Won't strike twice.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Craig Palme
  • Start date Start date
C

Craig Palme

I had a problem with my system after a lightening strike. The power went
out. When I rebooted the system, it froze up. After some tinkering I got it
to reboot and everything is ok. But I've come to the conclusion that I need
an interruptible power supply or at least a good surge protector. Any
recommendations?
 
Craig Palme said:
I had a problem with my system after a lightening strike. The
power went out. When I rebooted the system, it froze up. After
some tinkering I got it to reboot and everything is ok. But I've
come to the conclusion that I need an interruptible power supply
or at least a good surge protector. Any recommendations?
Click to expand...

You don't mention having lost data. If you don't need a battery
backup, less expensive and may be more effective hardware protection
is provided by a line/voltage regulator.
 
Craig Palme said:
I had a problem with my system after a lightening strike. The power went
out. When I rebooted the system, it froze up. After some tinkering I got it
to reboot and everything is ok. But I've come to the conclusion that I need
an interruptible power supply or at least a good surge protector. Any
recommendations?
Click to expand...
I use the APC Back-UPS 1500w. Still using the original battery after 1.5yrs
and it still reads good. I live in an area with a lot of strong storms
(tornado alley) and have not had any electronic device failures since
getting it. The 1500w gives me plenty of time to finish printing or close
what I am doing before the battery goes. I also use one of the same for my
home entertainment center. I have tested it by removing outside AC and it
will give me at least 25mins (never ran it completely down).

Ed
 
John Doe said:
You don't mention having lost data. If you don't need a battery
backup, less expensive and may be more effective hardware protection
is provided by a line/voltage regulator.
Click to expand...

I didn't loose any data, but that always is a risk. Need to be more diligent
on my backups too. I'll look into a line/voltage regulator.
 
Thanks. I'll look at that too.

Ed Medlin said:
I use the APC Back-UPS 1500w. Still using the original battery after
1.5yrs and it still reads good. I live in an area with a lot of strong
storms (tornado alley) and have not had any electronic device failures
since getting it. The 1500w gives me plenty of time to finish printing or
close what I am doing before the battery goes. I also use one of the same
for my home entertainment center. I have tested it by removing outside AC
and it will give me at least 25mins (never ran it completely down).

Ed
Click to expand...
 
Two simple rules define an ineffective protector. 1) No dedicated
wire to earth. 2) Manufacturer avoids all discussion about earthing.
A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. So that APC
product does not even claim (in numerical specifications) to provide
protection from each type of surge. But show me. Show me numbers for
protection from each type of transient. APC makes only vague claims on
color glossy sales brochures so that myths will promote surge
protection.

The UPS is for data protection from blackouts and extreme brownouts.
Such electrical events do not damage electronics hardware.

Effective protection earths before destructive surges can enter a
building. All appliances already have efffective protection.
Protection that is overwhelmed if a destructive transient is not
earthed before entering a building. Effective surge protection is a
'whole house' protector with a connection to THE most critical
component in a protection 'system': earth ground.

Meanwhile, if power cycled on and off, well, computers also have
another internal protection function. That protective lockout is
cleared only when power cord is removed from wall receptacle. Any
hardware protection that exists adjacent to a comptuer is already
inside that computer. Internal protection that assumes you have
earthed a 'whole house' protector back at the circuit breaker box.
Otherwise computer internal protection may be overwhelmed; computer
damaged.

Effective 'whole house' protectors are from responsible manufactures
such as Siemens, Intermatic, Cutler-Hammer, Polyphaser, GE, and
Leviton. Purchased in Home Depot, Lowes, or electrical supply houses.
Building's earthing must meet or exceed post 1990 National Electrical
Code requirements. Both for effective surge protection. Plug-in
protector manufacturers will not even discus this for obvious reasons.

Decide if you need data protection from blackouts and brownouts, or
need hardware protection from surges. They are different electrical
events that require different solutions.
 
Troll alert.

If you do a search in the USENET archives for the text string

"A protector is only as effective as its earth ground"

In all 84 resulting threads, that assertion was made by w_tom.
Apparently he searches USENET for power supply issues and posts his
pet theory, nobody really knows why. But the threads in the
sci.electronics groups can make for interesting reading, especially
replies by intelligent authors who don't know w_tom and are a little
agitated by his bullheadedness.
 
If he finally read professional papers rather than posting insults,
then he would know why a protector is only as effective as its earth
ground. He does not know. So John Doe repeatedly posts insults.

