Windows update causes printer to stop working correctly

[Peter Olcott]

Fresh install of windows on a newly formatted hard-drive,
always results in this same thing: I install Windows XP Pro
on a newly formatted hard-drive, and attach the computer the
the network's printer using the [Printers and Faxes]
dialogbox. Everything (including printing) works fine before
I do any Windows updates.

Then I do all the windows updates (including SP2) and test
again, now, the print dialogbox, takes 45 seconds (instead
of about 1 second) to come up when the [print] menu item is
selected, and the print job takes 45 seconds (instead of
about 1 second) to begin printing after the [print] button
of the print dialogbox is pressed.

I have tried this same sequence over-and-over many times for
the last six weeks. I always start with a newly formatted
hard-drive and a fresh install of Windows XP Pro. What could
be causing this?

 

[Shenan Stanley]

Fresh install of windows on a newly formatted hard-drive,
always results in this same thing: I install Windows XP Pro
on a newly formatted hard-drive, and attach the computer the
the network's printer using the [Printers and Faxes]
dialogbox. Everything (including printing) works fine before
I do any Windows updates.

Then I do all the windows updates (including SP2) and test
again, now, the print dialogbox, takes 45 seconds (instead
of about 1 second) to come up when the [print] menu item is
selected, and the print job takes 45 seconds (instead of
about 1 second) to begin printing after the [print] button
of the print dialogbox is pressed.

I have tried this same sequence over-and-over many times for
the last six weeks. I always start with a newly formatted
hard-drive and a fresh install of Windows XP Pro. What could
be causing this?

You installing the latest printer driver for this 'not yet revealed
make/model printer' device (that you obtain from the printer's hardware
manufacturers' web page.)?

With all this supposed 'installation' - why have you not integrated SP2 and
most post-sp2 updates into your installation media?

 

[Peter Olcott]

Fresh install of windows on a newly formatted hard-drive,
always results in this same thing: I install Windows XP
Pro
on a newly formatted hard-drive, and attach the computer
the
the network's printer using the [Printers and Faxes]
dialogbox. Everything (including printing) works fine
before
I do any Windows updates.

Then I do all the windows updates (including SP2) and
test
again, now, the print dialogbox, takes 45 seconds
(instead
of about 1 second) to come up when the [print] menu item
is
selected, and the print job takes 45 seconds (instead of
about 1 second) to begin printing after the [print]
button
of the print dialogbox is pressed.

I have tried this same sequence over-and-over many times
for
the last six weeks. I always start with a newly formatted
hard-drive and a fresh install of Windows XP Pro. What
could
be causing this?

You installing the latest printer driver for this 'not yet
revealed make/model printer' device (that you obtain from
the printer's hardware manufacturers' web page.)?

With all this supposed 'installation' - why have you not
integrated SP2 and most post-sp2 updates into your
installation media?

(1) My installatin media does not already have SP2.
(2) I don't know how to integrate it into my installation
media.
(3) The SP2 upgrade seems to be the root cause of the
problem.

 

[Shenan Stanley]

Fresh install of windows on a newly formatted hard-drive,
always results in this same thing: I install Windows XP Pro
on a newly formatted hard-drive, and attach the computer the
the network's printer using the [Printers and Faxes]
dialogbox. Everything (including printing) works fine before
I do any Windows updates.

Then I do all the windows updates (including SP2) and test
again, now, the print dialogbox, takes 45 seconds (instead
of about 1 second) to come up when the [print] menu item is
selected, and the print job takes 45 seconds (instead of
about 1 second) to begin printing after the [print] button
of the print dialogbox is pressed.

I have tried this same sequence over-and-over many times for
the last six weeks. I always start with a newly formatted
hard-drive and a fresh install of Windows XP Pro. What could
be causing this?

You installing the latest printer driver for this 'not yet revealed
make/model printer' device (that you obtain from the printer's
hardware manufacturers' web page.)?

With all this supposed 'installation' - why have you not integrated
SP2 and most post-sp2 updates into your installation media?

(1) My installatin media does not already have SP2.
(2) I don't know how to integrate it into my installation
media.
(3) The SP2 upgrade seems to be the root cause of the
problem.

1) You already pointed that out and it is the reason for the very question I
asked... "why have you not integrated SP2 and most post-sp2 updates into
your installation media?"

