VueScan evaluation...

Don · Mar 1, 2004

As it's February 29th and we get a "bonus" day this year ;o) I decided
to use this "free" time to give VueScan another look...

As soon as I started it I realized why I disliked its "user interface"
so much the first time around. I like my programs maximized but under
Windows it took over the *whole* screen hiding the tool bar! Hmmm :-/
Options popping up left, right and center depending on other "hidden"
options on different tabs! Growl... >:-/ A veritable nightmare...

Aaaanyway... ;-) Never mind all that, I persisted, but I can't figure
out how to save a RAW file? I just can't find the option anywhere...
According to the User Guide it's supposed to be on the Output tab!?

Also, where can I set exposure times for individual RGB channels? All
I see is a combined "RGB Exposure" on the Input tab. What are those
values anyway? Using a "difficult" slide to really test VueScan I see
here "29.478". Is that EV!?

Don.

Erik Krause · Mar 1, 2004

Hello, Don
you wrote...

As soon as I started it I realized why I disliked its "user interface"
so much the first time around. I like my programs maximized but under
Windows it took over the *whole* screen hiding the tool bar! Hmmm :-/

Not the case for me (windows 2000 - 'Always on top' enabled for the
tool bar).

Options popping up left, right and center depending on other "hidden"
options on different tabs! Growl... >:-/ A veritable nightmare...

left and right? You have the option tabs left and the preview and scan
tabs right. And you may confirm that there are too much options to
display them all and deactivate the not available ones. I consider the
layout pretty straightforward for the huge amount of settings. Just
stick to 'More Options: None' if you don't want full control.

Aaaanyway... ;-) Never mind all that, I persisted, but I can't figure
out how to save a RAW file? I just can't find the option anywhere...
According to the User Guide it's supposed to be on the Output tab!?

There should be a checkmark 'output raw file' on the output tab, if you
have enabled 'all options' and you do not scan from disk (or have
enabled 'raw from disk' on the prefs tab). But may be it is not
available in the evaluation version.

Also, where can I set exposure times for individual RGB channels?

If I remember correctly Ed Hamrick wrote they are not necessary.

All I see is a combined "RGB Exposure" on the Input tab. What are those
values anyway? Using a "difficult" slide to really test VueScan I see
here "29.478". Is that EV!?

Of course not EV. It seems to be a kind of relative value. But may be
Ed comments...

Ed Hamrick · Mar 1, 2004

Don said:
I can't figure out how to save a RAW file?

It's only enabled in the Professional Edition.

Regards,
Ed Hamrick

Don · Mar 1, 2004

Hello, Don

Hi Erik!

Not the case for me (windows 2000 - 'Always on top' enabled for the
tool bar).

I have W98 here and have to click the maximize button to have the
VueScan window "retreat" to its normal maximized position leaving the
tool bar exposed.

This is no big deal, really... but it's a fairly pedestrian thing to
program which is why it surprised me because it looks amateur.

Now, I haven't tried VueScan on Linux (don't have a Mac) but maybe
it's something Ed did intentionally in order to have identical
interface across all platforms? Wouldn't be my choice, but... ;o)

left and right?

It's just an expression, I didn't mean it literally.

However, whether options on one tab appear *does* depend on other
options on some other tab being set to a specific value. That's quite
convoluted because it happens "in secret". There is no user feedback
which is considered a "bad thing" in UI circles. Also, related things
belong in the same place.

Even on the same tab I find the redraw (eliminating or adding options)
on the same tab also very confusing as I'm faced with a completely
different layout each time. (Tab clearing and flashing is also
visually very distracting - even with Refresh at 0.)

This goes against one of the basic design principles (muscle memory).
That's why, normally, options which are inactive are grayed out but
not removed completely or moved around.

Having said all that I do see Ed's dilemma (and it's a common
problem). There are too many options to display on one tab without
scrolling so he chose the "lesser of two evils". Well, in his view...
;o)

And another thing... ;-) The interface is modal. That's bad. One
aspect of this is when clicking on one option and the screen
immediately redraws just as the user tries to set another option.

And you may confirm that there are too much options to
display them all and deactivate the not available ones. I consider the
layout pretty straightforward for the huge amount of settings. Just
stick to 'More Options: None' if you don't want full control.

In general, I always like to see all options at all times, so the
first thing I did is go through all tabs and turn them all on. This is
even more important when evaluating software because one wants to see
what's available.

There should be a checkmark 'output raw file' on the output tab, if you
have enabled 'all options' and you do not scan from disk (or have
enabled 'raw from disk' on the prefs tab). But may be it is not
available in the evaluation version.

Apparently that's exactly the case as Ed wrote in another message, so
more about that there...

If I remember correctly Ed Hamrick wrote they are not necessary.

Ah... Yes... Well... Ahem... I better say nothing, then... ;o)

Of course not EV. It seems to be a kind of relative value. But may be
Ed comments...

I didn't really expect it to be EV... 30 EV is what...? 2^30 times
baseline exposure...?

I didn't find anything in the User Guide as to what this value is. It
would be nice to know if the user is expected to change it.

