Vista is no where near...

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Feature complete or stable. MS Applications don't work properly, nor do
important 3rd party apps [Spyware, AV, etc.]. If MS thinks it's ready, then
Linux/Apple here I come! This is by far the worse RC I've ever tested; MS,
Linux, et-al!

MS, go back and retool!
 
While I agree with you somewhat that Vista may not be ready it is not for
the reasons you mention. Build 5728 is not ready for prime time but it is
not the RTM release. I'll have to see that before I render an opinion on it.

Whenever a new OS comes out many old programs need to be updated in order to
work with it. You mention switching to Apple. This is very funny. How many
Apple users could migrate all their programs to the new Intel based Macs
when they first came out? How many programs were broken when OS X was first
released? Apple has a very bad record when it comes to new OS versions
supporting old programs. Strangely enough this is one of their strengths.
Because they don't try very hard to make sure old programs run they are free
to design the OS very differently taking advantage of new technology and
programming methods.
 
Tmelvin,

What third party applications specifically? I know TrendMicro has an
excellent AV for Vista. Vista does also include a good anti-Malware tool,
but remember, you can't blame Microsoft for the failure of 3rd parties to
redo their applications for Vista.

I would write to your 3rd party vendors and ask them (or check the web site,
lots of 3rd parties have Vista beta software out) when the application will
be Vista ready.


Bill F.
 
If you post specifics someone here may be able to help.
Of course you have filed bugs on all issues you have.
 
Bill,

I hear what you are saying about 3rd party applications. However, I don't
know if I totally agree with you. The Grisoft company released a Vista
compatible version of their antivirus application AVG and it ran fine on the
beta 2 release and also RC1, build 5600. Along comes build 5728 and what
happens? AVG doesn't run anymore and in fact when you uninstall it you can't
even reinstall it. So it makes me think that Vista is a moving target. I
can understand a company waiting until the software design is finalized
before commiting time and resources on application development. Normally by
the Release Candidate (RC) stage the application is finished and changes are,
for the most part, compatibility issues. That does not seem to be the case
with Vista. With each new load comes new challenges just to get the system
running smoothly again.

With so little support from the 3rd party audience I really question the
target release date of November 2006 for the business community. To operate
Vista with all of the 3D bells and whistles requires a lot of video horse
power. Without the video hardware Vista looks like a polished up version of
XP so the 3rd party application compatibility will make or break the Vista
release. With the US ecomomy the way that it is, most companies will not be
willing to spring for all of the video horsepower to support the visuals and
3rd party software upgrades so I would be surprised if the Vista launch is a
huge success.


Bill Frisbee said:
Tmelvin,

What third party applications specifically? I know TrendMicro has an
excellent AV for Vista. Vista does also include a good anti-Malware tool,
but remember, you can't blame Microsoft for the failure of 3rd parties to
redo their applications for Vista.

I would write to your 3rd party vendors and ask them (or check the web site,
lots of 3rd parties have Vista beta software out) when the application will
be Vista ready.


Bill F.

tmelvin said:
Feature complete or stable. MS Applications don't work properly, nor do
important 3rd party apps [Spyware, AV, etc.]. If MS thinks it's ready,
then
Linux/Apple here I come! This is by far the worse RC I've ever tested; MS,
Linux, et-al!

MS, go back and retool!
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
this may not be the place to discuss this, however, i would like to say that
i have enjoyed the forward steps of Vista. eventhough i have only been
testing since the public BETA2 release i am pleased with what MS is trying to
do.
i have filed several bug reports, one that i was very surprised that has
remained since i know from BETA2 is incompatability with the "PhotoImpress"
driver from Epson for the Stylus CX4800 all-in-one. as soon as i install that
driver i imidiately loose both of me CD drives (CD/ROM and CD-DVD/RRW) i know
it may be almost impossible to test every single driver out there but i feel
that is a big draw back.
i would to some extent rather have issues that i expect as in Apple's way of
new OS's. while it may be very frustrating to have software that will not
work with a new OS but if means that you would loose a conciderable mount of
baggage and truely gain power from the new OS, why not. XP still has 16 bit
applications that have no function whatsoever. (MSHelp) why? i havent really
dug into Vista but im sure there maybe some of the same. if this is really
going to be a brand NEW and cutting edge OS then it SHOULD be unique, it
should not work with DOS or even Windows 2000 or NT apps. it really should
only recognize XP and that is all. get rid of that excess and lets really
make a system that not only looks good but it has muscle and can really
"Deliver".

