Why must Windows be installed first in a dual-boot?

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pc nerd

I want to build a dual-boot PC with Vista & Linux. Both Vista & Linux have
boot loaders. Why is it necessary to install Windows first? Why can't Linux
be installed first?

I'll admit that Vista has a pretty neat feature - one can shrink or expand
the partition from within Windows. Linux requires a separate program to
shrink or expand the partition.

So, please explain why Windows must be installed before Linux or if Linux
can be installed first, what is the sequence of steps.

Thank you.
David
 
I want to build a dual-boot PC with Vista & Linux. Both Vista & Linux have
boot loaders. Why is it necessary to install Windows first? Why can't Linux
be installed first?
Click to expand...

The Linux installation process immediately recognizes a windows
installation and all distributions I tried will automatically insert a
Windows boot-option when you start your system.

Doesn't work the other way round though, Windows won't recognize an
existing Linux installation.

Much easier if you install Windows first so that's my recommendation
as well.
 
pc said:
I want to build a dual-boot PC with Vista & Linux. Both Vista & Linux have
boot loaders. Why is it necessary to install Windows first? Why can't Linux
be installed first?

I'll admit that Vista has a pretty neat feature - one can shrink or expand
the partition from within Windows. Linux requires a separate program to
shrink or expand the partition.

So, please explain why Windows must be installed before Linux or if Linux
can be installed first, what is the sequence of steps.

Thank you.
David
Click to expand...

Because Microsoft in it's monopoly mentality and infinite wisdom decided
that windows does not need to recognize that other operating systems
exist. Ever.

So if you have linux loaded first, and try to load windows, it will
overwrite your boot partition as though it's a blank harddrive (despite
the fact that another OS is installed), thereby disabling your ability
to boot to linux.

If you load windows, then load linux, linux will recognize that there is
another OS installed that you might still also want to boot to and it
will add an entry to it's bootloader to allow you to choose that other
OS when you boot the computer.

--
"Software is like sex, it's better when it's free."
- Linus Torvalds

DRM and unintended consequences:
http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/security/?p=435&tag=nl.e101
 
pc said:
I want to build a dual-boot PC with Vista & Linux. Both Vista & Linux have
boot loaders. Why is it necessary to install Windows first? Why can't
Linux be installed first?

I'll admit that Vista has a pretty neat feature - one can shrink or expand
the partition from within Windows. Linux requires a separate program to
shrink or expand the partition.

So, please explain why Windows must be installed before Linux or if Linux
can be installed first, what is the sequence of steps.
Click to expand...

You can install Linux first but because MS operating systems overwrite the
boot files, it is easier to install the MS OS first and then install Linux
and use the Linux boot manager instead.

man grub

If you don't want to do things the easy way, Google for how to install Linux
before Vista or post on one of the many Linux newsgroups/forums.

Malke
 
I want to build a dual-boot PC with Vista & Linux. Both Vista & Linux
have boot loaders. Why is it necessary to install Windows first? Why
can't Linux be installed first?
Click to expand...

It's not necessary. It's just easier that way. MS will overwrite the MBR
so after the MS install (assuming Linux was installed first), you boot a
Live CD and rewrite the MBR - if you know how.
I'll admit that Vista has a pretty neat feature - one can shrink or
expand the partition from within Windows. Linux requires a separate
program to shrink or expand the partition.
Click to expand...

It has always seemed problematic to me to attempt to resize a mounted
file system.
So, please explain why Windows must be installed before Linux or if
Linux can be installed first, what is the sequence of steps.
Click to expand...

Outlined above. If you need more detail, we can go into that.

Why bother? Why not run one in a virtual machine within the other - that
way it's no hassle at all.
 
Why bother? Why not run one in a virtual machine within the other - that
way it's no hassle at all.
Click to expand...

I considered that but virtual PC doesn't run Linux. I'd have to use VMware.

OK, I'll do it the easy way.

I have some more questions. I believe that Vista doesn't use boot.ini, but
some other boot file. Is it a text file that can be edited? I want to be able
to alternate default OSes. I want Windows to be the default for, say, a few
months & then I want Linux to be the default OS for a few months. So how do I
edit the Vista boot file so that I can alternate default OSes? You know the
OS that boots after the time-out.
because linux is not a snob and can see the existence of windows
installations and it adds them to its bootloader
Click to expand...

I thought that the Windows bootloader is used in a dual-boot setup. Can I
use either the Windows or Linux bootloader?
Doesn't work the other way round though, Windows won't recognize an
existing Linux installation. OK

I use the WUBI way to install ubuntu.. that creates a virtual partition in
windows, and puts all the data in that space...
Click to expand...
using this method of install you can remove linux from the add remove
programs.. and it adds an entry to the WINDOWS bootloader!
COOL!

so you have a windows bootloader that says> VISTA and UBUNTU!
Click to expand...
 
