X850, no AGP, this sux

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doug.drodskie

ATI customer care replied to my query and confirmed that "there are no plans
to produce the X850 in AGP format", but then hedged their bets by saying
"maybe later in 2005". There's only $50 between the X800XT PE AGP and the
X850XT PE PE, but add to that a new mobo, 1 MB of RAM and a new processor
and the price difference becomes substantial. This sux! :(
 
ATI customer care replied to my query and confirmed that "there are no
plans
to produce the X850 in AGP format", but then hedged their bets by saying
"maybe later in 2005". There's only $50 between the X800XT PE AGP and the
X850XT PE PE, but add to that a new mobo, 1 MB of RAM and a new processor
and the price difference becomes substantial. This sux! :(
Click to expand...


Oh well, I guess they've lost out on a lot of potential sales then. When I
bought my motherboard a little over a year ago, there was no PCI Express at
all. I don't know what the big rush is to push people into it prematurely,
other than to pad the pockets of motherboard manufacturers. AGP is still
good and capable in today's age. I sure as Hell aren't changing my
motherboard, processor and RAM until I'm good and ready to do so myself.

I'd suggest taking a look at the X800 XL, as I'm sure it will make it's way
to AGP sooner rather than later. It promises to be an excellent card.
 
NightSky said:
Oh well, I guess they've lost out on a lot of potential sales then. When
I bought my motherboard a little over a year ago, there was no PCI Express
at
all. I don't know what the big rush is to push people into it
prematurely,
other than to pad the pockets of motherboard manufacturers.
Click to expand...

It's not padding their pockets so much as it's padding Intel's. Intel
doesn't put AGP on their chipsets anymore. Your choice is to build a board
with PCI Express or not use an Intel chipset. While that's a viable choice
for many, any motherboard manufacturer that makes no Intel-based boards is
closing themselves out of a lot of markets.
 
J. Clarke said:
It's not padding their pockets so much as it's padding Intel's. Intel
doesn't put AGP on their chipsets anymore. Your choice is to build a
board
with PCI Express or not use an Intel chipset. While that's a viable
choice
for many, any motherboard manufacturer that makes no Intel-based boards is
closing themselves out of a lot of markets.
Click to expand...

The problem is, virtually all PC's out there now have AGP in them, except
for those few that have PCI only. ATI will shoot themselves in the foot by
going strictly PCI-E, and losing out on virtually the entire home market for
people who want a video card to play games and require an upgrade in the
future. I think PCI-E is the right direction, but to cut AGP support
entirely is dumb, at least this point in time. At least let the market get
somewhat saturated with PCI-E mobos then do it. Right now there isn't much
offered in the way of PCI-E compatible mobos, and as I said, virtually 100%
of the home market has AGP mobos right now.
 
J. Clarke said:
It's not padding their pockets so much as it's padding Intel's.
Click to expand...


OK, both then. :-)

Intel
doesn't put AGP on their chipsets anymore. Your choice is to build a
board
with PCI Express or not use an Intel chipset. While that's a viable
choice
for many, any motherboard manufacturer that makes no Intel-based boards is
closing themselves out of a lot of markets.
Click to expand...


I was not aware that Intel is doing this with their chipsets now (dropping
AGP). However, the industry, especially the graphics card industry, should
understand that almost all the PC's out there right now have AGP, as
HockeyTownUSA mentions. PCI Express will take over in the future (give it
18 to 24 months), but not producing AGP cards doesn't make a lot of sense
unless supply is short of the highest-end graphics cards.
 
ATI customer care replied to my query and
confirmed that "there are no plans to produce
the X850 in AGP format", but then hedged
their bets by saying "maybe later in 2005".
There's only $50 between the X800XT PE
AGP and the X850XT PE PE, but add to
that a new mobo, 1 MB of RAM and a new
processor and the price difference becomes
substantial. This sux!
Click to expand...

On the other hand the performance difference
between the two video cards is apparently so
marginal (according to the one article I've seen)
that anyone prepared to shell out the extra for
the 850 isn't going to balk at chaning their
mainboard. There's no reason for buying the 850
other than to have absolutely the latest card.**
Anyone buying it for that reason strikes me as "a
fool" - and they're not well known for their
affinity for money.