Jupiter Jones said:
If you post specifics someone here may be able to help.
Of course you have filed bugs on all issues you have.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar
http://www.dts-l.org


tmelvin said:
Feature complete or stable. MS Applications don't work properly, nor do
important 3rd party apps [Spyware, AV, etc.]. If MS thinks it's ready,
then
Linux/Apple here I come! This is by far the worse RC I've ever tested; MS,
Linux, et-al!

MS, go back and retool!
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Well, among the apps which don't work for me: Quicken 2005 Deluxe v.R5; The
Master Genealogist 6.09; & BOINC when used in a dual-boot system sharing data
files. These are hardly obscure bits of software. I have filed bugs, have
received no response. The Quicken bug has persisted through three releases of
VISTA: Beta2, RC1 5600 & RC1 5728, both x86 & x64.

Too much tweaking is required. Unless RTM is significantly smoother there
will be howls of outrage from the public, and properly so.

formerprof
--
ASUS A8N32SLI-Dlx
AMD 4800+ 2 gb memory
XFX 7900GT



Jupiter Jones said:
If you post specifics someone here may be able to help.
Of course you have filed bugs on all issues you have.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar
http://www.dts-l.org


tmelvin said:
Feature complete or stable. MS Applications don't work properly, nor do
important 3rd party apps [Spyware, AV, etc.]. If MS thinks it's ready,
then
Linux/Apple here I come! This is by far the worse RC I've ever tested; MS,
Linux, et-al!

MS, go back and retool!
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
What have the program manufacturers said when you asked about Vista
compatibility with the specific program versions you are using?
They are not Microsoft programs, and Microsoft can do little about
compatibility with 3rd party programs.
 
They have said nothing whatever; I do have private reasons to believe that
Master Genealogist is working to resolve their problem. While it is true that
formal responsibility for these revisions may rest with these manufacturers,
the larger fact is that Microsoft is marketing an operatinb system. It's
supposed to let programs operate. Having undertaken to maintain
compatibility, Microsoft has failed, in at least my three examples (others
can be found in these newsgroups) to provide it. Formal responsibility is
not the issue; if it doesn't work well people won't buy it -- or if they get
stuck with it they'll scream.


formerprof
--
ASUS A8N32SLI-Dlx
AMD 4800+ 2 gb memory
XFX 7900GT



Jupiter Jones said:
What have the program manufacturers said when you asked about Vista
compatibility with the specific program versions you are using?
They are not Microsoft programs, and Microsoft can do little about
compatibility with 3rd party programs.
Click to expand...
 
Filling out hardware bugs with Microsoft is great and gives Microsoft reason
to contact the manufacturer about driver updates if quantity is appropriate.
The incompatibility with the Epson printer driver is an Epson issue.
Have you also contacted Epson?
There is little Microsoft can do about incompatible drivers.
Epson customers asking Epson directly may have more impact than Microsoft
since you are paying Epson and not Microsoft.

I think customer demand forces Microsoft to maintain backward compatibility.
Without it, the uproar would probably be enormous.
Even the hardware and software manufacturers would have reason to complain
since the cost to them could be enormous.
Then that cost come down to you an me.

Comparing to Apple is not really reasonable since Apple controls more of the
hardware and software used with their computers while Microsoft is the
operating system.
Microsoft makes some hardware but no computers.
And while Microsoft makes a lot of software, there are alternatives for all
that are currently in use.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar
http://www.dts-l.org


Alejo said:
this may not be the place to discuss this, however, i would like to say
that
i have enjoyed the forward steps of Vista. eventhough i have only been
testing since the public BETA2 release i am pleased with what MS is trying
to
do.
i have filed several bug reports, one that i was very surprised that has
remained since i know from BETA2 is incompatability with the
"PhotoImpress"
driver from Epson for the Stylus CX4800 all-in-one. as soon as i install
that
driver i imidiately loose both of me CD drives (CD/ROM and CD-DVD/RRW) i
know
it may be almost impossible to test every single driver out there but i
feel
that is a big draw back.
i would to some extent rather have issues that i expect as in Apple's way
of
new OS's. while it may be very frustrating to have software that will not
work with a new OS but if means that you would loose a conciderable mount
of
baggage and truely gain power from the new OS, why not. XP still has 16
bit
applications that have no function whatsoever. (MSHelp) why? i havent
really
dug into Vista but im sure there maybe some of the same. if this is really
going to be a brand NEW and cutting edge OS then it SHOULD be unique, it
should not work with DOS or even Windows 2000 or NT apps. it really should
only recognize XP and that is all. get rid of that excess and lets really
make a system that not only looks good but it has muscle and can really
"Deliver".