Anyway, just one person's opinion... I may sound cranky (didn't mean
to) but I do keep an open mind! :-)

Don.

Don · Mar 1, 2004

It's only enabled in the Professional Edition.

I know this may be hard to maintain, but maybe you should add a note
alongside relevant options in the User Guide e.g., "(not available in
so-and-so version)". With displayed options constantly appearing and
disappearing I didn't know if I were supposed to turn on some other
option somewhere else in order to activate it.

But my main question is why is this disabled? It's an essential tool
in order to evaluate certain features. If I read the User Guide
correctly, once a scan is saved as RAW it literally is raw scanner
data with gamma of 1 and various options can be applied to it to see
the differences without having to rescan.

In particular, I wanted to compare the effects of IR cleaning and
Grain Reduction. Of course, I can perform multiple scans but that
defies the purpose because there is no common baseline.

Also, what is the difference between RAW file and "Output / TIFF file
type / 64 bit RGBI"? If I read the User Guide correctly, the only
difference is that TIFF has a gamma of 2.2 (here on Windows) while
RAW, apparently, has a gamma of 1.

If that is the case what's to prevent the user changing the gamma of
"64 bit RGBI" file to 1 and using that as "RAW" TIFF? I may be missing
something here (some loss in quality, perhaps?) but that seems to me
to further defy the whole purpose of disabling "save as RAW"!?

Thanks.

Don.

Ed Hamrick · Mar 1, 2004

Don said:
But my main question is why is this disabled?

The raw scan files used to be enabled in the evaluation
version, but I when I differentiated the Standard and
Professional Editions, I had to have some features that
were only in the Professional Edition - this was one of
them. (It turns out that this differentiation works well,
since a substantial majority of customers buy the
Professional Edition instead of the Standard Edition.)

I could have added the watermark to the raw scan files
when the feature wasn't enabled (and maybe should have),
but I instead decided to enable this in the Professional
Edition.

Regards,
Ed Hamrick

Erik Krause · Mar 1, 2004

Hello, Don
you wrote...

Also, what is the difference between RAW file and "Output / TIFF file
type / 64 bit RGBI"? If I read the User Guide correctly, the only
difference is that TIFF has a gamma of 2.2 (here on Windows) while

Dependent on the output color space it is 2.2 or 1.8 - OS does not make
any difference.

RAW, apparently, has a gamma of 1.

And it is not transformed to a color space.

If that is the case what's to prevent the user changing the gamma of
"64 bit RGBI" file to 1 and using that as "RAW" TIFF? I may be missing
something here (some loss in quality, perhaps?) but that seems to me
to further defy the whole purpose of disabling "save as RAW"!?

Can the evaluation version scan from disk?

But I agree with you: I think more customers would choose the pro
version if they got used to the pro features during evaluation...

Erik Krause · Mar 1, 2004

Hello, Don
you wrote...

Having said all that I do see Ed's dilemma (and it's a common
problem). There are too many options to display on one tab without
scrolling so he chose the "lesser of two evils". Well, in his view...
;o)

I think he simply used what wxWindows offered. He is working alone and
his time is limited. Anyway I can't imagine how he does all he does.

I'm very greatful if he spends his energy in producing better
algorithms, supporting new scanners as fast as possible, fixing bugs
and implementing new features. In fact there are some enhancements that
have a far higher priority than the GUI.

May be if someone takes the pains and designs an easy to use guide line
conform GUI that allows all Vuescan allows now and where there is room
for new options, he'll implement it ;-)

And another thing... ;-) The interface is modal. That's bad. One
aspect of this is when clicking on one option and the screen
immediately redraws just as the user tries to set another option.

Just set refresh delay to 0 on the prefs tab and refresh manually by
pressing Ctrl+E...

Bart van der Wolf · Mar 1, 2004

SNIP

I didn't really expect it to be EV... 30 EV is what...? 2^30 times
baseline exposure...?

It is a multiplier to the exposure time. The exposure time is
auto-determined on preview.

Bart

Don · Mar 2, 2004

I could have added the watermark to the raw scan files
when the feature wasn't enabled (and maybe should have),
but I instead decided to enable this in the Professional
Edition.

Yes, that's exactly what I was getting at! If there is a try-out
version then let the user try everything out because, in the end, it
is in your interest to demonstrate all the software can do.

Don.

Don · Mar 2, 2004

Hello, Don

Hi Erik!

Dependent on the output color space it is 2.2 or 1.8 - OS does not make
any difference.

That is all in theory and in that context I agree. However, I don't
see any way to set gamma in VueScan so OS does influence which gamma
is used before the image is saved. If I remember correctly, the User
Guide states that 2.2 is used for Windows and Linux, while 1.8 is used
for Macs.

Can the evaluation version scan from disk?

Yes, it does! Which is why I was puzzled because allowing scan from
disk and "64 bit RGBI" save, but then disabling RAW made no sense.

But I agree with you: I think more customers would choose the pro
version if they got used to the pro features during evaluation...

Exactly! It seems very illogical, to quote Mr. Spock... ;o)

Don.

Don · Mar 2, 2004

Hello, Don

Hi Erik,

I think he simply used what wxWindows offered.