Neil

** Apart from (perhaps) the possibility that the
850 (it is claimed) may be slightly more readily
available than the 800, but that remains to be
seen.
 
NightSky said:
OK, both then. :-)






I was not aware that Intel is doing this with their chipsets now (dropping
AGP). However, the industry, especially the graphics card industry, should
understand that almost all the PC's out there right now have AGP, as
HockeyTownUSA mentions. PCI Express will take over in the future (give it
18 to 24 months), but not producing AGP cards doesn't make a lot of sense
unless supply is short of the highest-end graphics cards.
Click to expand...
I think part of their rational is that usually only the hard core gamers
buy their top of the line cards and they usually have only the "newest
and greatest" setup. They want to sell as many of their newest card as
possible to a group that can use it to generate the best numbers. They
don't care about the guy with a middle of the road computer because it
can't fully utilize the capabilities of the new card and they don't want
him complaining that his new $500 video card had almost no affect on his
gaming scores.
 
I was not aware that Intel is doing this with their chipsets now (dropping
AGP). However, the industry, especially the graphics card industry, should
understand that almost all the PC's out there right now have AGP, as
HockeyTownUSA mentions. PCI Express will take over in the future (give it
18 to 24 months), but not producing AGP cards doesn't make a lot of sense
unless supply is short of the highest-end graphics cards.
Click to expand...
At first glance, I thought maybe ATI was doing so to try and push
PCI-E to mainstream more quickly, but that would only be a smart move
if they had a HUGE lead over nVidia. If ATI abandons AGP too soon,
this would be an excelent opportunity for nVidia to gain a sizable
lead. If that's the case, then don't expect prices to drop as quickly
as they have in the past. Nvidia would just make AGP cards, add
$50-$100 to the price, and make a killing off those that want a faster
card but don't want to upgrade mobos, mem, cpu, ect.
 
HockeyTownUSA said:
The problem is, virtually all PC's out there now have AGP in them, except
for those few that have PCI only. ATI will shoot themselves in the foot by
going strictly PCI-E, and losing out on virtually the entire home market
for people who want a video card to play games and require an upgrade in
the future. I think PCI-E is the right direction, but to cut AGP support
entirely is dumb, at least this point in time. At least let the market get
somewhat saturated with PCI-E mobos then do it. Right now there isn't much
offered in the way of PCI-E compatible mobos, and as I said, virtually
100% of the home market has AGP mobos right now.
Click to expand...

One wonders how much of the market for high-end video boards is as retrofits
for existing machines. I know that there's a fantasy that this is a vast
market, but that doesn't mean that it really is.

As for there being "not much in the way of PCI Express motherboards" Newegg
has three pages of them with the latest Intel chipsets. The new nvidia
chipset that should be available in boards sometime this month will be PCI
Express only, the latest Via chipset for AMD-64 ditto, as well as the
latest SiS.
 
Neil said:
On the other hand the performance difference
between the two video cards is apparently so
marginal (according to the one article I've seen)
that anyone prepared to shell out the extra for
the 850 isn't going to balk at chaning their
mainboard. There's no reason for buying the 850
other than to have absolutely the latest card.**
Anyone buying it for that reason strikes me as "a
fool" - and they're not well known for their
affinity for money.

Neil

** Apart from (perhaps) the possibility that the
850 (it is claimed) may be slightly more readily
available than the 800, but that remains to be
seen.
Click to expand...
Don't be judgemental, you cannot know everyone's circumstances. I have a
9700 Pro and although I am starting to back off on AA, AF, res, and latest
game quality settings a little, it's not imperitive I upgrade the VPU now.
However, I have a time-limited opportunity to SAVE about $850 on an
'absolutely the latest card'. If I could find an X800XT PE AGP I would get
it but it looks as though it, and the X850, will become available at the
same time, making it better for me to buy the X850, but not if I have to
upgrade everything else to the latest as well. That's why it sux so bad for
me.

I agree with the fellow above, if nVidia bring out a card above the 6800
Ultra Extreme Edition in AGP soon, it's bye bye ATI.
 
One wonders how much of the market for high-end video boards is as
retrofits
for existing machines. I know that there's a fantasy that this is a vast
market, but that doesn't mean that it really is.
Click to expand...

