
anti-static foam have actually damaged the boards?

damc2000

 

[damc2000]

Well, with the PC Chips boards, I'm not surprised at all that they failed to
POST. However, throwing the MSI into the mix makes it a bit more confusing.
It seems that despite your best efforts to avoid static, etc., the boards
somehow become shocked or shorted.

It does seem so. I do work in a carpeted room but I thought using the
anti-static strap and being ultra-careful I would be okay.

One question though: Did you happen to use all 3 boards with the same power
supply prior to them not POSTing?

I bought a new Antec 350w but it did not stop the problem reoccurring
with the new boards.

 

[damc2000]

Yup. And it had been working beforehand.

Sorry, forgot to qioute text. Was reply to following message.

" old jon
Jan 15, 4:42 pm show options

Newsgroups: alt.comp.hardware
From: "old jon" <[email protected]> - Find messages by this
author
Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 16:42:55 GMT
Local: Sun, Jan 15 2006 4:42 pm
Subject: Re: 3 motherboards, no POST. I'm flumuxed.
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
original | Report Abuse

You did remember to plug the PC speaker in ?."

 

[kony]

On 16 Jan 2006 08:56:17 -0800, "damc2000"

I did try it on the anti-static foam. I've now tried it on a non-static
surface, clearing cmos etc. with no joy. Could the attempts on the
anti-static foam have actually damaged the boards?

It is very common to see boards not work due to being on
anti-static foam but I dont' recall ever seeing one not work
later, be damaged by it. However, I don't know if it's
theoretically possible, may depend on what circuits are
exposed on the back and if someone had first tried a board
on the anti-static foam and then never gotten it to work, it
becomes difficult if not impossible to pinpoint the cause
with only one sample, no way to reproduce the event with
another known-viable sample.

In other words, I would expect no damage as boards have
worked after previously being incapacitated while on
anti-static foam.

 

[Michael C]

It's just as conceivable that if they can do one chipset,
they can do another, and that it matters more which chipset
than which CPU.

You are way underestimated the complexity of the task. For every board they
make there would be hundreds of small problems that need to be resolved,
possibly thousands. You'd be suprised at all the crap that would arise. I've
never built anything as complex as a motherboard but I've done some much
simpler microprocessor circuits so I know the problems that can arise. If
all you've done is put PCs together then it would be easy to think they just
bang together a motherboard.

It's also conceivable that the brand
matters, or the supplier your particular dead boards when
through mattered, or any number of explainations. Your bad
luck is not typical.

As threads like this show

Michael

 

[kony]

You are way underestimated the complexity of the task. For every board they
make there would be hundreds of small problems that need to be resolved,
possibly thousands.

Before they gain experience in a given technology, yes, but
even so it IS their whole business to do this and with each
new board, each design they cannot just "skip" a step
depending on whether it's Via or Sis or AMD vs Intel CPU.
While the fundamentals of producing product are complex,
which CPU is onboard is realatively minor.

You'd be suprised at all the crap that would arise. I've
never built anything as complex as a motherboard but I've done some much
simpler microprocessor circuits so I know the problems that can arise. If
all you've done is put PCs together then it would be easy to think they just
bang together a motherboard.

No, not the motherboard, the CPU. You try to lump the two
together when the CPU is but a minor detail such as which
network controller or sound chip is onboard. It is more
complex than those chips but a similar requirement in that
the remaining technologies are static.

 

[Michael C]

Before they gain experience in a given technology, yes, but
even so it IS their whole business to do this and with each
new board, each design they cannot just "skip" a step
depending on whether it's Via or Sis or AMD vs Intel CPU.
While the fundamentals of producing product are complex,
which CPU is onboard is realatively minor.

You're still doing it, dismissing the massive complexities of designing a
board. Changing the CPU would be a *huge* task requiring fundamental
redesigning of the board and is definately not a "relatively minor" task.
Just because you don't know what's involved doesn't mean it wouldn't be
massively complicated. It's very easy to look at anything from the outside
and dismiss the complexities of any particular task just because you don't
know what's involved. I don't know how to phrase this differently so you'll
understand.

No, not the motherboard, the CPU. You try to lump the two
together when the CPU is but a minor detail such as which
network controller or sound chip is onboard.

Even something as simple as changing a sound chip would require a
significant amount of work, although I'd say this is something they could do
with a few hundred man hours by now.

Michael

 

[kony]

Even something as simple as changing a sound chip would require a
significant amount of work, although I'd say this is something they could do
with a few hundred man hours by now.

Few hundred man hours?

Hardly.
Odds are they can cut and paste a design they already had
onto a layout and reroute a couple traces in about 10
minutes. The bios might need manipulated, so being generous
call that another 10 for the person who has become
proficient at it. Testing is going to be the same amount of
time with or without the change- they still have to test it
either way.