2) Google. You now know the terminology if you did not know it before.
There are even tools that do all the work for you - so technical knowledge
needed is limited to downloading and installing applications, putting in a
CD and perhaps burning a new CD. It never hurts to learn something new -
especally (such as it seems in your case) if it might help simplify your
life.

3) Doubtful - thus my inference that you have not given near enough
information to properly troubleshoot your issue. Answer these two
previously inferred questions (inferred in hopes you would either provide
the information or figure out what you were missing):

- What printer is this? Exact Make and Model number please...
- Have you downloaded the latest software for the printer as well as the
latest firmware?

Windows XP Service Pack 2 has been out for what is quickly approaching 4
years. It has not and is not going to change. If it is doing something to
you and your system setup - it has something to do with some unique
component of your system. It could be as simple as needing the most current
hardware driver for something (motherboard chipset, the actual printer
itself, etc) or 'as complicated as' needing a firmware/BIOS upgrade for your
printer/motherboard.

However - without specifics on the printer make/model and whether or not
this worked previously and whether or not you have tried anything other than
a clean installation (tried hooking the printer up to another machine that
already has Windows XP with SP2? Tried hooking it up using a different
connection type (USB?)) - we are shooting in the dark here. Only you can
see your computer and the symptoms you are getting - for me - the whole
scene has to be described by you. ;-)

 

[nass]

Fresh install of windows on a newly formatted hard-drive,
always results in this same thing: I install Windows XP Pro
on a newly formatted hard-drive, and attach the computer the
the network's printer using the [Printers and Faxes]
dialogbox. Everything (including printing) works fine before
I do any Windows updates.

Then I do all the windows updates (including SP2) and test
again, now, the print dialogbox, takes 45 seconds (instead
of about 1 second) to come up when the [print] menu item is
selected, and the print job takes 45 seconds (instead of
about 1 second) to begin printing after the [print] button
of the print dialogbox is pressed.

I have tried this same sequence over-and-over many times for
the last six weeks. I always start with a newly formatted
hard-drive and a fresh install of Windows XP Pro. What could
be causing this?

Did you check to see if your Anti-virus blocking the Printer?.
Try to Reinstall, install the Updates including SP2, Get the latest Driver
for the Printer from the Manufacturer of the Printer and turn your AVs OFF
and Install the printer Software, does this help in overcoming this issue?.
Read this Old thread here:
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/mi...ed2dc3b5a25/20a2ee9002eef812#20a2ee9002eef812
HTH.
nass

 

[Ragab]

What is the model of the Printer exactly?

 

[Jordan]

Peter,

I would be interested in knowing the printer model as well because I just
had someone complain that all of a sudden their HP printer just started
printing rediculously slow. I know that the only thing I have done in the
last few days is approve some old windows updates so I would be interested
in knowing if this was a cause.

P.S. Shenan,
in my last bunch of computers the XP cds are now shipping with SP2c which
will no longer take SP2 or earlier key codes.

Fresh install of windows on a newly formatted hard-drive,
always results in this same thing: I install Windows XP Pro
on a newly formatted hard-drive, and attach the computer the
the network's printer using the [Printers and Faxes]
dialogbox. Everything (including printing) works fine before
I do any Windows updates.

Then I do all the windows updates (including SP2) and test
again, now, the print dialogbox, takes 45 seconds (instead
of about 1 second) to come up when the [print] menu item is
selected, and the print job takes 45 seconds (instead of
about 1 second) to begin printing after the [print] button
of the print dialogbox is pressed.

I have tried this same sequence over-and-over many times for
the last six weeks. I always start with a newly formatted
hard-drive and a fresh install of Windows XP Pro. What could
be causing this?

You installing the latest printer driver for this 'not yet revealed
make/model printer' device (that you obtain from the printer's
hardware manufacturers' web page.)?

With all this supposed 'installation' - why have you not integrated
SP2 and most post-sp2 updates into your installation media?

(1) My installatin media does not already have SP2.
(2) I don't know how to integrate it into my installation
media.
(3) The SP2 upgrade seems to be the root cause of the
problem.

1) You already pointed that out and it is the reason for the very question
I asked... "why have you not integrated SP2 and most post-sp2 updates into
your installation media?"

