Wrong Direction

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I've been a user of FP since 1995 (before it was called FP). I'm an amateur,
but have built a few dozen sites using the software.

Although I understand that MS is going after the more professional webmaster
than I, it seems to me that the software is going in the wrong direction.
What I'm looking for is an application like Word - where GUI makes it easier
for the user and not more difficult. It appears to me that the HTML ought to
be built appropriately in the background while the user (me) simply builds
what is appropriate for the viewer.

Call me crazy, but the direction of this software seems to be going back
asswards.

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http://www.microsoft.com/office/com...d28a7ab2&dg=microsoft.public.frontpage.client
 
That would be MS Publisher where you select the Web Site template. You never see any HTML code nor
will you have any control over the HTML that is generated.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WebMaster Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
If you feel your current issue is a results of installing
a Service Pack or security update, please contact
Microsoft Product Support Services:
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If the problem can be shown to have been caused by a
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The problem with Publisher is that it doesn't provide for organization (e.g.,
directories). I do have friends that publish webs using Word, but they look
clunky to me.

My comment was intended to indicate that FP has been made more webmaster
(e.g., programmer) friendly rather than occasional user friendly. I've
little doubt that it is a superior product, but for an occasional (once a
week or so) user, it seems to be headed in the wrong direction. It's being
directed to address a different market (programers) than I am in (GUI user).

I produce non-ASP, quite flat webpages that don't need a lot of maintenance.
Although I dislike the idea, I may need to go to some other software or
simply stic with FP XP. Any suggestion?
 
I think you will see that FrontPage will continue to move in that direction.

I think Publisher can do a better job at creating web sites, then say Word, but it does have it
limitations. However if you don't want to learn HTML, CSS, etc. then Publisher is way to go.

FrontPage on the other hand, you will need learn the ends and outs of web development.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WebMaster Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
If you feel your current issue is a results of installing
a Service Pack or security update, please contact
Microsoft Product Support Services:
http://support.microsoft.com
If the problem can be shown to have been caused by a
security update, then there is usually no charge for the call.
==============================================
 
"FrontPage on the other hand, you will need learn the ends and outs of web
development."

I've been doing it (amateur web development) for a decade - why learn
another language (HTML, etc.) now just because MS says I need to. I'll stick
to what I know rather (GUI) than have something shoved down my throat. I'll
stay with FP XP until something comes along that meets my needs rather than
another market's (programer's) needs - thank you very much.

My point is - MS is going after another market that I'm not in. I'll try
Publisher, but I don't think it will provide the organization I need. The
beauty of FP has been that one didn't need to know HTML. MS has violated
that model with the current version.

I'm not saying that FP 2003 isn't a fine piece of software. What I AM
saying is that it has been needlessly complicated to favor the programming
webmaster to the disadvantage of the occasional webmaster (who isn't a
programmer).
 
Just so they remember to keep that .pub file in a safe
place......................
 
You still don't need to know html with FrontPage 2003.
If you want, you can work strictly in design view, if you're happy with wysiwyg.

However, if you're really serious about web design, then it would behoove you to become
familiar with html and also javascript.

The internet is an ever developing ever evolving critter, and regardless of what you
perceive, Microsoft is not forcing anyone to learn anything new with newer versions of
FrontPage. They are however creating products that are capable of meeting and exceeding
the needs of the average "web designer" while at the same time making it possible for a
web designer at any "experience level" to see what is going on "behind the scene."


--
Steve Easton
Microsoft MVP FrontPage
95isalive
This site is best viewed..................
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Didn't the old FP (really old) have an option for Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced user...where it would only show the user certain options based upon what they chose as their level?

Do you remember? or am I getting realllly old and confusted - rhetorical...no need to answer that :-)))
 
Let's not run around this barn again ... but I really wish you wouldn't
suggest Publisher for any sort of web site building ... for all the reasons
that have been discussed in a few previous posts. It simply is not the
correct tool for the job. Scott should try to find the time, and with the
use of a good book such as Jim Buyens, learn what he needs to know for his
'simpler' type of sites.
Look at an article from the author here:
http://www.interlacken.com/winnt/tips/tipshow.aspx?tip=29
Eleanor
 
No.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WebMaster Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
If you feel your current issue is a results of installing
a Service Pack or security update, please contact
Microsoft Product Support Services:
http://support.microsoft.com
If the problem can be shown to have been caused by a
security update, then there is usually no charge for the call.
==============================================

Didn't the old FP (really old) have an option for Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced user...where it
would only show the user certain options based upon what they chose as their level?

