Worried

[floppybootstomp]

Those who've known me a while in Forum-land may know I always try and take an optmistic take on life for the most part, and I frown on those who say things were better in their day and that the youth of today are awful.

It's a common refrain, isn't it? Usually delivered by a load of cynical old narrow-minded fools who frown at just about everything.

I've always taken the view young folk are really no different to me when I was younger, always thought it was a myth that every generation born 20 or 30 years earlier was somehow magically better than the current generation.

That's not the case, it's just that a certain number of years difference will give people a different take on life, is all.

However, lately I've had my outlook challenged and I am a little nervous, to be honest.

In less than a month, here in my neighbourhood, we've had an 18 year old and a 16 year old murdered.

One at Lee Green, Jimmy Mizzen, 16 years old and one day. Lee Green is where I passed my motor cycle test when I was 16.

One at Sidcup, an 18 year old. I lived at Sidcup very near to where this young guy was murdered, for almost 4 years.

Knives.

There have been a lot of deaths in the UK amongst youngsters this year, the trend is increasing, and nearly all of them are through knives.

Most of these deaths are young black guys, who tend to favour the gang ethos more than their white counterpart. Or Asian counterpart for that matter.

The last two young murders we've suffered have been white guys so it would seem this violence is not following a set pattern.

Are things getting worse? Is this a sign of the times? Am I forgetting the murders that took place when I was that age?

I don't know, but it sure as hell makes me sad and also worries me. I've always felt safe walking these streets, albeit with a wary eye, but now, should I be getting nervous?

 

[Waynos_Face]

Its a fair point that you make Flopps.

I mean, i'm 27 and have been trained very well by the Military and if i have to can defend myself quite well. However i do see what your saying. I do feel concerned for older generations of people as my grandparents often tell me that they don't venture out in the evenings anymore, and frequently have to cross the road to avoid abuse from gangs of youths. What kind of coward offers a 81 year old man to fight?

I think that with British Culture the way it is now, it is viewed to be far cooler to be affiliated with some sort of gang than not to be. I remember seeing recently on the news an article about why people carry knives and the general consensus was that it was for protection. But statistics show that you're far more likely to be involved in an incident if you do carry a knive.

When i did sociology A Level, we did a piece on migratory behaviour trends and we found Britain to be about 15 - 20 years behind America in behavioural patterns. People say that they are products of thier environments, but this is just a poor excuse for lack of courage or morals.

I think you have good cause for concern, i don't know Greenwich too well so don't know what kind of area it is. I'm just thankful i live in a nice apartment block with gated video entry.

 

[floppybootstomp]

Oh, I'm not really worried about me, lol, I'm 57, which these days whilst not exactly ancient, could be described as 'somewhat long in the tooth' lol With all I've gone through and am still going through to a certain extent, I can honestly say if I went down tomorrow I really wouldn't be too upset.

I dare say my three daughters may be, but that's a different matter.

No, what is upsetting me is all this worthless loss of life, it's really upsetting me.

I've been through a 100 things that should have killed me but I'm still here. Still smiling, too.

I've seen a score and more young lives wiped out so far this year and this last two have been close to home and within my own culture. It's both sad and scary.

Young men will allways fight, well, most of them. Myself, I always tried to avoid it. Didn't like it mostly cos it hurt, lol

Haven't had a proper fight since 1983, actually, which is good.

But there's no need to kill, there really isn't.

 

[nivrip]

Are things getting worse? Is this a sign of the times? Am I forgetting the murders that took place when I was that age?

I don't know, but it sure as hell makes me sad and also worries me. I've always felt safe walking these streets, albeit with a wary eye, but now, should I be getting nervous?

I agree, Flops, it is worrying. When you, and I, were that age there were a LOT LESS murders than there are now and murders in teenage years were almost unheard of. I think that must mean that it is a sign of the times. Fifty or sixty years ago people were hanged for murder and I'm sure that was a big deterrent then but, of course, there is a lot more to it than that now.

I'm not suggesting that we start stringing people up(and anyway people under 18 were not hanged). Society has changed enormously, kids "grow up" much sooner now (but not intellectually) and there seems to be a real lack of discipline in schools and even at home.

However, I still think that the great majority of kids are not a problem and are just like we were - no better or worse. Like a lot of things it's just that tiny minority that spoil it for everyone else. The thing that worries me is that I think the tiny minority is getting slightly larger.

How the hell we change things I have no idea, and that's the sad thing.

 

[murdoch]

Knives crime has got worse, but then so has the way people see it.

Prison is for some an easy option if the do a crime.

And of course if a crime is committed we must observe the accused human rights!

Suggest brining back tougher sentencing & not 2/3 off for being good in prison.

May be the birch or hard labour, this country & goverment has got soft on crime!!

 

[ChristopherP]

Too much violence and not enough fear of /respect for the police.

I got punched on duty the other day. the chap thought it was halarious!

 

[Ian]

I've just read about the poor guy who got stabbed in Sidcup this morning - there seems to be something on the news about teenagers being stabbed/shot every few weeks Yes, of course knifes and guns on the street isn't a good thing at all - but you must be a bit of a nutter to actually consider injuring or killing someone. Even if it was somehow impossible to carry a weapon they'd still be up to no good.

