wireless network / ethernet bridge question

[Pete]

Hi

I'm looking to set up a wireless network and I'm a bit lost.

My PC has a 2MB connection to Virgin Media(Telewest) via a DSL Surfboard
SB3100 cable modem. I also have an imac G3 400mhz with an ethernet socket
that wants to share the internet access.

I was told the best thing would be to get a wireless router and plug it into
my existing cable modem, then connect the router via cable to my PC. Then
get a wireless ethernet bridge for the iMac to connect to the wireless
router.

The thing is that from a quick look around, wireless ethernet bridges seem
to be quite expsensive at the moment and it seems I can get a "Buffalo
Airstation G54 Wireless Cable/DSL Smart Router " for the same price if not
less. So i thought why not get 2 of them, connect one to the iMac, one to
the PC and let them chat. The marketing information on the Buffalo Router
states "In addition to fast wireless performance, WHR-G54S features a
built-in external switch between wireless router and wireless bridge access
point."

Would someone please confirm that this is saying what I think it is saying?
Does this mean I could buy 2 of these and connected one to the existing
cable modem as a wireless router and connected the other one to the iMac but
flick a switch on trhe imac router so that it acts as a wireless ethernet
bridge? I am assuming the ethernet bridge/router would work without me
having to install or configure anything on the iMac.

I Hope what I have said makes sense as I'm not a network expert

Would someone also confirm that I can physicaly connect my pc to the router
rather than have a wirelesss connection?

Thanks

Pete


Here's the marketing blurb:

The Buffalo AirStation G54 Wireless Cable/DSL Smart Router combines the 125
High Speed Mode wireless performance with Buffalo's AirStation One-Touch
Secure System (AOSS).

This router increases "real world" wireless performance up to 35% compared
to a standard 802.11g Router and automatically detects and configures your
Cable or DSL Internet connection. Security features include WPA, WEP,
Privacy Separator, Intrusion Detector, and SPI firewall.

In addition to fast wireless performance, WHR-G54S features a built-in
external switch between wireless router and wireless bridge access point.
The combination of speed, security, and push-button setup of wireless
connections and Internet, makes the Buffalo AirStation G54 Wireless
Cable/DSL Smart Router the ideal choice for your wireless network.

 

[kony]

Hi

I'm looking to set up a wireless network and I'm a bit lost.

First is to define what you need, like range, security, etc.

My PC has a 2MB connection to Virgin Media(Telewest) via a DSL Surfboard
SB3100 cable modem. I also have an imac G3 400mhz with an ethernet socket
that wants to share the internet access.

You mean you want it to? Because in general it would
probably rather be connected to a router to share internet
acess, which is more reliable, more secure, and relieves the
burden of having to have that system running for some other
to use the internet connection.

Fortunately, wifi "routers" which are actually combo devices
of router/switch/access-point, are perhaps the most common
and oddly enough, often no more expensive than devices which
only have a fraction of the features.

I was told the best thing would be to get a wireless router and plug it into
my existing cable modem, then connect the router via cable to my PC. Then
get a wireless ethernet bridge for the iMac to connect to the wireless
router.

Modem->Wifi Router-> Wired and wireless systems.

Whether you want your PC or iMac to connect by wire or
wirelessly to the wifi router is up to you. You need no
wireless ethernet bridge per se, just a wireless network
adapter in each system that will connect wirelessly instead
of using wires.

You "could", in theory, get a wireless bridge to connect the
iMac instead of a more typical PCI or USB wifi card, but
unless you have a very long distance or very noisey 2.4GHz
environment (like a lot of very nearby neighbors in an
apartment building also using wifi), you aren't likely to
need the bridge, the benefit to it is mostly that with an
extrenal bridge type device you have a stronger send and
receive signal - but most people don't need it.

The thing is that from a quick look around, wireless ethernet bridges seem
to be quite expsensive at the moment and it seems I can get a "Buffalo
Airstation G54 Wireless Cable/DSL Smart Router " for the same price if not
less.