Why bother? Why not run one in a virtual machine within the other - that
I considered that but virtual PC doesn't run Linux. I'd have to use VMware.
Click to expand...

You can run Windows in a virtual machine in Linux, though. But,
be aware that whenever you run an operating system in a virtual
machine, there is a price to pay in performance.

Well, Vista's shrink and expand is also a program. Ubuntu comes
with the gparted program, which does the same thing. When you
install Ubuntu, it automatically allows you to change the partitions.

However, as I understand it, gparted is not yet compatible with
Vista's NTFS. Unfortunately, as I found to my disadvantage,
neither is Vista's shrink facility! Therefore, to shrink or slide
Vista's partition, use Acronis Disk Director or BootIT NG.

To shrink, expand or slide any Linux partition, use gparted,
which is pleasantly easy to use.

I had no problem whatsoever in shrinking, expanding and sliding
(last night, in fact), using BootIT NG for the Vista partition
and gparted for the Linux partition.

However, you are right that you can't do it on a *mounted*
partition! BootIT NG and gparted both require a bootable CD (I
don't know about Acronis Disk Director). To expand a Vista
partition, you can use its built-in program.

If you install Windows before Ubuntu, then Ubuntu recognises the
Windows partition and allows you to boot from either one. It also
allows you to decide which is the default boot partition.

If you install Windows after Linux, then Windows doesn't seem to
recognise the Linux partition. If you've do that and thereby lost
access to your Ubuntu partition, you can pop over to the Ubuntu
support forums, where they'll explain how to recover from this.
 
I want to build a dual-boot PC with Vista & Linux. Both Vista & Linux have
boot loaders. Why is it necessary to install Windows first? Why can't Linux
be installed first?

I'll admit that Vista has a pretty neat feature - one can shrink or expand
the partition from within Windows. Linux requires a separate program to
shrink or expand the partition.

So, please explain why Windows must be installed before Linux or if Linux
can be installed first, what is the sequence of steps.

Thank you.
David
Click to expand...


1) You ask, "Why must Windows...be installed first?".
2) I answer, this is not exactly true.

When Installing two Windows versions, the oldest version should be
installed first, so that the older version can be added to the Boot
Menu of the newer version.

When dualbooting between Linux and Windows, LInux should be installed
first, so the Linux install can appear on the Windows boot menu, since
installing LInux last will not allow Windows to be added to the Linux
boot menu.
 
When dualbooting between Linux and Windows, LInux should be installed
first, so the Linux install can appear on the Windows boot menu, since
installing LInux last will not allow Windows to be added to the Linux
boot menu.
Click to expand...

With Ubuntu, this is incorrect. When installed last, Ubuntu does
add Windows to the boot menu, and gives you the option of making
it the default boot partition.
 
pc said:
I considered that but virtual PC doesn't run Linux. I'd have to use
VMware.
Click to expand...

I think it does, but since I use VMware on both Windows and Mac I'll let you
do the Googling to be sure.
I have some more questions. I believe that Vista doesn't use boot.ini, but
some other boot file. Is it a text file that can be edited? I want to be
able to alternate default OSes. I want Windows to be the default for, say,
a few months & then I want Linux to be the default OS for a few months. So
how do I edit the Vista boot file so that I can alternate default OSes?
You know the OS that boots after the time-out.
Click to expand...

Vista doesn't use boot.ini. It uses BCD:

Vista Boot Configuration Data Editor (BCDE) FAQ
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc721886.aspx

BCDEdit Command-Line Options
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc709667.aspx

Most people prefer to use a gui front-end. Vista Boot Pro is excellent. But
you don't need to do this since you're going to be using Grub. Look at
Grub's options - or man grub like I originally told you to - and you'll see
that you can override the default OS boot order at any time and change it
whenever you want.

Malke
 
Most people prefer to use a gui front-end. Vista Boot Pro is excellent. But
you don't need to do this since you're going to be using Grub. Look at
Grub's options - or man grub like I originally told you to - and you'll see
that you can override the default OS boot order at any time and change it
whenever you want.
Click to expand...

Or, if you prefer a GUI for grub in Ubuntu, use StartUp Manager.
System -> Administration -> StartUp-Manager

Visit the Ubuntu forums to find out how you can uninstall unused
kernels.
 
I considered that but virtual PC doesn't run Linux. I'd have to use
VMware.

OK, I'll do it the easy way.

I have some more questions. I believe that Vista doesn't use boot.ini,
but some other boot file. Is it a text file that can be edited? I want
to be able to alternate default OSes. I want Windows to be the default
for, say, a few months & then I want Linux to be the default OS for a
few months. So how do I edit the Vista boot file so that I can alternate
default OSes? You know the OS that boots after the time-out.
Click to expand...

I don't know how ms does it, but if you use GRUB and Linux to control the
boot options, it is quite easy to change the default. Simply edit one
line of /etc/boot/grub/menu.lst - and it'w quite obvious which line.
 
