What is wrong with optical drives these days?

[Yousuf Khan]

As some of you may know, I recently had an experience where both of my
DVD burners burnt out at the exact same time. These two older burners
were attached to the same IDE cable & channel, so I'm blaming their
physically common attachment point for the problem. Prior to their
failure, one of them was issuing sporadic but continuous error messages
in the Windows event logs, namely Event ID 11, "The driver detected a
controller error on \Device\Ide\IdePortX" several times in a row.

So I replaced both of those old DVD drives with a new Blu-Ray burner
optical drive. Now I'm receiving the same sort of sporadic error
messages from the new drive, Event ID 11: "The driver detected a
controller error on \Device\Ide\IdePort2."

Now, the new drive isn't attached to the same IDE controller as the old
drives were. In fact, the new one isn't even connected to an IDE
controller at all, it's actually attached to a very different plug-in
PCI-e SATA board. The standard driver just happens to see it as an IDE
controller. Despite this major difference, the same sort of problem is
cropping up.

Yousuf Khan

 

[Rod Speed]

As some of you may know, I recently had an experience where both of my DVD burners burnt out at the exact same time.
These two older burners were attached to the same IDE cable & channel, so I'm blaming their physically common
attachment point for the problem.

I cant see how that is even possible physically with a real burn out.

Prior to their failure, one of them was issuing sporadic but continuous error messages in the Windows event logs,
namely Event ID 11, "The driver
detected a controller error on \Device\Ide\IdePortX" several times in a row.

So I replaced both of those old DVD drives with a new Blu-Ray burner optical drive. Now I'm receiving the same sort of
sporadic error messages from the new drive, Event ID 11: "The driver detected a controller error on
\Device\Ide\IdePort2."

So the real problem is actually something
common to them all like the power supply etc.

Now, the new drive isn't attached to the same IDE controller as the old drives were. In fact, the new one isn't even
connected to an IDE controller at all, it's actually attached to a very different plug-in PCI-e SATA board. The
standard driver just happens to see it as an IDE controller. Despite this major difference, the same sort of problem
is cropping up.

Presumably the power supply is the problem.

Certainly the best thing to try now.

 

[Arno]

As some of you may know, I recently had an experience where both of my
DVD burners burnt out at the exact same time. These two older burners
were attached to the same IDE cable & channel, so I'm blaming their
physically common attachment point for the problem. Prior to their
failure, one of them was issuing sporadic but continuous error messages
in the Windows event logs, namely Event ID 11, "The driver detected a
controller error on \Device\Ide\IdePortX" several times in a row.

So I replaced both of those old DVD drives with a new Blu-Ray burner
optical drive. Now I'm receiving the same sort of sporadic error
messages from the new drive, Event ID 11: "The driver detected a
controller error on \Device\Ide\IdePort2."

Now, the new drive isn't attached to the same IDE controller as the old
drives were. In fact, the new one isn't even connected to an IDE
controller at all, it's actually attached to a very different plug-in
PCI-e SATA board. The standard driver just happens to see it as an IDE
controller. Despite this major difference, the same sort of problem is
cropping up.

Yousuf Khan

Maybe a faulty chipset or memory problem?

Arno

 

[Yousuf Khan]

Presumably the power supply is the problem.

Certainly the best thing to try now.

It's a possibility. It's a relatively recent 700W unit, that's probably
less than 5 years old right now. And I would've expected maybe to see
some similar messages from the hard drives in the system, but always
seems to be just the optical drives.

Yousuf Khan

 

[Rod Speed]

Yousuf Khan wrote

Rod Speed wrote

It's a possibility. It's a relatively recent 700W unit, that's probably less than 5 years old right now. And I
would've expected maybe to see some similar messages from the hard drives in the
system, but always seems to be just the optical drives.

Yebbut I cant see anything else that would be a problem
with a whole series of optical drives, particularly with that
blue ray drive on a SATA controller with an adapter.

I just dont buy arno's chipset or ram possibility with the blue ray
drive on the sata controller tho the chipset is marginally possible.

Its much more likely to be the power supply and much easier to try swapping that.

 

[Grant]

It's a possibility. It's a relatively recent 700W unit, that's probably
less than 5 years old right now. And I would've expected maybe to see
some similar messages from the hard drives in the system, but always
seems to be just the optical drives.

Five years old is a good time to open PS up and check for bulging caps,
replace bulging caps or the PS if so. It's common to find too few caps
fitted for PS rating, thus they overheat (due to high ripple current),
and the magic goo leaks out.

Grant.

 

[Rod Speed]

Ant wrote

Grant wrote

Even with good PSU brands like SeaSonic?

Not with the best brands unless you see symptoms that could be due ot the power supply.

 

[DevilsPGD]

In the last episode of <[email protected]>,

Even with good PSU brands like SeaSonic?

Sure. Lots of manufacturers have gotten caught with bad caps in their
supply chain from time to time.

 

[Rod Speed]

Ant wrote

DevilsPGD wrote

Why are we still using caps?

Because there is no practical alternative with a power supply.

Are we going to use them forever?

I wont be using any once I am dead, personally.

 

[Arno]

On 3/17/2012 2:15 PM PT, DevilsPGD typed:

Why are we still using caps? Are we going to use them forever?

That is a bit like asking "why are we using wires" really. There
is no possible alternative. Although in very high reliability
PSUs you can partially go to creramic caps. Expensive, but they
have very long lifetimes.