Too much violence and not enough fear of /respect for the police.

Respect definitely yes, but I don't think fear would be a good thing at all.

 

[ChristopherP]

I don't mean fear of per say - i mean fear of the justice - people aren't scared of the police because they know the justice system seems in a state.

 

[floppybootstomp]

Too much violence and not enough fear of /respect for the police.

Seeing that statement from a police officer worries me. Respect, sure, but fear would be a bad thing.

If by fear you mean a would-be criminnal is scared of committing the crime for fear of getting nicked, that may be a good thing, however, depends in which context it's taken. Policing is very much a PR exercise these days, it seems, it's certainly changed since I got beaten up twice by the police and had some drugs planted on me and was prosecuted.

Have to admit though, I did deserve one of those beatings, I committed the crime but they couldn't prove it. It did hurt and the bruises took weeks to fade away.

I didn't deserve the drugs plant though. Although sort of a happy ending there, the Magistrate at Greenwich Court threw the case out, scolding the detective sargeant not to waste his time with such petty offences in future Conditional discharge for me.

I note the above comments and despite these horrible recent happenings I will not fall prey to joining that section of society who are always beying for blood and stiffer sentences. I do think where a crime is proved beyond doubt, harsher sentences should apply but I'm also aware of the thousands of miscarriages of justice committed by the police year by year.

If that was you eating bread and water, wearing a ball & chain and serving twenty years in a hell hole for a crime you didn't commit, how would you feel?

But, FWIW, my views on the whole thing:

1) Sentences are all wrong, there are longer sentences given for property theft than there are for violence. That's wrong. Bank robbery = 20 years, Murder = 10 years. Wrong.

2) Prison should be a punishment and apart from losing one's freedom a prisoner should be made to work - where they are able - an eight hour day to pay for their keep. Further education should be available but only in evenings and at weekends. And yes, counselling/psychiatric help should be made available if it will help. As well as punishment it's also about protecting the rest of society when a prisoner is released.

3) I do actually support the death sentence but only where the crime is proved 100% beyond doubt. But that's a whole other debate.

EDIT: Just seen Chris's last post - fair enough

 

[ChristopherP]

Flops is right - fear of the police as officers would be wrong. The directive at the moment is very much about community focus and the police service need to be approachable and friendly to the public. The balance would be where criminals actually fear the consequences of their actions and the public are happy with how we work and feel that they can talk to us in confidence.

I certainly don't want people to be scared of me when I walk down the street - i'm a nice person i really am - however I feel that respect for police officers is not what it used to be. Perhaps if the justice system was overhauled that might change...

 

[murdoch]

When living in a small Somerset villiage the local pc was the law.
If you crossed the line or did wrong you got nicked it was that simple.
Nowadays the poor guy has to fill in a mountain of paperwork on just stopping someone.
And the local hoodies know this so they play up to it.

That said the local cell in the police house does get rather over croweded whilst the paper work gets filled in & it can take hours before said hoodie is finally released to a (not so) worried parent!

 

[psd99]

Don't be scared of these thugs. Take up some boxing or if you like a martial art. It'll install some self confidence in you and help ease the fear.

But always remember it doesn't matter how good you are or how confident you are at defending yourself if someone has got a knife they will damage you. Just like what Bruce Lee said in the 1970s, which I am so sure you remember.

 

[Taffycat]

I don't think youngsters have changed that much over the generations either, but parameters have. I'm the same age as Flopps, and it seems to me that when we were growing up, there were "rules" and lines that you didn't cross, because if you did, you knew there would be trouble. This either came in the form of a good rollicking, or even - shock horror - a smack.

The rollicking has, in some cases anyway, been replaced by much gentler forms of persuasion, we've all heard, "... Don't do that pleeese..." being repeated over and over, whilst the little one continues to misbehave and turns the situation into a game. Eyebrows are raised, at the mere mention of smacking, followed by mutterings about child abuse. But if a child thinks that there are no consequences to be faced for behaving badly, then as he/she gets older, their attitude can, in some cases, become contemptuous of what they perceive as being non-existant authority. It's not really their fault, we all need some parameters and it's a darned sight easier to learn them during the formative years.

These days, children are much more "adult" in their dress, behaviour, etc., from a much younger age. It used to be a "milestone" of sorts, when little lads like Flopps were eventually allowed to cover their scabby knees (no offence Flopps ) by wearing long pants. Or when girls were allowed their first pair of stylish shoes, or to experiment with makeup. All very tame stuff now, but it made you feel pretty good. There are no "growing up" milestones now, are there? As soon as they can toddle, little ones are kitted out in long pants and resemble tiny versions of their parents - again, no disrespect or offence intended to any who might be reading this. It's simply the way society is these days.