2) Google. You now know the terminology if you did not know it before.
There are even tools that do all the work for you - so technical knowledge
needed is limited to downloading and installing applications, putting in a
CD and perhaps burning a new CD. It never hurts to learn something new -
especally (such as it seems in your case) if it might help simplify your
life.

3) Doubtful - thus my inference that you have not given near enough
information to properly troubleshoot your issue. Answer these two
previously inferred questions (inferred in hopes you would either provide
the information or figure out what you were missing):

- What printer is this? Exact Make and Model number please...
- Have you downloaded the latest software for the printer as well as the
latest firmware?

Windows XP Service Pack 2 has been out for what is quickly approaching 4
years. It has not and is not going to change. If it is doing something
to you and your system setup - it has something to do with some unique
component of your system. It could be as simple as needing the most
current hardware driver for something (motherboard chipset, the actual
printer itself, etc) or 'as complicated as' needing a firmware/BIOS
upgrade for your printer/motherboard.

However - without specifics on the printer make/model and whether or not
this worked previously and whether or not you have tried anything other
than a clean installation (tried hooking the printer up to another machine
that already has Windows XP with SP2? Tried hooking it up using a
different connection type (USB?)) - we are shooting in the dark here.
Only you can see your computer and the symptoms you are getting - for me -
the whole scene has to be described by you. ;-)

 

[Bill Sharpe]

Fresh install of windows on a newly formatted hard-drive,
always results in this same thing: I install Windows XP Pro
on a newly formatted hard-drive, and attach the computer the
the network's printer using the [Printers and Faxes]
dialogbox. Everything (including printing) works fine before
I do any Windows updates.

Then I do all the windows updates (including SP2) and test
again, now, the print dialogbox, takes 45 seconds (instead
of about 1 second) to come up when the [print] menu item is
selected, and the print job takes 45 seconds (instead of
about 1 second) to begin printing after the [print] button
of the print dialogbox is pressed.

I have tried this same sequence over-and-over many times for
the last six weeks. I always start with a newly formatted
hard-drive and a fresh install of Windows XP Pro. What could
be causing this?

Is this an HP printer? I have an HP all-in-one and I had to get updated
drivers plus updated print software from HP to enable printing after
either a .NET change or an MS update (don't remember which. The problem
was more serious than taking a long time to start printing; I could not
print at all.

Bill

 

[Peter Olcott]

Fresh install of windows on a newly formatted hard-drive,
always results in this same thing: I install Windows XP
Pro
on a newly formatted hard-drive, and attach the computer
the
the network's printer using the [Printers and Faxes]
dialogbox. Everything (including printing) works fine
before
I do any Windows updates.

Then I do all the windows updates (including SP2) and
test
again, now, the print dialogbox, takes 45 seconds
(instead
of about 1 second) to come up when the [print] menu item
is
selected, and the print job takes 45 seconds (instead of
about 1 second) to begin printing after the [print]
button
of the print dialogbox is pressed.

I have tried this same sequence over-and-over many times
for
the last six weeks. I always start with a newly formatted
hard-drive and a fresh install of Windows XP Pro. What
could
be causing this?

You installing the latest printer driver for this 'not
yet revealed
make/model printer' device (that you obtain from the
printer's
hardware manufacturers' web page.)?

With all this supposed 'installation' - why have you not
integrated
SP2 and most post-sp2 updates into your installation
media?

(1) My installatin media does not already have SP2.
(2) I don't know how to integrate it into my installation
media.
(3) The SP2 upgrade seems to be the root cause of the
problem.

1) You already pointed that out and it is the reason for
the very question I asked... "why have you not integrated
SP2 and most post-sp2 updates into your installation
media?"

2) Google. You now know the terminology if you did not
know it before. There are even tools that do all the work
for you - so technical knowledge needed is limited to
downloading and installing applications, putting in a CD
and perhaps burning a new CD. It never hurts to learn
something new - especally (such as it seems in your case)
if it might help simplify your life.

I have spent over 80 hours on this so far, I have no more
patience for the hit and miss (trial and error) method of
solving this problem.

3) Doubtful - thus my inference that you have not given
near enough information to properly troubleshoot your
issue. Answer these two previously inferred questions
(inferred in hopes you would either provide the
information or figure out what you were missing):

Everything works fine before SP2 update, printer does not
work properly after SP2 update (and nothing at all else)
hence SP2 update caused the problem.

