Vista vs Linux posts vanish

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marty

I know that this is a MS owned newgroup but I'm wondering if a comparisions
between Vista and Linux are appearing. For example, with apologies to Bob
for sending the following direct.

Every OS has it's fanatics - usually called fan boys. I have Windows XP x64
and Vista 64 installed in seperate partitions so they don't see each other
(both think they are drive C:). I also have installed Fedora, SuSE, Ubuntu
and Slackware. Fedora and Suse use SOFTWARE RAID 1 - and you don't have to
dedicat an entire disk like
windows "dynamic" volumes. Actually, I think its impossible for dynamic
disks to setup RAID1 (mirroring).

Frankly, I find Windoze both primitive and arrogrant. It essential kills
any non Windows OS on a disk. The reliance on Drive letters rather than
/dev volumes which can be mounted dates back to DOS - therefore one aspect
of backwards compatibity in all Windows OS's. I mainly use Windows because
of all the shareware I've paid for over the years and virtualization using
MS Virtual PC and VMware. It's not suprising that the MS product does not
virtualize non- Windows OS while VMware does both Linux (including Vista)
and Linux OS.

No doubt I'll get flamed for this but I would like to see the intelligent
defense of Microsoft OS vs. Linux.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob" <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,microsoft.public.windows.vista.general
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: The problem with Linux vs Windows.
 
I know that this is a MS owned newgroup but I'm wondering if a comparisions
between Vista and Linux are appearing. For example, with apologies to Bob
for sending the following direct.

Every OS has it's fanatics - usually called fan boys. I have Windows XP x64
and Vista 64 installed in seperate partitions so they don't see each other
(both think they are drive C:). I also have installed Fedora, SuSE, Ubuntu
and Slackware. Fedora and Suse use SOFTWARE RAID 1 - and you don't have to
dedicat an entire disk like
windows "dynamic" volumes. Actually, I think its impossible for dynamic
disks to setup RAID1 (mirroring).

Frankly, I find Windoze both primitive and arrogrant. It essential kills
any non Windows OS on a disk. The reliance on Drive letters rather than
/dev volumes which can be mounted dates back to DOS - therefore one aspect
of backwards compatibity in all Windows OS's. I mainly use Windows because
of all the shareware I've paid for over the years and virtualization using
MS Virtual PC and VMware. It's not suprising that the MS product does not
virtualize non- Windows OS while VMware does both Linux (including Vista)
and Linux OS.

No doubt I'll get flamed for this but I would like to see the intelligent
defense of Microsoft OS vs. Linux.



----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob" <[email protected]>

Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,microsoft.public.windows.vista.general
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: The problem with Linux vs Windows.




- Show quoted text -
Click to expand...

I much prefer the ease of programming for Windows. The code modules I
write and assemble for a desktop app can be reused in web apps,
spreadsheet apps, document apps, console, and database applications.
In Linux I have to know C for the core OS, PHP for the web, Java for
the desktop, SQL procedures for database, PERL for shell stuff, and
VB for automating spreadsheets. And worse yet, the code I write in
each of those languages cant be reused in the other areas.

why does Linux/Unix not support a structured exception handling model
that all languages adhere to? You cant reuse code if the exceptions
thrown from a PHP module cant be caught by the C or Java or C++ code
that called it.

-Steve
 
Maybe a better place to read Linux advocacy postings would be on a Linux
newsgroup. The main purpose of this group is to be a place where people
installing, running, or just experimenting with Vista can look for solutions
to problems they face with the operating system. It's not a soapbox for OS
bigots, or at least it shouldn't be.

