what's the story with usb flash drives which suddenly need formatting?

[news.rcn.com]

Anyone know what the story is with USB flash drives which suddenly say they
need formatting?

I have a few and some of them suddenly stop working, with the windows
explorer error message when you click on what looks like a perfectly
normally working drive telling you that they need formatting. I notice that
some of them have a button on the side which doesn't seem to affect the read
or write (I think it is only supposed to affect the write?)

I am a bit afraid to format them as they have data on them I am not keen to
lose. However on one, it only saw 32kb of space on a 64 meg drive (this is
one which has almost never worked, which shows an exclamation mark in
windows explorer itself and which I thought wasn't working because it is a
USB2 drive I was trying to use in a USB 1 computer) and another wouldn't
format at all.

Nothing untoward shows up in device manager or on boot up or on plugging in
the drive. They just appear in the systray as normally working additions to
the system. There isn't a whole lot to go wrong on these things is there?

 

[DEMAINE Benoit-Pierre]

Anyone know what the story is with USB flash drives which suddenly say they
need formatting?

Every one used for historical reasons to format drives sold in market in
FAT ... even internal RAM of the very first digital cams ...

FAT can not hold more than 2GB.

Fat32 is not better since can hold only 32GB drives (from Microsoft
specification), and in practice over 500GB when using non Microsoft
formating tools.

Since FAT used to require trivial driver for reading file system, every
one used to encode that one in firmwares and ROMs ...

BUT, FAT32 is patented, and Microsoft asks from memory about 0.3 USD per
device sold with compatible technology.

Other problem: That FAT32 that people have to pay for is also subject to
limitations ... and still according MS-SDK shall never be used on drives
(in fact I should say 'partitions') above 32GB ... to force people using
NTFS over FAT (because patent for NTFS is more expensive, and NTFS
technology includes more features, and already have security) issues.

So, when manifacturers sell a USB key or a hard drive with less than
10USD benefit, half a dolard for paying FAT patent is not negligeable.

About NTFS security issues, they are not very famous yet since no known
virus exploited them by july 2005 (I dont have fresh news about it), but
several security consultants shows them, their uses, and possible
problems and solutions.

***

in short: USB flash keys dont suddenly need formating:
they always needed it, but the factory used to do it for you, and dont
any more because they dont want to pay patents.

You can do it safely since you either own a Microsoft system (thus paid
for the use of all tools included), or use a Microsoft concurent system
that have MS free algorythms ...

 

[news.rcn.com]

My problem is not that I don't know what formatting is. It is that drives
which used to work suddenly report that they need formatting AND that if I
try to format them, the formatting function of xp pro doesnt either do it or
recognise that they are the right size.

(And that all these drives are free giveaways sent out by pharmaceutical
companies which put their presentations on them as PR so they were always
properly formatted).

 

[Rod Speed]

news.rcn.com wrote

Every one used for historical reasons to format drives sold in market in
FAT ... even internal RAM of the very first digital cams ...

More because its simpler than NTFS.

FAT can not hold more than 2GB.

Fat32 is not better since can hold only 32GB drives
Wrong.

(from Microsoft specification),

Wrong again.

and in practice over 500GB when using non Microsoft formating tools.

You dont necessarily need to use non MS formatting tools.

Since FAT used to require trivial driver for reading file system,
every one used to encode that one in firmwares and ROMs ...

BUT, FAT32 is patented,
Irrelevant.

and Microsoft asks from memory about 0.3 USD
per device sold with compatible technology.
Wrong.

Other problem: That FAT32 that people have to pay for is also subject to
limitations ... and still according MS-SDK shall never be used on drives
(in fact I should say 'partitions') above 32GB ...

Wrong again.

to force people using NTFS over FAT

Wrong again.

(because patent for NTFS is more expensive, and NTFS technology includes
more features,

and already have security) issues.

Wrong again.

So, when manifacturers sell a USB key or a hard drive with less than
10USD benefit, half a dolard for paying FAT patent is not negligeable.

About NTFS security issues, they are not very famous yet since no known
virus exploited them by july 2005 (I dont have fresh news about it), but
several security consultants shows them, their uses, and possible
problems and solutions.

in short: USB flash keys dont suddenly need formating:
they always needed it, but the factory used to do it for you, and dont
any more because they dont want to pay patents.

Irrelevant to his question about why the drive goes missing.

His use of the word SUDDENLY is crucial.

You can do it safely since you either own a Microsoft system (thus paid
for the use of all tools included), or use a Microsoft concurent system
that have MS free algorythms ...

Utterly mangled all over again.

 

[Harry]

My problem is not that I don't know what formatting is. It is that drives
which used to work suddenly report that they need formatting AND that if I
try to format them, the formatting function of xp pro doesnt either do it or
recognise that they are the right size.

(And that all these drives are free giveaways sent out by pharmaceutical
companies which put their presentations on them as PR so they were always
properly formatted).

Are some of the USB keys gone wrong?
(and hence making your OS barked on them).

OR

Is your OS having faults to read *some* of the USB keys?

You need to distinguish between the two.

If I were you, I will try reading those USB keys on another PC.

 

[news.rcn.com]

Are some of the USB keys gone wrong?
(and hence making your OS barked on them).

not sure what an usb key is? is it a key in the registry an dif so, where
can i find it?

