What menu builder program works best with frontpage 2003

  • Thread starter Thread starter PapaBear
  • Start date Start date
I hate them both. Neither of them even appear on your page if you disable
javascript. This means that your site is non-functional without javascript,
and inaccessable to those who use assistive devices for surfing. It also
may mean that your site is not indexed AT ALL by search engines.

Build them yourself using the methods explained here -

Try this -

http://www.interlacken.com/winnt/tips/tipshow.aspx?tip=28

or this -

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/jonspivey/menus/index.html
Click to expand...

Murray,

Actually, the implementation in DHTML Menu Builder is much better than
either of the above two. If you disable JavaScript and browse to the
DHTML Menu Builder Web site, the menu will simply not be visible and
you'll have alternate navigation methods that do work. If you browse
to either of the above two links with JavaScript disabled, the menu
renders, but you can't use it at all. That's an awful implementation.

DHTML Menu Builder I know does provide textual code in the Web page so
that links will be indexed by search engines.

Jim Cheshire
Jimco Software and Books
http://www.jimcosoftware.com

Author of:

Special Edition Using Microsoft Expression Web (Coming Soon!)
 
If one were building a proper site with my menu re this example
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/jonspivey/menus/examples/horizontal/index.html
the top level links would point to a real page rather than be null -
obviously I don't have any real pages on the demo so didn't do that. Usually
you'd have a navigation structure such as

Home
Widgets
Page 1
Page 2
Page 3
Grommits
Page 1
Page 2
Page 3
etc....

The top level menu items link to the index page for each directory (widgets,
grommitts etc) , the drop down items link to the sub pages. With javascript
disabled the user can reach the index page for each directory and from their
navigate to the sub page they want. The point of the drop down menu is with
js enabled it just saves the user a step - ie he can go straight from say
the home page to Widgets/Page1.htm - with no script he has to go to
Widgets/Default.htm then to Page1.htm. The menu is perfectly accessible in
either case. The drop down just saves a bit of time - it isn't essential to
navigate the site.

Of course the search engines just read the sub menu links as plain html so
can follow them at will.

It seems silly to me to buy a product to build a menu and then have to
provide alternate navigation for non js folks and search engines when it's
so easy (and free) to build a proper menu that just works for everyone.

Cheers,
Jon
 
It seems silly to me to buy a product to build a menu and then have to
provide alternate navigation for non js folks and search engines when it's
so easy (and free) to build a proper menu that just works for everyone.
Click to expand...

I suppose it depends on what your needs are. If you need a highly
professional and feature-rich solution, I think a small investment of
$25 is a wise investment.

Jim Cheshire
Jimco Software and Books
http://www.jimcosoftware.com

Author of:

Special Edition Using Microsoft Expression Web (Coming Soon!)
 
Sure, everyone can make up their own mind I was responding to this bit
mainly
<quote>
If you browse
to either of the above two links with JavaScript disabled, the menu
renders, but you can't use it at all. That's an awful implementation.
</quote>

and pointing out why the menu isn't actually an awful implentation and that
the above statement is very misleading.

Cheers,
Jon
..
 
Thanks Jon. You beat me to the salient issue. Of course, it's your method
I linked to, so it's not surprising! 8)

--
Murray
--------------
MVP FrontPage


Jon Spivey said:
If one were building a proper site with my menu re this example
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/jonspivey/menus/examples/horizontal/index.html
the top level links would point to a real page rather than be null -
obviously I don't have any real pages on the demo so didn't do that.
Usually you'd have a navigation structure such as

Home
Widgets
Page 1
Page 2
Page 3
Grommits
Page 1
Page 2
Page 3
etc....

The top level menu items link to the index page for each directory
(widgets, grommitts etc) , the drop down items link to the sub pages. With
javascript disabled the user can reach the index page for each directory
and from their navigate to the sub page they want. The point of the drop
down menu is with js enabled it just saves the user a step - ie he can go
straight from say the home page to Widgets/Page1.htm - with no script he
has to go to Widgets/Default.htm then to Page1.htm. The menu is perfectly
accessible in either case. The drop down just saves a bit of time - it
isn't essential to navigate the site.

Of course the search engines just read the sub menu links as plain html so
can follow them at will.

It seems silly to me to buy a product to build a menu and then have to
provide alternate navigation for non js folks and search engines when it's
so easy (and free) to build a proper menu that just works for everyone.

Cheers,
Jon
Click to expand...
 
And the bottom line is - I wouldn't touch either AllWeb or DHTML
MenuBuilder, even with Jim's finger! 8)

--
Murray
--------------
MVP FrontPage


Jon Spivey said:
Sure, everyone can make up their own mind I was responding to this bit
mainly
<quote>
If you browse
to either of the above two links with JavaScript disabled, the menu
renders, but you can't use it at all. That's an awful implementation.
</quote>

and pointing out why the menu isn't actually an awful implentation and
that the above statement is very misleading.

Cheers,
Jon
.
Click to expand...
 
I can see why people might use such products, they're obviously a quick easy
solution kind of like microwaving a frozen lasagne instead of cooking one
from scratch. I just disagree with Jim's statement that "the implementation
in DHTML Menu Builder is much better than either of the above two" That
statement falls somewhere between misleading and total nonsense :-)

Cheers,
Jon

Murray said:
And the bottom line is - I wouldn't touch either AllWeb or DHTML
MenuBuilder, even with Jim's finger! 8)
Click to expand...
 