Arno

 

[Arno]

On 3/18/2012 12:04 AM PT, Arno typed:

I wonder why no progress in better alternatives. Are we stuck in finding
them?

No. Capacitors are a physical necessity. There is _no_ way around
them.

Do any PSUs and other hardwares use creramic caps?

DC-DC PSUs can be all cearmic. For AC-DC it is pretty much
impossible.

But here is the problem: Price. Industrial PSUs run about
x2..x5 in higher in price than Enermax. You can have AC-DC PSUs
with 10 years or 20 years lifetime, but are you willing to
pay $500...2000 or more for a 500W PSU?

Some people would even be willing to, but most do not.

I am still using my SeaSonic 600 watts model PSU from 6/30/2006, 24/7 in
various computer upgrades. About 1.25 years ago, I moved the old PSU
from my main computer to my Linux/Debian box since it was old and didn't
want to use it in my newer main computer in case it goes bust to
kill/damage my computers' hardware parts (have had that before with
other PSUs (e.g., Antec and Enlight).

Antec is trash. Well presented, high priced, but still trash.
Once you look into them, the masquerade becomes pretty obvious.

Here is some advice: If you need the reliability, buy a redundant
PSU and keep a spare module handy. If you just want reasonable
availability, get a current Enermax with 150% of what you need
in power every 3-4 years and use it as a spare.

Arno

 

[larry moe 'n curly]

Even with good PSU brands like SeaSonic?

Many Seasonics use OST brand caps, and I've had many OSTs pop in
motherboards, but they may not be the same model caps.

 

[larry moe 'n curly]

Not from "time-to-time" but in a specific time window. Also note
that PSUs do not use (or need) the low-ESR caps affected by the
stolen electrolythe formula.

Even my old Leadman power supply from 10 years ago had some JGE or JEE
brand caps labelled "LOW ESR", and Seasonic-made older Antec Trio and
EarthWatts PSUs have OST model RLP caps, which are low ESR but not
super low ESR.

That said, 5 years is actually the lifetime manufacturers are
commonly aiming for so this can happen with _good_ caps.

It doesn't seem to happen often at all in 5 years with good caps,
unless Samxon is considered good (probably considered the best non-
Japanese brand). One Japanese brand is held in low regard, Toshin
Kogyo (TK), and experts don't like Nippon/United Chemicon's KZG and
KGJ series.

Make sure you replace with exactly the same values or you
can get stability problems. Voltage can be same or higher.
Ripple-tolerance must be same or higher. ESR must be same
or lower. If you have a choice, larger diameter usually
has longer lifetime, but look into the cap datasheet to be sure.
And do not touch the stuff that leaked out with bare hands.

Many PC power supplies are so crammed with parts that there's no room
to install larger diameter caps, except with long leads (leads must be
insulated, caps probably glued in place with silicone sealer, taking
care to avoid high voltage heatsinks and other components), which can
be a real mess. For some skinny caps the only quality substitute is
Samxon.

 

[larry moe 'n curly]

So I replaced both of those old DVD drives with a new Blu-Ray burner
optical drive. Now I'm receiving the same sort of sporadic error
messages from the new drive, Event ID 11: "The driver detected a
controller error on \Device\Ide\IdePort2."

Now, the new drive isn't attached to the same IDE controller as the old
drives were. In fact, the new one isn't even connected to an IDE
controller at all, it's actually attached to a very different plug-in
PCI-e SATA board. The standard driver just happens to see it as an IDE
controller. Despite this major difference, the same sort of problem is
cropping up.

I think it's common for plug-in SATA controller cards to be seen as
standard IDE, rather than as AHCI. Also many plug-in controllers,
whether SATA or PATA, don't like optical drives.

 

[Rod Speed]

Ant wrote

Arno wrote

I wonder why no progress in better alternatives.

Basically no one has invented a viable alternative.

Are we stuck in finding them?
Yep.

Do any PSUs and other hardwares use creramic caps?

Not at the sort of prices you would be prepared to pay.

They are extensively used in other hardware.

I am still using my SeaSonic 600 watts model PSU from 6/30/2006, 24/7 in various computer upgrades. About 1.25 years
ago, I moved the old PSU from my main computer to my Linux/Debian box since it was old and didn't want to use it in my
newer main computer in case it goes bust to kill/damage my computers' hardware parts (have had that before with other
PSUs (e.g., Antec and Enlight).

Yeah, they live a pretty hard life, on the mains wth
all the spikes etc that are inevitable with any mains.

 

[DevilsPGD]

Noty from "time-to-time" but in a specific time window. Also note
that PSUs do not use (or need) the low-ESR caps affected by the
stolen electrolythe formula.

That said, 5 years is actually the lifetime manufacturers are
commonly aiming for so this can happen with _good_ caps.

That's my point: They aim for 5 years, but don't always hit. When you
aim for 5 years, you'll always see small batches that fail sooner for
whatever reasons.

This is outside of the major issues that we had some years ago that
caught a majority of manufacturers with their pants down.

 

[Arno]

On 3/18/2012 4:44 PM PT, Rod Speed typed:

Cool. I wonder how long this old SeaSonic PSU will last. If it does die,
then I hope it doesn't fry/damage my hardwares.

No well-designed PSU will do that. All reasonable designs have
overvoltage protection. As the OVP is not a power-component
it will typically be more reliable and have longer lifetime
that the regulators.

Arno