There are a lot of people ranting here, I'll grant you, and if that's what
you want to hear you'll find plenty of it. I skim a few of those posts but
there's not really much good information - just the usual fanboy junk, like
you say. Personally, I'm not having much trouble with Vista, and I've easily
found suggestions here for everything that's come up so far. Mostly it's
just been a case of looking for Vista-compatible application software
updates from third party developers, or finding the particular control panel
applet that does whatever I need to do, or at worst a little dinking around
in the registry. Under the covers, of course, Vista is Windows Server 2003
SP1 with a pretty face and a few new security features such as UAC. So if
you're familiar with Windows Server 2003 - which I run as my main
development system - you're in familiar territory.

I'm no stranger to Linux, myself. I developed on about a half-dozen
different variants of Unix for years, but I can't seem to get myself
motivated to do any coding in or for Linux. Some people might disagree, but
my opinion is that Linux is really, down deep, just another Unix variant,
and I'm tired of Unix. But in spite of that I'm running Fedora Core as a
virtual machine under Virtual PC. It's so much easier and quicker to boot it
up into a VM than it is to reboot the hardware.

Regards,
Tom Dacon
Dacon Software Consulting
 
Started intelligently enough, but that vanished completely the moment you
mentioned "Windoze" *yawn*
 
<sarcasm>

But Vista is so pretty with Aero! I mean I can sit for hours watching
the bubbles screen saver. Hypnotic I tell ya, big pastel colored
bubbles floating on your screen semi-transpartent so I still can read
the latest UAC nag screen underneath. These big beautiful bubbles keep
bumping into each other then go off in another direction. WONDERFUL,
five years in development! Well worth my $200 upgrade to business
version I'll tell ya.

ALL Microsoft software receives a heavy does of arrogance. Its
built-in. Like popping up a error message nagging I can't configure a
device I didn't ask for, or install, but Vista did itself behind by
back and for the umpteenth time I needed to turn UAC off and reboot
just to get rid of STUPID brain numbing idiot error message that are
groundless and as bogus as a three dollar bill to begin with.

Five years waiting and $200 for this? Wait till the next time I bump
into Billy G, he's going to get a earful.

</sarcasm>
 
Steve said:
I much prefer the ease of programming for Windows. The code modules I
write and assemble for a desktop app can be reused in web apps,
spreadsheet apps, document apps, console, and database applications.
In Linux I have to know C for the core OS, PHP for the web, Java for
the desktop, SQL procedures for database, PERL for shell stuff, and
VB for automating spreadsheets. And worse yet, the code I write in
each of those languages cant be reused in the other areas.
Click to expand...

The flip side is that the same linux code I write for my x86
architecture will (typically) run and/or build cleanly on my
arm/mips/m68k/whatever target; architectures that Windows doesn't support.

I also have a wide choice of windowing and graphics systems that simply
are not available for Windows.

And, finally, I have stability of platforms. Since I have the source
code to both the app and the compiler, and I don't have to buy the RTU
for the basic OS, I don't have to worry about my code being obsoleted by
an outside force.

It all depends on what you are doing and what you need to do.
Personally, I find the IDEs in Windows so constricting as to be nearly
useless, and I can think of nothing worse than trying to write a large,
complex system with the tools economically available for Windows.

So, again, it depends on what you are trying to do, what you are used
to, and what your goal is.

--Yan
 
I much prefer the ease of programming for Windows. The code modules I
write and assemble for a desktop app can be reused in web apps,
spreadsheet apps, document apps, console, and database applications.
Click to expand...


Furthermore, Microsoft provides an Express Version of Visual Studio,
which is FREE, that you can download and install to start your learning
of .NET software development.

This is a big benefit to Windows users who cannot afford those expensive
developer tools.

Microsoft Visual Studio Express Editions
http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/

I know Linux comes with a wide variety of developer tools also, which I
am not a programmer/developer, but I had a hard time grasping their
developer tools.

I have Visual Studio 2005 Standard installed in Windows and have fooled
around with Visual Basic .NET.
In Linux I have to know C for the core OS, PHP for the web, Java for
the desktop, SQL procedures for database, PERL for shell stuff, and
VB for automating spreadsheets. And worse yet, the code I write in
each of those languages cant be reused in the other areas.
Click to expand...