So you think all these video cards are for NEW machines? I don't think so.
High-end video card buyers are most likely the same kind of people that tend
to upgrade frequently. I probably buy a new video card and/or processr every
year, and a new mobo every 2-3 years. And while I tend to be on the upper
end of the "high-end" PC consumers, I still refuse to change my mobo after a
year of use just to get a new video card. I don't think this is an
unreasonable assessment for other consumers like myself. To me it is a bad
business decision just to assume that everyone will gladly go out and change
their mobo just to

As for there being "not much in the way of PCI Express motherboards"
Newegg
has three pages of them with the latest Intel chipsets. The new nvidia
chipset that should be available in boards sometime this month will be PCI
Express only, the latest Via chipset for AMD-64 ditto, as well as the
latest SiS.
Click to expand...

They exist, yes. But how many are in user's PC's today? They are just
available in mass quantities recently, and this is Intel only right now. AMD
has yet to have anything available. If I have to buy a nVidia card just so
that I can have my next AGP card, I will do just that. Then when I am ready
to update my system, I will go with PCI-E, but I'm not gonna blow an
additional several hundred dollars just so that I can buy a new video card.

It's like asking consumers to buy a whole new engine for their car to reap
the benefits of an amazing new spark plug. Doesn't make sense.

 
HockeyTownUSA said:
So you think all these video cards are for NEW machines? I don't think so.
High-end video card buyers are most likely the same kind of people that tend
to upgrade frequently. I probably buy a new video card and/or processr every
year, and a new mobo every 2-3 years. And while I tend to be on the upper
end of the "high-end" PC consumers, I still refuse to change my mobo after a
year of use just to get a new video card. I don't think this is an
unreasonable assessment for other consumers like myself. To me it is a bad
business decision just to assume that everyone will gladly go out and change
their mobo just to





They exist, yes. But how many are in user's PC's today? They are just
available in mass quantities recently, and this is Intel only right now. AMD
has yet to have anything available. If I have to buy a nVidia card just so
that I can have my next AGP card, I will do just that. Then when I am ready
to update my system, I will go with PCI-E, but I'm not gonna blow an
additional several hundred dollars just so that I can buy a new video card.

It's like asking consumers to buy a whole new engine for their car to reap
the benefits of an amazing new spark plug. Doesn't make sense.
Click to expand...
In my case I did just the opposite. I just bought a new motherboard for
a Pentium 4 3.4 GHz processor. As I did not want to replace my very
good 9700 Pro I found one of the few motherboards that supports socket
775 and does not have PCI-E. I see no reason to spend over $400 and
maybe have to wait months for a comparable card to what I already have.
Almost all new Pentium 4s are the new socket and the motherboards for
them are PCI-E.
 
HockeyTownUSA said:
So you think all these video cards are for NEW machines? I don't think so.
Click to expand...

So, how many boards do consumers buy to put in existing machines compared to
the number that Dell, DECPaqard, IBM, Gateway, Sony, etc buy to put in
_new_ machines? Yeah, they sell the boards to end users, but is that
really where the major market is?
High-end video card buyers are most likely the same kind of people that
tend to upgrade frequently. I probably buy a new video card and/or
processr every year, and a new mobo every 2-3 years. And while I tend to
be on the upper end of the "high-end" PC consumers, I still refuse to
change my mobo after a year of use just to get a new video card.
Click to expand...

Obviously they don't really care what you do.
I don't
think this is an unreasonable assessment for other consumers like myself.
To me it is a bad business decision just to assume that everyone will
gladly go out and change their mobo just to
Click to expand...

If in fact they expect to make any significant profit out of that market
segment and aren't just there for bragging rights in advertising.
They exist, yes. But how many are in user's PC's today? They are just
available in mass quantities recently, and this is Intel only right now.
AMD has yet to have anything available. If I have to buy a nVidia card
just so that I can have my next AGP card, I will do just that. Then when I
am ready to update my system, I will go with PCI-E, but I'm not gonna blow
an additional several hundred dollars just so that I can buy a new video
card.
Click to expand...

Then obviously having the "latest and greatest" isn't all that important to
you.
It's like asking consumers to buy a whole new engine for their car to reap
the benefits of an amazing new spark plug. Doesn't make sense.
Click to expand...