Responsible sources cite earthing as necessary to effective hardware
protection. A recommendation from IEEE Red Book (IEEE Std 141):
In actual practice, lightning protection is achieve by the
process of interception of lightning produced surges,
diverting them to ground, and by altering their
associated wave shapes.
Click to expand...

Effective hardware protection requires a short connection to earth
which is not found in a line/voltage regulator.

A UPS provides data protection from blackouts and extreme brownouts.
Such electrical events do not damage system hardware. Hardware
protection is not provided by a line/voltage regulator because hardware
even inside the system makes low voltage irrelevant to hardware. Low
voltage and blackouts can damage data; not hardware.

Craig's interruptible power supply provides data protection. Craig's
surge protector provides hardware protection. Each solution requires a
different device. One uses a battery. The other makes a short
connection to earth as defined by IEEE Red Book - and so many other
sources.
 
w_tom said:
If he finally read professional papers rather than posting
insults, then he would know why a protector is only as effective
as its earth ground. He does not know. So John Doe repeatedly
posts insults.
Click to expand...

There is no need to add insult. In fact, you search USENET for posts
about surge suppressors so you can jump in and harp on your
apparently silly ideas. I'm sure you enjoy non-technical groups
most, like you did today in (rec.food.cooking).

"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with
bullshit."
 
Had this discussion on here and there seems to be some disagreement but I
tend to believe my local electrician.

I had a lightning strike also, it hit either in the road or front yard
because four houses were affected, mine being the worse. After the
lightning struck, I heard a loud boom, checked around the house and the
flexible tube that feeds gas to the hot water heater exploded and ignited.

Also, the garbage disposal, garage door opener, and washing machine no
longer worked. My electrician told me that lightning is unpredictable and
will sometimes arc (jump around) and do the damage it did to my house.

I thought my ups protected my computer but others here say no. I got rid of
the ups because it did not work anymore but the computer was fine. Also my
router blew out.

A ups is good for power loss but most here feel it does nothing to protect
against extreme surges.

-g
 
Geoff said:
Had this discussion on here and there seems to be some
disagreement but I tend to believe my local electrician.

I had a lightning strike also, it hit either in the road or front
yard because four houses were affected, mine being the worse.
After the lightning struck, I heard a loud boom, checked around
the house and the flexible tube that feeds gas to the hot water
heater exploded and ignited.

Also, the garbage disposal, garage door opener, and washing
machine no longer worked. My electrician told me that lightning
is unpredictable and will sometimes arc (jump around) and do the
damage it did to my house.
Click to expand...

If you want to learn about surge suppression and lightning strikes,
do an author history on w_tom. Don't read Tom's posts or the
gullible who smile and say "thank you", read the
intelligent/educated author's replies. It's informative and
sometimes humorous.

I just did some of that. The electromagnetic pulse (EMP) might have
destroyed some stuff, not just the lightning itself. So it might not
have mattered what protective equipment you had in your house.

Apparently sometimes Tom gives bad and potentially dangerous advice,
but IMO the education/entertainment value makes up for that.
I thought my ups protected my computer but others here say no.
Click to expand...

Who are you talking about?
I got rid of the ups because it did not work anymore but the
computer was fine. Also my router blew out.
Click to expand...

Was it wired/connected through a telephone line surge suppressor?

I lost a couple of dial-up modems before connecting through a modem
line surge suppressor.
A ups is good for power loss but most here feel it does nothing to
protect against extreme surges.
Click to expand...

Going with so little information, the surge suppresser in your UPS
self-destructed and saved your computer. I would have opened it up
to see whether the MOVs melted or blew up.

A surge suppressor is definitely recommended.

For what it's worth. Personally, I like the idea of a voltage/line
regulator, instead of a battery backup, I guess it just depends on
whether you need time to save important files to disk.

Good luck.
 
w_tom said:
If he finally read professional papers rather than posting insults,
then he would know why a protector is only as effective as its earth
ground.
Click to expand...

And if you knew anything about electronics you'd know that is factually false.

<snip>
 
A surge suppressor is definitely recommended.

Such as a Varistor..... a Voltage ajustable resistor, bit like
thermistor, these don't have to be earthed, any excess voltage thes
will clamp the voltage to a safe level in a matter o
micro-seconds....

One problem as mentioned is induction, a large discharge a mile awa
could create enough energy in overhead wire's.... telephone wir
included to cause severe voltage gradients...