Many wifi routers support bridging. It seems price is
mainly a function of sales volume, that by buying the
multifunction device (wifi router) that is most popular, you
get it all for same or lower cost.

So i thought why not get 2 of them, connect one to the iMac, one to
the PC and let them chat.

To me this makes no sense, you should just use one as a
router and do as mentioned previously, a PCI or USB card.
"IF" you wanted to use them in bridged mode, I'd set one up
as the router, not shared from the PC, then set the other up
as a bridge to it.

This is just for typical usage, you don't mention any unique
requirements.

The marketing information on the Buffalo Router
states "In addition to fast wireless performance, WHR-G54S features a
built-in external switch between wireless router and wireless bridge access
point."

That router will do the task, yes. It will be even more
versatile if you flashed it to run "DD-WRT" (Google will
find info), though DD-WRT is a bit advanced, the features
might be overwhelming for someone not accustomed to
configuring a wifi network.

Also look into the Buffalo WHR-HP-G54, which is essentially
the same thing but with a better antenna and higher signal
strength. It paired with DD-WRT is a very powerful
combination, but the stronger the signal the more important
security is - otherwise you might find neighbors a house or
two, or several walls away, can access it too.

Would someone please confirm that this is saying what I think it is saying?
Does this mean I could buy 2 of these and connected one to the existing
cable modem as a wireless router and connected the other one to the iMac but
flick a switch on trhe imac router so that it acts as a wireless ethernet
bridge?

You can buy two and set it up like that, but that's not what
I thought you meant when I wrote "to me this makes no
sense..." above as you'd written to connect one to the PC,
as if you were going to use the PC for the internet
connection sharing still, not using either router as a
router but only as two wifi bridges.

Yes you should get at least one wifi router like the
WHR-G54S, and then you can either get a second one and use
the second one as a bridge, or what I'd suggested above,
that unless you expect atypically low performance due to
some problem on-site, just get a PCI or USB wifi network
adapter for the iMac (if there isn't one built in already,
this i don't know).

I am assuming the ethernet bridge/router would work without me
having to install or configure anything on the iMac.

Depends a bit on how it's currently configured, I plead
ignorance to whether it will automatically reconfig itself
to do this, but in general it is possible, not unlikely.

However, as mentioned above you probably dont need a bridge
configuration, bridges are more often to connect two
networks, not just add one PC or MAC... for each individual
system on a wifi network it is more typical, and usually
cheaper and less intrusive (due to smaller networking device
than a router is at the system/desk) to just get a wifi
network adapter. Since the WHR-G54S supports up to 802.11g,
keep that in mind. Well it might support 108Mbps mode with
other Buffalo adapters, that I don't recall, but you will at
some point have to decide if you want to spend more money
for a MIMO type with longer range, or a pre-N with higher
speed & range. To a certain extent speed depends on signal
strength, getting a 54Mbps capable router means only that
you get near(er) 54MBps (actually lower but as a starting
reference point...) but the poorer the signal, the more the
speed drops. For internet access and small file copying on
the LAN this will not be a problem but if you had large
files, like multimedia (video) sharing ongoing between the
two systems, 802.11g is a little weak/slow for that, in
which case I'd look at a "pre-N" router and network adapter
for the iMac.

I Hope what I have said makes sense as I'm not a network expert

Would someone also confirm that I can physicaly connect my pc to the router
rather than have a wirelesss connection?

Yes absolutely, the router has a wired ethernet switch built
in, you can connect (it's either 4 or 5, I forget which)
cables to other systems or even other switches then even
more other systems to expand a larger wired network from it,
in addition to the wireless clients that connect.

You might check out some basic wifi networking tutorials,
Google will find some. I suppose the main point I can
confirm as to your questions is "yes" any of the things
mentioned are possible with that router. It's primary
drawback is that it's only 80211g, not pre-N or MIMO, but
these latter two cost more and you may not (or might, we
can't know what speed or longer ranges you might need for
your uses) need the extra speed. "Most" people just setting
up a basic wifi network to get internet access and light
file sharing can do so fine with that router. Typically the
weaker link is the networking adpater used at the client end
(the iMac), some have a lot of walls or noisey environment
and will have more problems or lower speed than others.