OR

Is your OS having faults to read *some* of the USB keys?

Yes, that it pretty much it, some usb drives are read on this computer while
others are not

 

[Arno Wagner]

not sure what an usb key is? is it a key in the registry an dif so, where
can i find it?

No, this is slang for the actual device. Also "USB dongle"
"USB memory stick",...

Yes, that it pretty much it, some usb drives are read on this
computer while others are not

Have you overwritten a lot on these devices? Especially older often
only take a very small number of overwites, e.g. 10.000. As any
change on the disk writes the FAT, these will usually go first. Worst
case is probably slow writing to a disk. (Since then the data
is flushed to disk in small pices). The you get one FAT change
every kB or so. Writing 100MB in this way then gives you 100.000 FAT
changes. Logfiles are an example here.

Other write patterns can also generate a lot more changes
in some sectors than you would normally expect.

Modern USB dongles get around this problem with defect sector
management and better storage cells, but they still have a limit
somewhere around 1.000.000 overwrites or so.

As soon as a sector is defect, you can still try a reformat with
defect mapping, but I am not sure how to do that under Windows.
As for data-recovery, you can try the usual commercial outfits,
but I have my doubts that they can do much for this specific
problem.

Arno

 

[news.rcn.com]

No, this is slang for the actual device. Also "USB dongle"

"USB memory stick",... I suspected that was the case



Have you overwritten a lot on these devices?

No, this problem occurs on devices which ahve been overwritten as much as on
devices which have had minimal overwriting. In fact the one I thought wasnt
working because it was a usb2 device has hardly ever worked in any computer.
it just lights up, shows in device manager and reads as if there is no
device there in windows explorer.

Your answer tends to indicate that these devices cant be used as permanent
maintenace and storage devices, which is how they are sold?


Especially older often

 

[DEMAINE Benoit-Pierre]

Fat32 is not better since can hold only 32GB drives

Wrong.


Wrong again.

I am sorry I dont have time to seek 'again' in SDK but I have read that
on the public part of SDK on microsoft.com !

Wrong again.

ok:

open a spam, and save a virus from an email. Save it under an ADS of any
file, run all anti virus of the market on your box. I can garanty you
that you will still be able to run the virus from the ADS without any
problem, and that all AV have left it there !

Today, there is not a single aV that scans ADS; it thus is a preveleged
place to store any malicious data, including virus, troyans, hacked
system libraries ... or any thing that 'should not be there'.

ADS are not either counted in the space occupied by a file, and when a
file of 1MB occupies 1GB in a drive, you have no way to know if any (and
which) file causes that, of if the file system itself is corrupted.

If you copy a file with ADS to FAT, ADS gets lost. To NTFS, it stays.

Also consider that the normal file browser included in Windows (up to
XP) does not counts/list/show ADS, but the DOS command still allows to
create/read/write/access/delete them.

Any virus could at any time store any thing in any ADS, and there is
actually on the market not a single tool known to seek for malicious
data there.

 

[DEMAINE Benoit-Pierre]

His use of the word SUDDENLY is crucial.

the word 'suddenly' is very ambiguous:

- for hundred years, people use to fight using arrows; suddenly, we have
been able to use powder.

I am sorry but he could very well refer to his habit to buy preformatted
USB storage in market for years, and all of a sudden, get them
unformatted from a local vendor, 'what breaks his habits'.

 

[Rod Speed]

I am sorry I dont have time to seek 'again' in SDK but I have read that
on the public part of SDK on microsoft.com !

No you havent. It actually says something quite different.

open a spam, and save a virus from an email. Save it under an ADS of any
file, run all anti virus of the market on your box. I can garanty you
that you will still be able to run the virus from the ADS without any
problem, and that all AV have left it there !

Today, there is not a single aV that scans ADS;

Irrelevant to NTFS. Thats an issue with AVs.

And the virus cant do anything when in there anyway.

it thus is a preveleged place to store any malicious data, including
virus,
troyans, hacked system libraries ... or any thing that 'should not be
there'.

Its obviously possible to write something that checks that.

ADS are not either counted in the space occupied by a file, and when a
file of 1MB occupies 1GB in a drive, you have no way to know if any
(and which) file causes that, of if the file system itself is corrupted.

Its obviously possible to check that.

If you copy a file with ADS to FAT, ADS gets lost. To NTFS, it stays.

Whoopy do, it cant do any harm when in there.

Also consider that the normal file browser included in Windows (up to XP)
does not counts/list/show ADS, but the DOS command still allows to
create/read/write/access/delete them.

So there isnt a problem with NTFS, thats a problem with the win apps.

Any virus could at any time store any thing in any ADS, and there is
actually on the market not a single tool known to seek for malicious data
there.

There is no such animal as 'malicious data'

And its obviously possible to check for extra data in there anyway
if the command line can do create/read/write/access/delete them.

And it aint DOS either.

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

the word 'suddenly' is very ambiguous:

Irrelevant to his question about why the drive goes missing.

- for hundred years, people use to fight using arrows; suddenly, we have
been able to use powder.

Irrelevant to his question about why the drive goes missing.

I am sorry but he could very well refer to his habit to buy
preformatted USB storage in market for years, and all of a sudden,
get them unformatted from a local vendor, 'what breaks his habits'.

The word suddenly wouldnt be used for that when
that particular drive has previously been used fine.