Think you'll find UPS are mainly for minute disruption in supplies
the more you pay the longer they will last without having t
re-charge the internal battery and the more Power they provide....

Ups are designed to maintain the supply during disruption..... that
is the chief purpose.... whether these contain 'voltage conditioning
such as clamping etc is another question.

Dav
 
John said:
"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with
bullshit."
Click to expand...

The lurker is warned about those such as John Doe who repeatedly post
without a single technical fact. He cannot dispute a direct quote from
IEEE Red Book for reasons that others note. Again, he posts insults
and not one technical fact.

Meanwhile from IEEE Red Book, a statement that directly contradicts
multiple John Doe's posts:
 
The fact that lighting was conducting inside the building suggests your
building earthing was defective. Anything that was making a path to
earth was damaged. For starter, every lurker is strongly advised to
have building earthing upgraded to post 1990 National Electrical Code
requirements. That is minimally sufficient earthing. Then every
incoming wire must make a connection to earthing - either by direct
connection (ie cable, dish TV) or via a 'whole house' protectors (AC
electric, phone). Telco provides a 'whole house' protector for free
because it is so inexpensive and so effective. But again, a telephone
line protector will only be as effective as its earth ground - which is
why that phone line protector must make the 'less than 10 foot'
connection to earth. That protector will only be as effective as its
earthing which is why protection is defined by quality of and
connection to earthing.

What happened when lightning found an unacceptable path to earth:
"flexible tube that feeds gas to the hot water heater exploded and
ignited". Just another reason why a building's single point earthing
electrode must be a best path to earth. Lightning that was earthed
where wires enter a building means lightning would not conduct to earth
via that flexible tube.

IEEE Red Book (Std 141) defines lightning protection:
In actual practice, lightning protection is achieve by the
process of interception of lightning produced surges,
diverting them to ground, and by altering their
associated wave shapes.
Click to expand...

Lightning is not capricious. Lightning is statistically predictable.
Lightning seeks earth ground. Noting capricious about that. Once
inside a building, then many unexpected and conductive electrical paths
exist. After damage occurs, a human then says, "Of course." I must
enhance the building's earthing; must connect every incoming utility
'less than 10 feet' to a superior and single point earth ground.
Damage is averted by earthing before lightning can enter a building.

Does building earthing, at minimum, meet post 1990 NEC requirements?
If not, then household protection starts by upgrading / enhancing that
earthing. Protection is only as effective as its earth ground - so that
lightning also is not conducted to earth by a flexible gas tube.
 
I had a problem with my system after a lightening strike. The power went
out. When I rebooted the system, it froze up. After some tinkering I got it
to reboot and everything is ok. But I've come to the conclusion that I need
an interruptible power supply or at least a good surge protector. Any
recommendations?
Click to expand...

If you can find a fool-proof method of lightning protection, let me know.
Lightning is one of the least understood phenomona in the world of
electricity. Be assured however that it *will* find the shortest path to
ground no matter how much it has to destroy in order to get there. One of
the most commonly used devices used for 'non-direct' hits is the MOV
(Metal Oxide Varistor). I normally use the 130 Volt units for computers.
These serve well for voltage spikes on the AC line.

When dealing with lightning however, the best protection I can suggest is
the crossing of the fingers and a short prayer. Just in case.

--
________________________________________________________
H. Seldon

I wish there was an "Intelligence" control on the TV set.
There's a "Brightness" control, but it doesn't work.

VectorLinux SoHo 5.1
 
The lurker is warned about those such as John Doe who repeatedly
post
without a single technical fact.
Click to expand...



"Now I understand!
You're not really here to have a civil, intelligent, and informative
discussion about lightning and surge protection.
I think discussing this topic is really a veiled way for you to
berate and insult others, as you have been doing so in many other
Usenet groups on this very same topic. You must actively do a Usenet
search for this topic, only to then jump in to spew your virulent
diatribe. lol, very amusing........."


(e-mail address removed) (Cliff Huprich) wrote:

"w_tom,
A brief search finds that you have posted about 300 times to a great
many newsgroups in the last two months on the subject of lightning
and "earthen grounds" but nothing before that."



"Heh. For those with free time, search for w_tom on www.deja.com.
He has quite the history of posting the same thing over and over."
 
John said:
"w_tom,
A brief search finds that you have posted about 300 times to a great
many newsgroups in the last two months on the subject of lightning
and "earthen grounds" but nothing before that."
Click to expand...