- What printer is this? Exact Make and Model number
please...
- Have you downloaded the latest software for the printer
as well as the latest firmware?

It is an HP LJ2100, no I have not downloaded the latest
firmware, I have installed the latest driver.

Windows XP Service Pack 2 has been out for what is quickly
approaching 4 years. It has not and is not going to
change. If it is doing something to you and your system
setup - it has something to do with some unique component
of your system. It could be as simple as needing the most
current hardware driver for something (motherboard
chipset, the actual printer itself, etc) or 'as
complicated as' needing a firmware/BIOS upgrade for your
printer/motherboard.

The printer/properties/ports works differently on the
machine that does not work, all the buttons are disabled.
The parameters of the network port are also different, and
it won't let me change them.

However - without specifics on the printer make/model and
whether or not this worked previously and whether or not
you have tried anything other than

It has worked perfectly well for four years until I needed
to reinstall windows from scratch to fix a corrupted OutLook
Express. I used the same disk as the original install on the
same machine as the original install.

a clean installation (tried hooking the printer up to
another machine that already has Windows XP with SP2?
Tried hooking it up using a different connection type
(USB?)) - we are shooting in the dark here. Only you can
see your computer and the symptoms you are getting - for
me - the whole scene has to be described by you. ;-)

On another identical computer that still has the corrupted
OutLook Express, the printer works perfectly well. Identical
computers, and identical install disks, bother are hooked to
the same network and printer.

 

[Peter Olcott]

Fresh install of windows on a newly formatted hard-drive,
always results in this same thing: I install Windows XP
Pro
on a newly formatted hard-drive, and attach the computer
the
the network's printer using the [Printers and Faxes]
dialogbox. Everything (including printing) works fine
before
I do any Windows updates.

Then I do all the windows updates (including SP2) and
test
again, now, the print dialogbox, takes 45 seconds
(instead
of about 1 second) to come up when the [print] menu item
is
selected, and the print job takes 45 seconds (instead of
about 1 second) to begin printing after the [print]
button
of the print dialogbox is pressed.

I have tried this same sequence over-and-over many times
for
the last six weeks. I always start with a newly formatted
hard-drive and a fresh install of Windows XP Pro. What
could
be causing this?

Did you check to see if your Anti-virus blocking the
Printer?.

Anti Virus was not installed.

 

[Peter Olcott]

HP LJ 2100

What is the model of the Printer exactly?
--
Ragab

Fresh install of windows on a newly formatted hard-drive,
always results in this same thing: I install Windows XP
Pro
on a newly formatted hard-drive, and attach the computer
the
the network's printer using the [Printers and Faxes]
dialogbox. Everything (including printing) works fine
before
I do any Windows updates.

Then I do all the windows updates (including SP2) and
test
again, now, the print dialogbox, takes 45 seconds
(instead
of about 1 second) to come up when the [print] menu item
is
selected, and the print job takes 45 seconds (instead of
about 1 second) to begin printing after the [print]
button
of the print dialogbox is pressed.

I have tried this same sequence over-and-over many times
for
the last six weeks. I always start with a newly formatted
hard-drive and a fresh install of Windows XP Pro. What
could
be causing this?

 

[Peter Olcott]

Peter,

I would be interested in knowing the printer model as well
because I just had someone complain that all of a sudden
their HP printer just started printing rediculously slow.
I know that the only thing I have done in the last few
days is approve some old windows updates so I would be
interested in knowing if this was a cause.

P.S. Shenan,
in my last bunch of computers the XP cds are now shipping
with SP2c which will no longer take SP2 or earlier key
codes.

It does not print slow, it take 45 seconds for the print
dialogbox to appear, and another 45 seconds for the print
job to start after the [print] button of the print dialogbox
is pressed. Then it prints fine.

Fresh install of windows on a newly formatted
hard-drive,
always results in this same thing: I install Windows XP
Pro
on a newly formatted hard-drive, and attach the computer
the
the network's printer using the [Printers and Faxes]
dialogbox. Everything (including printing) works fine
before
I do any Windows updates.

Then I do all the windows updates (including SP2) and
test
again, now, the print dialogbox, takes 45 seconds
(instead
of about 1 second) to come up when the [print] menu item
is
selected, and the print job takes 45 seconds (instead of
about 1 second) to begin printing after the [print]
button
of the print dialogbox is pressed.