I can see why people might use such products, they're obviously a quick easy
solution kind of like microwaving a frozen lasagne instead of cooking one
from scratch. I just disagree with Jim's statement that "the implementation
in DHTML Menu Builder is much better than either of the above two" That
statement falls somewhere between misleading and total nonsense :-)
Click to expand...

Perhaps misleading, but not intentionally so. It was based on testing
Jim Buyens's sample. The links on his menus only work when you hover
over the actual word and not on the menu item itself. Therefore, it
tricked my casual observation into believing that the menu did not
work at all with scripting disabled. In fact, the implementation is
broken whether scripting is enabled or not.

Your implementation, Jon, doesn't suffer from this drawback and is
quite nice. I do agree that such an implementation is a good approach
because it doesn't require a different (or redone) UI for those with
scripting disabled.

For those who want a large feature-set, it's probably more economical
to purchase a program that is the result of years of virorous testing
in all browsers, etc. than it is to attempt to write and debug the
code yourself.

As to Murray's obvious dislike for all such products, I can't comment
because he doesn't offer any basis for his opinion. It may possibly be
based on a conceptual dislike which is fine. However, from where I
sit, it's often a much better approach to take advantage of someone
else's testing and development efforts than to spend valuable time
reinventing the wheel.

Jim Cheshire
Jimco Software and Books
http://www.jimcosoftware.com

Author of:

Special Edition Using Microsoft Expression Web (Coming Soon!)
 
As to Murray's obvious dislike for all such products, I can't comment
because he doesn't offer any basis for his opinion. It may possibly be
based on a conceptual dislike which is fine.
Click to expand...

It is.
However, from where I
sit, it's often a much better approach to take advantage of someone
else's testing and development efforts than to spend valuable time
reinventing the wheel.
Click to expand...

For a quick hit it can be OK, but in my experience, it's the quick hits that
wind up taking the most time....
 
For a quick hit it can be OK, but in my experience, it's the quick hits
that wind up taking the most time....
Click to expand...

But for the average user, creating one from scratch, even with Step by Step
directions can be a daunting task. I agree with Jim. There's a lot of good
pre-made stuff out there that has been around for a while, tested under all
types of browsers and is constantly being updated so you can just download
the update and be off and running. It's like grabbing a snippet of
JavaScript or ASP code and using it. Sure you could write it yourself but
why re-invent the wheel? Also, it's a good way to see how menus (etc) are
made by looking at the source code.



Murray said:
As to Murray's obvious dislike for all such products, I can't comment
because he doesn't offer any basis for his opinion. It may possibly be
based on a conceptual dislike which is fine.
Click to expand...

It is.
However, from where I
sit, it's often a much better approach to take advantage of someone
else's testing and development efforts than to spend valuable time
reinventing the wheel.
Click to expand...

For a quick hit it can be OK, but in my experience, it's the quick hits
that wind up taking the most time....
Click to expand...
 
Perhaps misleading, but not intentionally so. It was based on testing
Jim Buyens's sample. The links on his menus only work when you hover
over the actual word and not on the menu item itself. Therefore, it
tricked my casual observation into believing that the menu did not
work at all with scripting disabled. In fact, the implementation is
broken whether scripting is enabled or not.
Click to expand...
Agreed, although to be fair that issue could be fixed by adding one line of
CSS. The implentation itself is basically sound.
For those who want a large feature-set, it's probably more economical
to purchase a program that is the result of years of virorous testing
in all browsers, etc. than it is to attempt to write and debug the
code yourself.
Click to expand...
For someone doing a personal/hobby site I'm sure such a program would be
money well spent. For someone starting out in this business with the
intention of making a living by building commercial web sites it might make
more sense to learn to do things the right way from the outset rather than
spend time using a flawed solution then have to spend more time re-learning
later. There's no code writing/debugging involved in either Jim's or my
solution - Jim's uses stock FP behaviors mine uses a little custom behavior
I wrote. Either way it's just point and click in design view with some CSS
to pretty the thing up. Because the basic concept is so simple there's no
need for years of vigorous testing - it just works. Obviously you know
yourself the basic code behind FP behaviors is robust enough to stand the
test of time without needing updating for future browsers or without needing
changing when you want to do something like generate menus from a database
or an XML document.

There's certainly room for both methods - it's just a case of which to use
when.

Cheers,
Jon
 
For someone doing a personal/hobby site I'm sure such a program would be
money well spent. For someone starting out in this business with the
intention of making a living by building commercial web sites it might make
more sense to learn to do things the right way from the outset rather than
spend time using a flawed solution then have to spend more time re-learning
later.
Click to expand...

I'll agree that learning how to do it yourself is a valuable skill if
you are inclined to spend the time to do it. I wouldn't classify DMB
as a "flawed solution." I know plenty of professional Web designers
who use such tools because time is money and using them saves a lot of
it.

In the end, the decision is the designer's, but now he or she has a
thorough taste of each side I think.

Jim Cheshire
Jimco Software and Books
http://www.jimcosoftware.com

Author of:

Special Edition Using Microsoft Expression Web (Coming Soon!)
 
It's good to see you back in the neighborhood Jim.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I've been living and breathing Expression Web for almost a
year working on my book. I'm back around this neighborhood for a brief
intermission until I start the next book next month.

It's nice to relax for a while. ;)

Jim Cheshire
Jimco Software and Books
http://www.jimcosoftware.com

Author of:

Special Edition Using Microsoft Expression Web (Coming Soon!)
 
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