But what is there for younger folk to aspire to now? They kick around in their grown-up clothes, some, are drinking, smoking and having sex with their pubescent peers, experimenting with drugs or substance-sniffing. Those activities may not be legal, but does anything meaningful happen to dissuade them when they're caught indulging..? Not really - speaking from personal experience of incidents witnessed by us, several years ago, in this locality. We hear "Ah well, what can you do... they just want to have fun with their mates, what else is there for them to do....?" But despite the wannabe-grownup behaviour, they are still just kids with immature minds. Just like any child, their first instinct is to lash out at someone who upsets them. But sadly, if they are "armed" (and/or happen to be under the influence of alcohol/drugs) the damage is going to be far worse than a playground brawl.

If respect for others is non-existant at home or school, then I think there is little chance of it being there for anyone else, be they pensioner, police officer or fellow pupil. Few of us "like" absolutely everyone that we meet, but we learn to tolerate, be considerate, polite and all those other attributes that help us to get along peacefully with others. Without them, we would become feral, turning on others we viewed as being rivals, or the old or weak. I think this is partly what we are seeing with some of those very tragic knife attacks.

I'm not a parent, so I'm certainly not claiming to know the answers. Parenting is a heck of a lot different now, to when I was little. But I vividly remember being a child and I honestly don't think I would like to be one now.

Psd99 - with all respect, when you say "take up boxing or a martial art" etc., an elderly man who was using a powered wheelchair, was physically flung over an embankment here, by a gang of youths. I don't think his disability allowed him to use force, or retaliation, of any kind. His physical weakness is what targeted him.

 

[itsme]

I do actually support the death sentence but only where the crime is proved 100% beyond doubt. But that's a whole other debate.

I agree with this!
Now if the LAW/LORDS were to do this or simular>
If a person and or persons were to be found guilty of a hanging offence, sentence to be as follows. The death sentence is pronounced. the offender/offenders to be imprisoned for10 years [ WITH NO EARLY RELEASE] and if no evidence be found to the contrary of the guilty verdict regarding the offence after the 10 year period the death sentence to carried out ASAP.

 

[psd99]

Psd99 - with all respect, when you say "take up boxing or a martial art" etc., an elderly man who was using a powered wheelchair, was physically flung over an embankment here, by a gang of youths. I don't think his disability allowed him to use force, or retaliation, of any kind. His physical weakness is what targeted him.

Good point TC that sort of crime sounds pathetic really that's a scum thing to do. Yes you can't expect anyone of that age and physical ability to defend themselves.

But we must remember the original poster here Mr Flopps who is how old? 57 or something , okay I would say he's old. But he's not in a wheel chair. I know some men who are close to his age and some of the exceed him in age and still good fighters who I wouldn't fancy my chances against.

 

[Andrew C]

It's very worrying indeed. A girl was stabbed to death outside our back gate, the night before my shed was broken into. A few months back a 14 year old girl was raped and taken to A&E while we were in the hospital with my nan. Just last week my sister was at Tesco when a guy was shot down metres away from her.

These are just things i've whitnesed and it's worrying indeed.

 

[floppybootstomp]

It's very worrying indeed. A girl was stabbed to death outside our back gate, the night before my shed was broken into. A few months back a 14 year old girl was raped and taken to A&E while we were in the hospital with my nan. Just last week my sister was at Tesco when a guy was shot down metres away from her.

These are just things i've whitnesed and it's worrying indeed.

Bloody hell

Where do you live?

Remind me to avoid that area

PSD99: So you're calling me old are you, you cheeky bugger

Well.................. it's true, it's true!

And one day if you're very lucky you will be old too.

And here's the rub - you don't actually feel old - it's a bit of a bummer, really

Except that image in the bathroom mirror now resembles your father

 

[Andrew C]

I live in the Anfield area of Liverpool.

Just had a bad couple of months i think lol

 

[nivrip]

And here's the rub - you don't actually feel old - it's a bit of a bummer, really

Except that image in the bathroom mirror now resembles your father

On both points you've hit the nail right on the head.

I see in the paper today that in 2008 there have already been 28 teenage deaths. That is just incredible.

As to the death penalty for murder, it's a very difficult one to call. With the threat of hanging there is a huge deterrent but there will, inevitably, be the odd case of an innocent person being executed - an awful thought. Without a death penalty the number of murders will increase and more innocent people will lose their lives - more I think than would be mistakenly executed. We seem to be in a no win situation.

 

[crazylegs]

Hey there are stabbings and murders all over, there just not as widely publicised as they used to be thats all..Seems the crime is just not a priority for the government at this moment in time.,
If it was they would surely give harsher punishments to those carrying guns and Knives..

Surely if we vote the government in to do our bidding, they should be carrying out our wishes and making punishments for laws broken especially where someone is harmed or killed a lot harsher..

It seems we install them to run us when surely the government are there to do what we tell them, not the other way round..This is where its all wrong and fundamentally because of that what other options are there left when nothing gets done time after time after time..

Thats how revolutions start isn't it..

We can talk all we like but talk is cheap, things only get done when you stand up and take action, I'm not saying a revolution or anything like that.
But there is only power in numbers we all need to stand up and be counted on this one and lobby the government to make gun and knife crime zero tolerance..

As someone who has has first hand experience of a stabbing and murder I have nothing more to say..