1) You ask, "Why must Windows...be installed first?". 2) I answer, this
is not exactly true.

When Installing two Windows versions, the oldest version should be
installed first, so that the older version can be added to the Boot Menu
of the newer version.

When dualbooting between Linux and Windows, LInux should be installed
first, so the Linux install can appear on the Windows boot menu, since
installing LInux last will not allow Windows to be added to the Linux
boot menu.
Click to expand...

Actually, all modern Linux installs will pick up every previously
installed OS and automagically set up a dual/multi boot system including
all of them.
 
With Ubuntu, this is incorrect. When installed last, Ubuntu does
add Windows to the boot menu, and gives you the option of making
it the default boot partition.
Click to expand...

Whether it is incorrect or not, it is the way Microsoft suggests that
dual-boots be setup.

Why? Installing Linux last trashes Microsoft's MFT, replacing it with
its own.


Microsoft says "Legacy OSes first, newest MS OS last." Since Linux is
considered a "Legacy OS" by Microsoft, I advise all to do it
Microsoft's way. You'll be much happier in the end, when you delete
Linux and expect to find your Windows OS bootloader still alive, and
have no way to reinstall the correct MFT. (this is why its always a
good idea to PAY for your Windows installation disk.)

Donald L McDaniel
 
I'm confused ! One reply states that Linux should be installed first &
another states that Windows should be installed first !

One reply states that Linux will add Windows to its bootloader & another
reply states that Windows will add Linux to its bootloader !

HUH?

As you can tell, I'm a newbie. Which bootloader should be used - Windows or
Linux ? Which one is easier for a newbie to use ? Since both Windows & Linux
have bootloaders, which one becomes the default ? Do I have the option to
change from one bootloader to the other ?

Apparently, one can use the dialog box of BCedit to choose the default OS.
Does that include non-Windows OSes ?

Thank you.
 
Donald L McDaniel said:
Whether it is incorrect or not, it is the way Microsoft suggests that
dual-boots be setup.

Why? Installing Linux last trashes Microsoft's MFT, replacing it with
its own.


Microsoft says "Legacy OSes first, newest MS OS last." Since Linux is
considered a "Legacy OS" by Microsoft, I advise all to do it
Microsoft's way. You'll be much happier in the end, when you delete
Linux and expect to find your Windows OS bootloader still alive, and
have no way to reinstall the correct MFT. (this is why its always a
good idea to PAY for your Windows installation disk.)
Click to expand...

The Windows installer does NOT add Linux to the Windows bootloader
options. What MS means by Legacy OSes is older versions of Windows.
Also, it is reasonlably easy to reinstall the correct MBR (not MFT...)
if you remove Linux later, as long as you have bootable Windows
installation media (and probably not too difficult even if you don't,
but I've never looked into how to do so).
 
pc nerd said:
I'm confused ! One reply states that Linux should be installed first &
another states that Windows should be installed first !

One reply states that Linux will add Windows to its bootloader &
another
reply states that Windows will add Linux to its bootloader !

HUH?

As you can tell, I'm a newbie. Which bootloader should be used -
Windows or
Linux ? Which one is easier for a newbie to use ? Since both Windows &
Linux
have bootloaders, which one becomes the default ? Do I have the option
to
change from one bootloader to the other ?

Apparently, one can use the dialog box of BCedit to choose the default
OS.
Does that include non-Windows OSes ?

Thank you.
Click to expand...

Install Windows, then Linux, and most (if not all) current versions of
Linux will add a Windows option to the boot loader. Those telling you
to install Windows second and to use the Windows bootloader are
incorrect, because AFAIK the Windows installer does not add Linux to the
Windows bootloader - at least, it never has before Vista and since
Windows doesn't understand any file systems other than FAT and NTFS, I
really doubt it has changed. Also, I don't think the Windows bootloader
can be made to handle Linux, but I could be wrong...
 
So, let's see if I have this correct.

If Windows is installed first & then Linux is installed next, Linux will add
Windows to its bootloader. However, if Linux is installed first & then
Windows is installed next, Windows will not add Linux to its bootloader
because Linux doesn't use FAT or NTFS but another file system so Windows
won't recognize it, correct?
 
pc said:
So, let's see if I have this correct.

If Windows is installed first & then Linux is installed next, Linux will add
Windows to its bootloader. However, if Linux is installed first & then
Windows is installed next, Windows will not add Linux to its bootloader
because Linux doesn't use FAT or NTFS but another file system so Windows
won't recognize it, correct?
Click to expand...

Correct and once you have both installed, Linux can see Windows but
Windows cannot see Linux which is a good thing.

Alias
 
Cool !

WUBI sounds interesting. Pretty cool, in fact. With it, I can install or
remove Linux just like any other program. So, the next thing to decide is
virtual Linux or install it on a partition.

Thank you.
 
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