To get the maximum possible performance at any reasonable
price, you would get two pre-N routers, and add-on
directional antennas. This is a roughly $300 proposition,
versus about $40 USB for the WHR-G54S plus $20 for a 802.11g
PCI or USB network adapter for the iMac. Then again, I
don't know how much more an adapter might cost for iMac
versus PCs. Two WHR-G54S is not a bad idea, I didnt mean to
discourage that, it's just a little bit more expensive.

So really it's do-able many different ways, it's just up to
you to decide which you need.

Here's the marketing blurb:

<snipped out>

I have a WHR-HP-G54, it does fine but I dont even remember
the menu settings from the Buffalo firmware as I immediately
flashed mine to DD-WRT. I vaguely recall people saying it
worked ok with the Buffalo firmware but to me it is better
to have more features even if they're not *all* used.

 

[Pete]

First is to define what you need, like range, security, etc.



You mean you want it to? Because in general it would
probably rather be connected to a router to share internet
acess, which is more reliable, more secure, and relieves the
burden of having to have that system running for some other
to use the internet connection.

Fortunately, wifi "routers" which are actually combo devices
of router/switch/access-point, are perhaps the most common
and oddly enough, often no more expensive than devices which
only have a fraction of the features.



Modem->Wifi Router-> Wired and wireless systems.

Whether you want your PC or iMac to connect by wire or
wirelessly to the wifi router is up to you. You need no
wireless ethernet bridge per se, just a wireless network
adapter in each system that will connect wirelessly instead
of using wires.

You "could", in theory, get a wireless bridge to connect the
iMac instead of a more typical PCI or USB wifi card, but
unless you have a very long distance or very noisey 2.4GHz
environment (like a lot of very nearby neighbors in an
apartment building also using wifi), you aren't likely to
need the bridge, the benefit to it is mostly that with an
extrenal bridge type device you have a stronger send and
receive signal - but most people don't need it.





Many wifi routers support bridging. It seems price is
mainly a function of sales volume, that by buying the
multifunction device (wifi router) that is most popular, you
get it all for same or lower cost.




To me this makes no sense, you should just use one as a
router and do as mentioned previously, a PCI or USB card.
"IF" you wanted to use them in bridged mode, I'd set one up
as the router, not shared from the PC, then set the other up
as a bridge to it.

This is just for typical usage, you don't mention any unique
requirements.



That router will do the task, yes. It will be even more
versatile if you flashed it to run "DD-WRT" (Google will
find info), though DD-WRT is a bit advanced, the features
might be overwhelming for someone not accustomed to
configuring a wifi network.

Also look into the Buffalo WHR-HP-G54, which is essentially
the same thing but with a better antenna and higher signal
strength. It paired with DD-WRT is a very powerful
combination, but the stronger the signal the more important
security is - otherwise you might find neighbors a house or
two, or several walls away, can access it too.




You can buy two and set it up like that, but that's not what
I thought you meant when I wrote "to me this makes no
sense..." above as you'd written to connect one to the PC,
as if you were going to use the PC for the internet
connection sharing still, not using either router as a
router but only as two wifi bridges.

Yes you should get at least one wifi router like the
WHR-G54S, and then you can either get a second one and use
the second one as a bridge, or what I'd suggested above,
that unless you expect atypically low performance due to
some problem on-site, just get a PCI or USB wifi network
adapter for the iMac (if there isn't one built in already,
this i don't know).




Depends a bit on how it's currently configured, I plead
ignorance to whether it will automatically reconfig itself
to do this, but in general it is possible, not unlikely.