No, it's like asking them to buy a whole new chassis to get the benefit of
the new 14-cylinder engine or whatever. Spark plug upgrades don't alter
performance much, video processors do.
 
HockeyTownUSA said:
And while I tend to be on the upper end of the "high-end" PC consumers, I
still refuse to change my mobo after a year of use just to get a new video
card. I don't think this is an unreasonable assessment for other consumers
like myself. To me it is a bad business decision just to assume that
everyone will gladly go out and change their mobo just to
Click to expand...


BINGO!!! My sentiments exactly.
 
ATI's decision is reminiscent of the type of decisions made by 3DFX. nVidia
saw their opporunity to pounce then, I wonder if they're as alert now and
will catch ATI at a time when their current high end cards are still not
reaching the market in any significant numbers and the AGP market is not
geared for their new high end cards yet. All they have been selling for
months now is their middle-of-the-road products. 3DFX also had the faster
card, didn't save them.
 
ATI's decision is reminiscent of the type of decisions made by 3DFX.
Click to expand...

3Dfx was never the default video on Dell, Gatewayk, IBM, and _everybody_'s
servers.
nVidia saw their opporunity to pounce then, I wonder if they're as alert
now and will catch ATI at a time when their current high end cards are
still not reaching the market in any significant numbers and the AGP
market is not geared for their new high end cards yet. All they have been
selling for months now is their middle-of-the-road products. 3DFX also had
the faster card, didn't save them.
Click to expand...

3DFX never had a mass market--they tried to survive on the gamer elite and
it wasn't enough. I suspect that ATI is more interested in keeping their
high volume customers happy than in getting a few sales to legacy gamers.
 
ATI customer care replied to my query and confirmed that "there are no
plans
to produce the X850 in AGP format", but then hedged their bets by saying
"maybe later in 2005". There's only $50 between the X800XT PE AGP and the
X850XT PE PE, but add to that a new mobo, 1 MB of RAM and a new processor
and the price difference becomes substantial. This sux! :(
Click to expand...

Well they have to get X800XT PE out first...
 
"Neil" <[email protected]>
wrote in message

Don't be judgemental, you cannot know
everyone's circumstances. I have a 9700 Pro
and although I am starting to back off on AA,
AF, res, and latest game quality settings a
little, it's not imperitive I upgrade the VPU
now. However, I have a time-limited
opportunity to SAVE about $850 on an
'absolutely the latest card'. If I could find an
X800XT PE AGP I would get it but it looks as
though it, and the X850, will become available
at the same time, making it better for me to
buy the X850, but not if I have to upgrade
everything else to the latest as well. That's
why it sux so bad for me.
Click to expand...
I still think the only reason for buying an 850 is
if it is more readily available than an 800, which
I admit, appear to be almost non-existant. The
cards are "the same". The performance is "the
same". (If you were really insistent, I'd bet you
stand a chance of running the 800 at the same
clock speeds as the 850). I personally am a fan
of buying "one notch down" from the current latest
and greatest, and I've ended up with a 9800Pro
from about the time the X800 was being "released"
(which I've managed to turn into a 128MB XT). But
if there is a peculiar opportunity for you to buy
the latest and greatest at a knock-down price,
then fair enough. At the moment though, from ATi,
the X800 XT PE and the X850 XT PE are both
equally late and great. If you have an AGP
mainboard you get the former, if you have a PCI-E
board you buy the former as well (and save a few
quid, if you can find it - otherwise you buy the
latter).

If you wanted the latest and greatest video card
that you could use in your current AGP board, and
still use in your next mainboard, I reckon you're
stuffed. And for that reason I think a lot of
people's next serious upgrades are going to have
to involve changing the lot, i.e. mainboard,
processor and video card. Would you really want
to be able to spend £400 (or whatever) on a new
AGP video card and then have to "throw it away"
next year when you want a processor upgrade and
the only way to do it is with a PCI-E mainboard?
 
This whole thread is a joke.

This is the same bullshit that came out when AGP
was new, just replace PE-AGP with AGP-PCI.

The transition to PE will happen and the world
will be a better place.

All hail INTEL and ATI!!!!!!!!!!
 
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