That is one advantage of Microsoft's .NET Framework over Linux
offerings. However, each operating system platform has its share of
pro's and con's.
why does Linux/Unix not support a structured exception handling model
that all languages adhere to? You cant reuse code if the exceptions
thrown from a PHP module cant be caught by the C or Java or C++ code
that called it.

-Steve
Click to expand...

Linux is secure, free, and somewhat easy to install -- depending on the
distribution used and the user's experience on installing and
configuring an operating system. However, Microsoft's "PROPRIETARISM"
and stringent anti-piracy enforcements may eventually persuade the linux
community and possibly one or more distributors its time to get very
serious and put a user friendly front-end in linux. An average person
that uses a computer would likely not be able to install linux. They
would be able to install Windows.

YMMV.
 
I much prefer the ease of programming for Windows. The code modules I
write and assemble for a desktop app can be reused in web apps,
spreadsheet apps, document apps, console, and database applications.
In Linux I have to know C for the core OS, PHP for the web, Java for
the desktop, SQL procedures for database, PERL for shell stuff, and
VB for automating spreadsheets. And worse yet, the code I write in
each of those languages cant be reused in the other areas.
Click to expand...

Java for the desktop!? Odd then that my desktop app (which runs under
Windows, Linux, or MacOS) is written in C++. Sure, you can write an app in
Java for the Desktop. But by no means do you have to.

As far as databases go, what *else* but SQL would you use?

The only thing I can think of that is as modular under windows as you say is
the .Net Framework. Which yea, you can write a module and use it in any
other .Net based application no matter what it is. It also comes at quite a
performance penalty though. You don't notice it in the average desktop app.
But try writing something that needs to work with thousands and thousands
of small data items. That will bring .Net code to a crawl instantly.

--
Stephan Rose
2003 Yamaha R6

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I know Linux comes with a wide variety of developer tools also, which I
am not a programmer/developer, but I had a hard time grasping their
developer tools.
Click to expand...

With all due respect, and I really don't mean this in a bad way, if you have
a hard time grasping gcc then you aren't likely going to get far even with
free tools from Microsoft. Not beyond a basic "Hello World" app anyway...
I have Visual Studio 2005 Standard installed in Windows and have fooled
around with Visual Basic .NET.
Click to expand...

Keyword "fooled around". =)
That is one advantage of Microsoft's .NET Framework over Linux
offerings. However, each operating system platform has its share of
pro's and con's.
Click to expand...

The disadvantage is performance however (or lack thereof). And yes, I
started working with the .Net framework when it was in beta still all the
way to the 2.0 version. 3.0 I skipped as it had no features I actually
needed and saved myself the hassle of updating hundreds of customer
installations.

--
Stephan Rose
2003 Yamaha R6

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Stephan said:
Java for the desktop!? Odd then that my desktop app (which runs under
Windows, Linux, or MacOS) is written in C++. Sure, you can write an app in
Java for the Desktop. But by no means do you have to.

As far as databases go, what *else* but SQL would you use?

The only thing I can think of that is as modular under windows as you say is
the .Net Framework. Which yea, you can write a module and use it in any
other .Net based application no matter what it is. It also comes at quite a
performance penalty though. You don't notice it in the average desktop app.
But try writing something that needs to work with thousands and thousands
of small data items. That will bring .Net code to a crawl instantly.
Click to expand...

I think that is basic difference between windows and *nix. And it goes
all the way back.

*nix has *always* been composed of a lot of small, simple tools, each of
which does one thing well.

Windows has *always* had the tendency for the kitchen-and-bathtub
approach; a single monolithic do-it-all tool/environment. (The height
of this absurdity was MS claiming that a web browser is a core component
of the OS...)

The *nix approach is much harder to learn, but once mastered, you can
write amazingly complex tasks in a very short time.