However, as mentioned above you probably dont need a bridge
configuration, bridges are more often to connect two
networks, not just add one PC or MAC... for each individual
system on a wifi network it is more typical, and usually
cheaper and less intrusive (due to smaller networking device
than a router is at the system/desk) to just get a wifi
network adapter. Since the WHR-G54S supports up to 802.11g,
keep that in mind. Well it might support 108Mbps mode with
other Buffalo adapters, that I don't recall, but you will at
some point have to decide if you want to spend more money
for a MIMO type with longer range, or a pre-N with higher
speed & range. To a certain extent speed depends on signal
strength, getting a 54Mbps capable router means only that
you get near(er) 54MBps (actually lower but as a starting
reference point...) but the poorer the signal, the more the
speed drops. For internet access and small file copying on
the LAN this will not be a problem but if you had large
files, like multimedia (video) sharing ongoing between the
two systems, 802.11g is a little weak/slow for that, in
which case I'd look at a "pre-N" router and network adapter
for the iMac.


Yes absolutely, the router has a wired ethernet switch built
in, you can connect (it's either 4 or 5, I forget which)
cables to other systems or even other switches then even
more other systems to expand a larger wired network from it,
in addition to the wireless clients that connect.

You might check out some basic wifi networking tutorials,
Google will find some. I suppose the main point I can
confirm as to your questions is "yes" any of the things
mentioned are possible with that router. It's primary
drawback is that it's only 80211g, not pre-N or MIMO, but
these latter two cost more and you may not (or might, we
can't know what speed or longer ranges you might need for
your uses) need the extra speed. "Most" people just setting
up a basic wifi network to get internet access and light
file sharing can do so fine with that router. Typically the
weaker link is the networking adpater used at the client end
(the iMac), some have a lot of walls or noisey environment
and will have more problems or lower speed than others.

To get the maximum possible performance at any reasonable
price, you would get two pre-N routers, and add-on
directional antennas. This is a roughly $300 proposition,
versus about $40 USB for the WHR-G54S plus $20 for a 802.11g
PCI or USB network adapter for the iMac. Then again, I
don't know how much more an adapter might cost for iMac
versus PCs. Two WHR-G54S is not a bad idea, I didnt mean to
discourage that, it's just a little bit more expensive.

Wow, thanks for the detailed response. I have checked out the higer speed
version of this device and decided i will go for that model if I decide to
go ahead with the plan.

To clarify; this is what I want to do; buy 2 of the WHR-HP-G54 wireless
routers, connect one to the existing cable modem as a wireless router and
connect the other one to the ethernet port on the iMac but flick a switch on
trhe imac router so that it acts as a wireless ethernet bridge

With the old iMac I have there is only one expansion slot for a dedicated
wireless adapter no other PCI slots or anything like that. I have been told
these specialized wireless cards are really expensive so essentially there
is no way to add wireless to the imac internally unless I want to pay a lot.
It may be able to use a USB device but I have also been told that there are
compatibility problems with these old iMacs. Certainly looking around on
ebay i can not find any USB wireless devices which explicitly state that
they support apple macs and you can bet that if you do find one it will be a
lot more expensive than the PC equivilant. This is why i was advised to get
a wireless ethernet bridge. It may be that all the USB devices would work, I
don't know but if they do why wouldn't the specs say so when they do say
they are compatible with 98, ME XP etc.

My logic in buying two WHR-HP-G54 wireless routers units instead of say, one
WHR-HP-G54 wireless router and one of the Buffalo WLI-TX4-G54HP Ethernet
controllers is as follows:
1) I have found a supplier who can sell me two WHR-HP-G54 wireless routers
for £10 UK less than I can buy one WHR-HP-G54 Wireless router and a
WLI-TX4-G54HP Ethernet controller. So it's the cheaper option.

2) I don't know that much about networking but it looks to me like the
WHR-HP-G54 wireless router has more features and flexibility than the
WLI-TX4-G54HP Ethernet controller and therefore may prove to be more future
proof / useful especially if I change the network configuration in the
future.

3) I assume that when the external switch is flicked on the WHR-HP-G54
wireless router to turn it into a wireless Ethernet bridge, it will
essentially become something like a WLI-TX4-G54HP Ethernet controller.

Does what I am doing make more sense now? I may as well get the more fully
featured hardware especially if I can pay less for it and it will do the
same job, have a stronger signal and give me more future upgarde options.