I have tried this same sequence over-and-over many times
for
the last six weeks. I always start with a newly
formatted
hard-drive and a fresh install of Windows XP Pro. What
could
be causing this?

You installing the latest printer driver for this 'not
yet revealed
make/model printer' device (that you obtain from the
printer's
hardware manufacturers' web page.)?

With all this supposed 'installation' - why have you not
integrated
SP2 and most post-sp2 updates into your installation
media?

(1) My installatin media does not already have SP2.
(2) I don't know how to integrate it into my
installation
media.
(3) The SP2 upgrade seems to be the root cause of the
problem.

1) You already pointed that out and it is the reason for
the very question I asked... "why have you not integrated
SP2 and most post-sp2 updates into your installation
media?"

2) Google. You now know the terminology if you did not
know it before. There are even tools that do all the work
for you - so technical knowledge needed is limited to
downloading and installing applications, putting in a CD
and perhaps burning a new CD. It never hurts to learn
something new - especally (such as it seems in your case)
if it might help simplify your life.

3) Doubtful - thus my inference that you have not given
near enough information to properly troubleshoot your
issue. Answer these two previously inferred questions
(inferred in hopes you would either provide the
information or figure out what you were missing):

- What printer is this? Exact Make and Model number
please...
- Have you downloaded the latest software for the
printer as well as the latest firmware?

Windows XP Service Pack 2 has been out for what is
quickly approaching 4 years. It has not and is not going
to change. If it is doing something to you and your
system setup - it has something to do with some unique
component of your system. It could be as simple as
needing the most current hardware driver for something
(motherboard chipset, the actual printer itself, etc) or
'as complicated as' needing a firmware/BIOS upgrade for
your printer/motherboard.

However - without specifics on the printer make/model and
whether or not this worked previously and whether or not
you have tried anything other than a clean installation
(tried hooking the printer up to another machine that
already has Windows XP with SP2? Tried hooking it up
using a different connection type (USB?)) - we are
shooting in the dark here. Only you can see your computer
and the symptoms you are getting - for me - the whole
scene has to be described by you. ;-)

 

[Peter Olcott]

Fresh install of windows on a newly formatted hard-drive,
always results in this same thing: I install Windows XP
Pro on a newly formatted hard-drive, and attach the
computer the the network's printer using the [Printers
and Faxes] dialogbox. Everything (including printing)
works fine before I do any Windows updates.

Then I do all the windows updates (including SP2) and
test again, now, the print dialogbox, takes 45 seconds
(instead of about 1 second) to come up when the [print]
menu item is selected, and the print job takes 45 seconds
(instead of about 1 second) to begin printing after the
[print] button of the print dialogbox is pressed.

I have tried this same sequence over-and-over many times
for the last six weeks. I always start with a newly
formatted hard-drive and a fresh install of Windows XP
Pro. What could be causing this?

Is this an HP printer? I have an HP all-in-one and I had
to get updated drivers plus updated print software from HP
to enable printing after either a .NET change or an MS
update (don't remember which. The problem was more serious
than taking a long time to start printing; I could not
print at all.

Bill

It is an HP LJ 2100, maybe it seemed like it didn't print at
all because the used killed the job before it finally got
around to working.

 

[Bill Sharpe]

Fresh install of windows on a newly formatted hard-drive,
always results in this same thing: I install Windows XP
Pro on a newly formatted hard-drive, and attach the
computer the the network's printer using the [Printers
and Faxes] dialogbox. Everything (including printing)
works fine before I do any Windows updates.

Then I do all the windows updates (including SP2) and
test again, now, the print dialogbox, takes 45 seconds
(instead of about 1 second) to come up when the [print]
menu item is selected, and the print job takes 45 seconds
(instead of about 1 second) to begin printing after the
[print] button of the print dialogbox is pressed.

I have tried this same sequence over-and-over many times
for the last six weeks. I always start with a newly
formatted hard-drive and a fresh install of Windows XP
Pro. What could be causing this?

Is this an HP printer? I have an HP all-in-one and I had
to get updated drivers plus updated print software from HP
to enable printing after either a .NET change or an MS
update (don't remember which. The problem was more serious
than taking a long time to start printing; I could not
print at all.