The windows approach is easier to learn - after all, there is only one
app - but results in enormously complex bloatware that has 10,000
functions, when you only need 3.

So with *nix you have specialized tools - PHP for web, shell scripting
for, well, shell scripting, C/C++ for big app development, perl / python
/ ruby / whatever for complex scripting, and so on.

To each his own....
 
Java for the desktop!? Odd then that my desktop app (which runs under
Windows, Linux, or MacOS) is written in C++. Sure, you can write an app in
Java for the Desktop. But by no means do you have to.
Click to expand...

the c++ code in your desktop app can be used interchangeably in .NET
apps written in C# or VB. You cant reuse that code in PHP or Java or
Perl, ...
As far as databases go, what *else* but SQL would you use?
Click to expand...

SQL stored procedures are written in a programming language that
incorporates sql statements like "select" and "insert" with standard
programming instructions like DCL to declare a variable, SET to set
the variable to a value, IF to test a condition, ... I dont know my
SQL Server very well but I know it supports the stored procedure
standard. not sure if there is a .NET version of SQL stored
procedures. My point on this is SQL stored procedure language is
another language with its own syntax and calling convention that is
different from PHP, Java, C, C++, ... MSFT is addressing this
fundamental incompatibility between languages with .NET. Linux /Unix
is not.
The only thing I can think of that is as modular under windows as you say is
the .Net Framework. Which yea, you can write a module and use it in any
other .Net based application no matter what it is. It also comes at quite a
performance penalty though. You don't notice it in the average desktop app.
But try writing something that needs to work with thousands and thousands
of small data items. That will bring .Net code to a crawl instantly.
Click to expand...

the performance hit is very slight and with the processors getting
faster all the time it is foolish to factor in performance as a
consideration. It is reuseability and modularity of code that
matters.

-Steve
 
The only thing I can think of that is as modular under windows as you say
the performance hit is very slight and with the processors getting
faster all the time it is foolish to factor in performance as a
consideration. It is reuseability and modularity of code that
matters.
Click to expand...

Very slight?

Yea, RIGHT!

I wrote a small program once to compress a 4 gigabyte database containing a
few hundred thousand items into a 200-300 meg database by creating a
traversable tree structure out of the item names to do data lookups.

Execution time under .Net: 28 hours.
Execution time under C++: 1 hour.

Yea...very slight difference.

Another case?

My latest app I am developing. I switched it to C++ and OpenGL to allow
myself to support all 3 operating systems. It was developed in C# at first
and believe me, the rendering engine had the piss optimized out of it.
There was just no more room for any more optimization.

Dataset: 40k Polygons 120k lines (2D)

C# Engine execution: 80-90ms running on 2 cores.
C++ Engine execution: 10-12ms running on 1 core.

Again, a very slight difference.

I've used the .Net framework since it was in beta. It's wonderful for UI
applications that spend 99% of their time idle waiting for user input.
That's what it is really good at and it serves its purpose wonderfully
there.

Anything where I need high-performance throughput of data or need to do
something in real-time though? I've found it to be useless for those types
of applications.

--
Stephan Rose
2003 Yamaha R6

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With all due respect, and I really don't mean this in a bad way, if you have
a hard time grasping gcc then you aren't likely going to get far even with
free tools from Microsoft. Not beyond a basic "Hello World" app anyway...
Click to expand...

I did write a "Hello World" in linux using gcc. I probably didn't take
the time to grasp the linux programming world because I had more
interest in learning linux, optimizing the kernel, and doing other tasks.
Keyword "fooled around". =)
Click to expand...

Because I'm a very technical person and programming is not my forte.
However, I would like to grasp programming where I can write utilities,
etc. and eventually to get a programming job. I always get stuck
somewhere in programming where the book just doesn't explain or I don't
understand something and I give up on it because there are other things
that may attract my attention.
 
This a Site devoted for and about Windows.. Linux posts have no place here
and should be removed.
 
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