Will it work thought?

Thansk

pete

 

[kony]

Does what I am doing make more sense now? I may as well get the more fully
featured hardware especially if I can pay less for it and it will do the
same job, have a stronger signal and give me more future upgarde options.

Will it work thought?

Yes, it should... it might be silly to mention now as I
probably overlooked it, but I'm also assuming the iMac has a
wired ethernet adapter in it already to connect to the
Buffalo router #2.

 

[Mike Walsh]

You don't need a bridge. All you need is a router, which will include a firewall and 4 port switch. If you want the imac G3 to have wireless access you need a wireless router, and a wireless NIC for the imac G3. If you can't install a wireless NIC in the imac G3 you could use two Buffalo WHR-G54S routers and use the bridge feature instead.
I highly recommend the Buffalo WHR-G54S router. It has excellent performance and stability. It has a bridge feature which I, like most people, don't use.
You can install a router and everything will work using the default settings; but the minimum you should do with a wireless network is enable encryption. The Buffalo WHR-G54S can use anything from 64 bit WEP, the least secure but adequate for most people; to WPA with EAS encryption, the most secure.

 

[Pete]

Yes, it should... it might be silly to mention now as I
probably overlooked it, but I'm also assuming the iMac has a
wired ethernet adapter in it already to connect to the
Buffalo router #2.

Thanks Kony

The iMac does have a built in ethernet adapter port. I have plugged it
directly into my cable modem and it went on the net fine.

Bearing in mind I can get the higher speed buffalo wireless router cheaper
than the ethernet bridge, is there any reason not to do what I have
suggested? It gives me the option of having a wireless router or a bridge in
the future.

regards

Pete

 

[Pete]

You don't need a bridge. All you need is a router, which will include a
firewall and 4 port switch. If you want the imac G3 to have wireless
access you need a wireless router, and a wireless NIC for the imac G3.

If you can't install a wireless NIC in the imac G3 you could use two Buffalo
WHR-G54S routers and use the bridge feature instead.

I need lots of reassurance b4 I order...this would definately work then?

I highly recommend the Buffalo WHR-G54S router. It has excellent
performance and stability. It has a bridge feature which I, like most
people, don't use.
You can install a router and everything will work using the default
settings; but the minimum you should do with a wireless network is enable
encryption. The Buffalo WHR-G54S can use anything from 64 bit WEP, the
least secure but adequate for most people; to WPA with EAS encryption, the
most secure.

Thanks Mike

I'm looking at getting the WHR-HP-G54 Buffalo wireless router now, it's
almost the same but better signals.

Everyone seems suprised that I'm going to buy a wireless router and use it
as a bridge, surely this makes sense if I can buy if cheaper than a same
speed bridge from the same company?

Assuming all devices support the most robust level of encryption, why would
someone not use the highest level? Does it reduce bandwidth / speed?

I heard i could enter all the mac addresses on my network and block anything
else too, wouldn't this be sufficient to block intruders on it's own or can
these be forged?

I was going to enable the firewall, what else should i do with this router
to be super secure bearing in mind if i get them I will use the auto
configure AOSS feature.

Regards

pete

 

[Mike Walsh]

If you can't install a wireless NIC in the imac G3 you could use two Buffalo
WHR-G54S routers and use the bridge feature instead.

I need lots of reassurance b4 I order...this would definately work then?

It will work, but you should be aware that if you use the wireless port for a bridge it will not be available for use as a normal wireless access point.

Thanks Mike

I'm looking at getting the WHR-HP-G54 Buffalo wireless router now, it's
almost the same but better signals.

Everyone seems suprised that I'm going to buy a wireless router and use it
as a bridge, surely this makes sense if I can buy if cheaper than a same
speed bridge from the same company?

A consumer router includes a router, firewall, four port wired switch, wireless access point, and in some cases one of the ports can be used as a bridge. Sometimes just one of these components e.g. a wireless access point or a switch with a bridge port can cost more than a complete router.