In this case UI design is not limited by the OS. It's a choice of
design I was addressing.

In fact there are some enhancements that
have a far higher priority than the GUI.

Absolutely. And development is always evolutionary as new features are
added. That's why, at a certain time, a point comes when the whole
design needs to be re-evaluated.

Now, I did not follow this development from the beginning. I assume it
started with a clean design, and a regular user keeping up with the
changes may not object so much (boiling frog syndrome) but for someone
looking at it for the first time, things do jump out.

May be if someone takes the pains and designs an easy to use guide line
conform GUI that allows all Vuescan allows now and where there is room
for new options, he'll implement it ;-)

These guidelines are well known. Every GUI programming book has a
chapter on UI standards. (Phew, see how I got out of committing myself
to anything... ;o))

Just set refresh delay to 0 on the prefs tab and refresh manually by
pressing Ctrl+E...

The first setting I modified! However, there are changes which cause a
redraw anyway (in order to add or delete options). If there are two
such changes I want to make, I click on the first and just as I'm
about to click on the second, the screen starts flashing, and quite
often my second click ends up on a wrong thing! That's *very* annoying
and one reason why modal UI is frowned upon.

Don.

Don · Mar 2, 2004

SNIP

It is a multiplier to the exposure time. The exposure time is
auto-determined on preview.

Bart

If it's just a multiplier it would mean 30 x preview exposure. If my
math is right, that translates into about 5 EV which seems extreme
(but not impossible).

Or is this number just a percentage?

In any case, instead of us guessing like this it's essential to know
how this works exactly to be able to use it. Also, it would make much
more sense to use EV instead of inventing a new unit.

Don.

Bart van der Wolf · Mar 2, 2004

SNIP

That is all in theory and in that context I agree. However, I don't
see any way to set gamma in VueScan so OS does influence which gamma
is used before the image is saved. If I remember correctly, the User
Guide states that 2.2 is used for Windows and Linux, while 1.8 is used
for Macs.

The Brightness control, is a gamma modifier. The output color space defines
the baseline gamma.

Bart

Bart van der Wolf · Mar 2, 2004

SNIP

If it's just a multiplier it would mean 30 x preview exposure. If my
math is right, that translates into about 5 EV which seems extreme
(but not impossible).
Correct.

Or is this number just a percentage?

No, a multiplier. You can attempt to check it by scanning a small crop and
time how long the actual scan takes. Then lock exposure and fill in a
multiplier and time again.

In any case, instead of us guessing like this it's essential to know
how this works exactly to be able to use it.

Ed Hamrick has explained it in the past.

Also, it would make much more sense to use EV instead of inventing a new

unit.

I think the current implementation is easy to understand, once you know it
is just a multiplier...

Bart

Don · Mar 2, 2004

P.S. I have a very specific question regarding my LS-30.

When an LS-30 scan is saved as RAW or, indeed, "Output / TIFF file
type / 64 bit RGBI" does such file contain 10-bits or 8-bits of data?

As you know, an LS-30 uses 10 bits internally and I'd like to know
whether you're able to extract the full 10 bits from the scanner.

If yes, is this data normalized ("stretched" to16 bits) or do you
leave the high 6 bits at 0?

Thanks!

Don.

Ed Hamrick · Mar 2, 2004

Don said:
When an LS-30 scan is saved as RAW or, indeed, "Output / TIFF file
type / 64 bit RGBI" does such file contain 10-bits or 8-bits of data?

It contains 10 bits of data, with the low 6 bits zero.

Regards,
Ed Hamrick

Don · Mar 2, 2004

Correct.

OK, that's clear now. Thanks, Bart.

The only unknown is the preview exposure. Am I correct in assuming
that the preview scan was done with Analog Gain (AG) at 0?

In other words, in the above example, a multiplier of ~30 (i.e. +5 EV)
is applied to AG of 0 to get the correct exposure for the actual scan.
That sounds about right, since I'm using a dark Kodachrome as my test
slide.

It's also one (rare ;-)) plus point on VueScan's side of the ledger
because NikonScan *artificially* limits AG boost to 4 EV. However, the
lack of individual channel AG control in VueScan is a big minus. :-(

Ed Hamrick has explained it in the past.

It should really be in the User Guide! A potential user can't be
expected to read various newsgroup archives to figure it out.

Also, occasionally there's weird guy like me who actually reads the
instructions... ;o)

Don.

Don · Mar 2, 2004

SNIP

The Brightness control, is a gamma modifier. The output color space defines
the baseline gamma.

Ah... Another "secret" parameter... ;o)

Thanks, Bart!

Don.

Don · Mar 2, 2004

It contains 10 bits of data, with the low 6 bits zero.

That's a big plus for VueScan!

Thanks for the info, Ed. Much appreciated!

Don.

VueScan evaluation...

Don

Erik Krause

Ed Hamrick

Don

Don

Ed Hamrick

Erik Krause

Erik Krause

Bart van der Wolf

Don

Don

Don

Don

Bart van der Wolf

Bart van der Wolf

Don

Ed Hamrick

Don

Don

Don