Do you remember? or am I getting realllly old and confusted - rhetorical...no need to answer that
:-)))
 
Sorry, I have to disagree, as long as the MS Publisher user select the Web Site template (not
converting a standard Publisher document to a web), they can create web site without knowing or
seeing any HTML that will display in most current browsers.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WebMaster Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
If you feel your current issue is a results of installing
a Service Pack or security update, please contact
Microsoft Product Support Services:
http://support.microsoft.com
If the problem can be shown to have been caused by a
security update, then there is usually no charge for the call.
==============================================
 
oh...now I see what your saying.


Thomas A. Rowe said:
Sorry, I have to disagree, as long as the MS Publisher user select the Web Site template (not
converting a standard Publisher document to a web), they can create web site without knowing or
seeing any HTML that will display in most current browsers.

--
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WebMaster Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
If you feel your current issue is a results of installing
a Service Pack or security update, please contact
Microsoft Product Support Services:
http://support.microsoft.com
If the problem can be shown to have been caused by a
security update, then there is usually no charge for the call.
==============================================
Click to expand...
 
Ah, OK, that's much clearer ... but I'm not going to even bother to
experiment! Sorry.
Eleanor
 
I think the real problem here is the fact that web development has become
more and more complex the last few years. FP has added more features to get
to the HTML if you need to, but you still don't have to do it. Another
partof the problem is there is a new surge of web browsers, each with their
own quirks on how they interpret the HTML. To make a site look good,
sometimes you need to get right at the HTML to do it in order to finely
tweak a design. There are so many tweaks that can be done to HTML to make it
look the same in all browsers it's difficult for any one tool to create HTML
for all of them (I have yet seen one that can do this). Initially FrontPage
users hated FP because it didn't let you tweak HTML. Microsoft has slowly
altered that after it purchased FrontPage because of user demands. FP 98 and
2000 took great leaps in this area based upon user comments. Now things are
changing because HTML is changing into XHTML, which was approved as the new
standard over 4 years ago now but has had slow adoption as the browsers have
changed and the tools have only now started to adopt it (another reason why
users wanted access to the HTML in order to guarantee that it's compliant).

You might want to try a program called NetObjects Fusion. It was a niche
player back in 96 (costing over $600) but failed to catch on because it
generated poor HTML but had the ability to do pixel level layouts in a nice
design view. It's been bought out and still has a decent following but
offers better (if not perfect) HTML generation and still offers a nice
design view.

Hope this helps,
Mark Fitzpatrick
Microsoft MVP - FrontPage
 
I disagree.

For FP to remain a viable product, it needs to advance. Yes
there are more tools which you can use, and they are getting
more complicated to use. But then again, you don't need to
use them. If you want to use some of the new tools is up to
you . But they are there in case you decide to make the next
step in web developement

If you don't want to use a more complicated product, then
don't buy it. FP 2000 still works for me. The added on items
in 02 or 03 are tools I really don't need.

Word is alot more complicated now than it was a few years
ago too. All software is.




Scott Douglas wrote:
: I've been a user of FP since 1995 (before it was called
: FP). I'm an amateur, but have built a few dozen sites
: using the software.
:
: Although I understand that MS is going after the more
: professional webmaster than I, it seems to me that the
: software is going in the wrong direction. What I'm
: looking for is an application like Word - where GUI makes
: it easier for the user and not more difficult. It
: appears to me that the HTML ought to be built
: appropriately in the background while the user (me)
: simply builds what is appropriate for the viewer.
:
: Call me crazy, but the direction of this software seems
: to be going back asswards.
 
Thanks to each of you. I will check into each of the recommendations. I
think the short term solution is for me to continue using FP 2002 (which I'm
comfortable with) until (or if) a version of FP comes out that is easier to
use than FP 2003.
 
I'm sure the next release will be even more advanced that FP 2003 is, rather
than simpler. But as has already been mentioned, use only the tools in
Frontpage that you need - even if that means only inserting images and
writing text on the screen, and including a few hyperlinks.

You certainly don't need to know HTML for that, and wouldn't need to touch
the HTML if you didn't want to.
 
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