Assuming all devices support the most robust level of encryption, why would
someone not use the highest level? Does it reduce bandwidth / speed?

Many devices don't support WPA. Some people use 64 bit WEP because it is supported by all wireless devices and is easiest to configure. I have not seen any difference in speed, but EAS encryption is supposed to be the fastest.

I heard i could enter all the mac addresses on my network and block anything
else too, wouldn't this be sufficient to block intruders on it's own or can
these be forged?

Many routers have features that will block all except specified MAC addresses. It is theoretically possible for someone to guess the correct MAC address, but it is also theoretically possible for them to guess your encryption key. If you are truly paranoid you can use a MAC filter and a 400+ bit WPA key.

I was going to enable the firewall, what else should i do with this router
to be super secure bearing in mind if i get them I will use the auto
configure AOSS feature.

I don't know what AOSS includes because I always manually configure routers. On the first configuration page select advanced and go down the list. The minimum you should do is use wireless encryption and a password to access the router configuration.

 

[Mike Walsh]

If you can't install a wireless NIC in the imac G3 you could use two Buffalo
WHR-G54S routers and use the bridge feature instead.

I need lots of reassurance b4 I order...this would definately work then?


Thanks Mike

I'm looking at getting the WHR-HP-G54 Buffalo wireless router now, it's
almost the same but better signals.

Everyone seems suprised that I'm going to buy a wireless router and use it
as a bridge, surely this makes sense if I can buy if cheaper than a same
speed bridge from the same company?

Assuming all devices support the most robust level of encryption, why would
someone not use the highest level? Does it reduce bandwidth / speed?

I heard i could enter all the mac addresses on my network and block anything
else too, wouldn't this be sufficient to block intruders on it's own or can
these be forged?

I was going to enable the firewall, what else should i do with this router
to be super secure bearing in mind if i get them I will use the auto
configure AOSS feature.

Regards

pete

 

[kony]

If you can't install a wireless NIC in the imac G3 you could use two Buffalo
WHR-G54S routers and use the bridge feature instead.

I suppose we're just wondering why you can't install a
wireless adapter on a G3, as others have managed to... for
example,
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16833314011

 

[Pete]

I suppose we're just wondering why you can't install a
wireless adapter on a G3, as others have managed to... for
example,
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16833314011

Hi Kony

I am not a mac expert so I asked about networking in alt.comp.sys.mac and I
was advised to use a wireless bridge for the following reasons:

1) the only wireless card that can be used internally fits into a
specialized slot and costs a fortue - certainly more than a wireless bridge
2) It may be that most USB devices would work on the iMac but almost none of
them state that they will work. It's for an old machine; 1999 model and I'm
using one of the latest operating systems on it which may mean that drivers
are even harder to find.

That's about it.

Pete

 

[Pete]

It will work, but you should be aware that if you use the wireless port
for a bridge it will not be available for use as a normal wireless access
point.

That shouldn't be a problema as I can use the other router that's connected
to the cable modem for that right?

Thanks mike you have been a great help

regards

Pete

 

[Mike Walsh]

It seems that I was wrong about not being able to use the normal access point. I had thought that to use the bridge feature both routers had to be configured for bridge mode. According to the manual only the router connected to the imac would have the switch set in the bridge position. The router connected to the DSL would be set in the auto (normal) position, and would act as a normal wireless access point.
I think any wireless router connected to the DSL would probably work with the Buffalo configured as a bridge, but Buffalo will not tell you that. I would still go with two Buffalo routers because they work well and they would be easier to configure to get them to work together.

 

[Pete]

It seems that I was wrong about not being able to use the normal access
point. I had thought that to use the bridge feature both routers had to be
configured for bridge mode. According to the manual only the router
connected to the imac would have the switch set in the bridge position.
The router connected to the DSL would be set in the auto (normal)
position, and would act as a normal wireless access point.
I think any wireless router connected to the DSL would probably work with
the Buffalo configured as a bridge, but Buffalo will not tell you that. I
would still go with two Buffalo routers because they work well and they
would be easier to configure to get them to work together.

Thanks Mike