Jupiter Jones said:
If you post specifics someone here may be able to help.
Of course you have filed bugs on all issues you have.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar
http://www.dts-l.org


tmelvin said:
Feature complete or stable. MS Applications don't work properly, nor do
important 3rd party apps [Spyware, AV, etc.]. If MS thinks it's ready,
then
Linux/Apple here I come! This is by far the worse RC I've ever tested;
MS,
Linux, et-al!

MS, go back and retool!
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
That is why if someone has essential hardware or software they should
research compatibility before upgrading.

There is little Microsoft can do.
You seem to be asking for more backward compatibility, there is a lot, but
far from complete.
Another person I recently wrote to wants less backwards compatibility.
How can Microsoft or anyone give you BOTH what you want?
The more backward compatible, the more code and potential for problems with
the operating system.
The makers of anything have to decide the level of backward
compatibility.and draw the line somewhere.
Windows Vista would probably be more efficient if it was built from the
ground up totally ignoring backwards compatibility.
This is what some want.
But costs to consumers is a main reason it will not happen since almost
nothing currently owned would work.

After RTM, research what is compatible and decide if there are benefits to
you for upgrading.
Some will see a benefit, while most will not see a benefit for an immediate
upgrade.

In any case, most have no need to go to Vista.
You should not upgrade an operating system unless there is a driving reason
such as hardware or software demands it.
Windows XP will be supported for at least a few more years.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar
http://www.dts-l.org
 
Some of the applications that do not work are Acronis True Imate 9.0 or 10.0,
Nero Burning Rom version 6 and 7, AVG antivirus, and Roxio Easy Media Creator
7, 7.5, and 8 (they say version 9 will be Vista compatible, but I am not
interested). No driver support from EPSON for the Stylus photo 900 printer.

If the decision to upgrade operating systems is based upon a need for
essential hardware or software considerations then Microsoft will be
disappointed in their sales because it won't take long for the word to spread
that a lot of your software will not work and will require investing in new
versions. The average person has been led to believe that Vista is the most
secure operating system out there. Much, much better than XP. They will go
out and buy Vista out of fear of trojans, virsuses, spammers, etc only to
find that Vista won't work very well for them. I may be wrong, but I think
Microsoft may have made a mistake not making Vista more compatible with the
existing software base out there.
 
The current version of AVG Free works fine, I run it on Build 5728 as well
as several previous builds.
I hear there is a Beta AVG for Vista, but I have not tried it yet.
Nero 6 works somewhat but not fully in all the same build, it is better on
the current build.
I have not tried Acronis yet, but sooner or later I will.

Very soon after release many hardware and software manufacturers will
release appropriate updates.
They will wait until then because any changes in the OS can affect their
product.
Other manufacturers will take longer or not respond at all.
The older hardware and software the less likely it will be supported and the
less likely anything can be done about it.

This is very similar to what happened when Windows XP was released 6 years
ago.
Even the part about security enhancements was similar when Windows XP cam
out over Windows 9x.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar
http://www.dts-l.org
 
Hmm....I can't get AVG free to work on this machine. I upgraded from build
5600 to 5728 and it failed on boot up. I uninstalled it and reinstalled it
and got the same result. I gave up and installed Avast instead. I noticed
that several other people have had the same problem with AVG.

Acronis asked that we turn off UAC to install and test True Image 10.0 with
Vista. It will install and I guess you could say that it runs. It will
create, Verify, and restore an image, but that is about all. None of the new
features in 10.0 seem to work on this machine. It runs very good on XP
though.
 
Remember one important thing. You are still using a pre-release OS. All the
bits are subject to change until the day it goes gold.
My install of TrendMicro has worked without issue on all builds since Beta
2. Checking itno Grisoft's AVG, the first version that fully supports Vista
and more importantly Windows Security Center is 7.5 which was released only
a few days ago.


I can't speak for the RC changes from build to build from a Microsoft level,
but thus far going from Beta2 to RC1 to 5728, things have only gotten better
for my 3rd party applications.

While Vista may LOOK like a polished version of XP (which I think was part
of the plan), the pieces under the cover are much much different. I liken it
to comparing a V6 Mustang to the Shelby GT500. Sure they look similar, but
they are much different when you look.

When it comes to businesses, remember, you do not have to use AeroGlass, and
most companies won't. There is no technical requirement that forces one to
use AeroGlass, which is exactly why the various other modes of displaying
Vista's desktop are supplied.

Believe me I know your frustration. I did much the same when I moved from
3.11 for Workgroups to 95, and then when I moved from MacOS 9 to MacOS X...
no its not fun, but it does eventually get there.


Bill F.
 
I have also heard some have problems with AVG.
I should have mentioned that some are able to install AVG after turning off
UAC.
 
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