John Doe - a routine sampling of your responses is devoid of
electrical parameters, industry citations, or useful information. Your
posts are mostly sarcasms and personal insults. A quote from the IEEE
Red Book was cited. John Doe ignored it. Why? He understands a Rush
Limbaugh concept of using personal attacks to avoid technical reality.

Meanwhile professional citations demonstrate effective protection
from direct lightning strikes:
http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/337/docserve.asp
This technote is instended to provide information on basic grounding
techniques that will help prevent inverter damage due to lightning. ...
The first step in inverter protection is to make sure that all equipment
in the system is physically grounded at the same location.
Click to expand...

Figure 1 demonstrates of bad, multi-point grounding. Figure 2 is
single point ground. But again, and contrary to what John Doe posts,
effective proetction is about earthing.

Or http://www.telebyteusa.com/primer/ch6.htm
Conceptually, lightning protection devices are switches to ground. ...
Thus, redirecting the threatening surge on a path-of-least
resistance (impedance) to ground where it is absorbed.
Any lightning protection device must be composed of two
"subsystems," a switch which is essentially some type of switching
circuitry and a good ground connection-to allow dissipation of
the surge energy.
Click to expand...

Or TN CR 002 The Need for Coordinated Protection:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/fep/technotes/tncr002.pdf
The six interdependent disciplines that form our protection
plan are:
...
Click to expand...
2) Conduct the energy safely to ground
3) Dissipate energy into ground
4) Equipotentially bond all grounds
...
Click to expand...

Even buried wires will carry destructive transients into a building.
But again, these are industry professionals teaching reality rather
than posting personal attacks.

No way around reality no matter how many times John Doe denies it.
Effective protection from a direct lightning strike is about earthing.
Instead of learning facts, John Doe would attack the messenger? Why
does he care how many times an effective and well proven solution is
posted? Because he has been caught and exposed previously outrightly
lying. His responses are based in a personal agenda; not in technical
reality. He did not understand basic concepts and was challenged. His
posts are now classic of one taking revenge rather than contributing
for greater knowledge.

Effective protectors are about earthing direct lighting strikes
before that transient can to appliances.
 
Protection from lightning was routine 50 years ago where humans
learned basic concepts. Why does a $multi-million telephone company
computer, connected to overhead wires everywhere in town, not shutdown
for every thunderstorm? Why do commercial radio and TV broadcasters
atop the Empire State Building suffer typically 25 direct lightning
strikes and continue operation uninterrupted? Because protection from
direct lighting strikes is well understood and routinely avoided.
Since many suffer damage using grossly undersized plug-in protectors,
so we have myths about protection not possible. Instead we consult
testimony from professionals:
http://www.harvardrepeater.org/news/lightning.html
Well I assert, from personal and broadcast experience spanning
30 years, that you can design a system that will handle *direct
lightning strikes* on a routine basis. It takes some planning and
careful layout, but it's not hard, nor is it overly expensive. At
WXIA-TV, my other job, we take direct lightning strikes nearly
every time there's a thunderstorm. Our downtime from such
strikes is almost non-existant. The last time we went down from
a strike, it was due to a strike on the power company's lines
knocking *them* out, ...
Since my disasterous strike, I've been campaigning vigorously
to educate amateurs that you *can* avoid damage from direct
strikes. The belief that there's no protection from direct strike
damage is *myth*. ...
The keys to effective lightning protection are surprisingly
simple, and surprisingly less than obvious. Of course you
*must* have a single point ground system that eliminates all
ground loops. And you must present a low *impedance* path
for the energy to go. That's most generally a low *inductance*
path rather than just a low ohm DC path.
Click to expand...

Some pray. Others learn well proven science. If you suffer damage,
then learn where your earthing is insufficient or where wires enter the
building without first a short connection that that earthing - either
by direct wire or via a 'whole house' type protector.

Protection from direct lightning strikes is so routine as to be
considered human failure. If damage occurs, the human should learn
from and correct that human created mistake. Earthing is so essential
to effective transistor protection that Ufer grounds are routinely
installed in new buildings with effective protection. How did an
Orange County FL stop suffering damage from lightning? They repaired
defective earthing:
http://www.psihq.com/AllCopper.htm

Protection from direct lightning strikes is routine when the human
learns about and installs effective earthing. Taht also means every
incoming utility wire in every cable should make a 'less than 10 foot'
connection to earth. A concept originally demonstrated by Ben Franklin
in 1752.
 
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