Bill

It is an HP LJ 2100, maybe it seemed like it didn't print at
all because the used killed the job before it finally got
around to working.

Not true. I couldn't even get to a print dialog box.

Bill

 

[Bill Sharpe]

Fresh install of windows on a newly formatted hard-drive,
always results in this same thing: I install Windows XP
Pro on a newly formatted hard-drive, and attach the
computer the the network's printer using the [Printers
and Faxes] dialogbox. Everything (including printing)
works fine before I do any Windows updates.

Then I do all the windows updates (including SP2) and
test again, now, the print dialogbox, takes 45 seconds
(instead of about 1 second) to come up when the [print]
menu item is selected, and the print job takes 45 seconds
(instead of about 1 second) to begin printing after the
[print] button of the print dialogbox is pressed.

I have tried this same sequence over-and-over many times
for the last six weeks. I always start with a newly
formatted hard-drive and a fresh install of Windows XP
Pro. What could be causing this?

Is this an HP printer? I have an HP all-in-one and I had
to get updated drivers plus updated print software from HP
to enable printing after either a .NET change or an MS
update (don't remember which. The problem was more serious
than taking a long time to start printing; I could not
print at all.

Bill

It is an HP LJ 2100, maybe it seemed like it didn't print at
all because the used killed the job before it finally got
around to working.

Check HP support here:
http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsuppor...riesId=25469&swLang=8&taskId=135&swEnvOID=228
to see if your print driver needs updating and to download latest drivers.
Note that the link may wrap in your e-mail. If so, you may have to
remove any line feeds that occur when you try to copy and paste.

Bill

 

[Paul]

Fresh install of windows on a newly formatted hard-drive,
always results in this same thing: I install Windows XP Pro
on a newly formatted hard-drive, and attach the computer the
the network's printer using the [Printers and Faxes]
dialogbox. Everything (including printing) works fine before
I do any Windows updates.

Then I do all the windows updates (including SP2) and test
again, now, the print dialogbox, takes 45 seconds (instead
of about 1 second) to come up when the [print] menu item is
selected, and the print job takes 45 seconds (instead of
about 1 second) to begin printing after the [print] button
of the print dialogbox is pressed.

I have tried this same sequence over-and-over many times for
the last six weeks. I always start with a newly formatted
hard-drive and a fresh install of Windows XP Pro. What could
be causing this?

Have you tried watching network activity on the affected machine ?
Use something like "Wireshark", and see if there is a network
component to your problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireshark

I'm no IT guy, but a long delay implies failures and
timeouts of some sort. A reproducible delay would not
just be inserted for fun, and some invisible dependency
is being satisfied. Perhaps watching what network traffic
is emitted by the machine, will offer a clue, as to which
service or share is at fault.

Paul

 

[Peter Olcott]

Peter Olcott wrote:
Fresh install of windows on a newly formatted
hard-drive, always results in this same thing: I
install Windows XP Pro on a newly formatted hard-drive,
and attach the computer the the network's printer using
the [Printers and Faxes] dialogbox. Everything
(including printing) works fine before I do any Windows
updates.

Then I do all the windows updates (including SP2) and
test again, now, the print dialogbox, takes 45 seconds
(instead of about 1 second) to come up when the [print]
menu item is selected, and the print job takes 45
seconds (instead of about 1 second) to begin printing
after the [print] button of the print dialogbox is
pressed.

I have tried this same sequence over-and-over many
times for the last six weeks. I always start with a
newly formatted hard-drive and a fresh install of
Windows XP Pro. What could be causing this?
Is this an HP printer? I have an HP all-in-one and I had
to get updated drivers plus updated print software from
HP to enable printing after either a .NET change or an
MS update (don't remember which. The problem was more
serious than taking a long time to start printing; I
could not print at all.

Bill

It is an HP LJ 2100, maybe it seemed like it didn't print
at all because the used killed the job before it finally
got around to working.

Check HP support here:
http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsuppor...riesId=25469&swLang=8&taskId=135&swEnvOID=228
to see if your print driver needs updating and to download
latest drivers.
Note that the link may wrap in your e-mail. If so, you may
have to remove any line feeds that occur when you try to
copy and paste.

Bill

I used the latest driver to start with.