USB problem

  • Thread starter Thread starter Neil
  • Start date Start date
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Neil

I started this post in may and did have some positive feedback, thanks for
the replies.
Unfortunately I have only ust had chance to report on the current situation.

This is my original post
I have a PC running Windows XP home. I have both front & rear USB ports.
If I plug a printer into any of the USB ports, the PC shuts down with out
warning.
If I plug a USB memory stick into any of the ports, the same thing happens.
I have a USB extension lead, if I plug the extension lead into any USB port
and then plug the memory stick into the extension it works OK.
I have recently installed a PCI USB card, the computer still shuts down when
devices are plugged in.

Any suggestions?
Click to expand...


So a PCI card has been used to see if the problem was with the onboard USB
controller which made no difference, also the PSU has been replaced which
also made no difference.

Does this now look like a motherboard fault?

Thanks
 
Neil, do you feel comfortable enough to remove the Motherboard? What is
weird is that it works on an extension but not directly in a USB connector.
Do a check for ground and
return the MB to it's Case position.
 
Neil said:
I started this post in may and did have some positive feedback, thanks for
the replies.
Unfortunately I have only ust had chance to report on the current situation.

This is my original post


So a PCI card has been used to see if the problem was with the onboard USB
controller which made no difference, also the PSU has been replaced which
also made no difference.

Does this now look like a motherboard fault?

Thanks
Click to expand...

Does the PCI card also operate the USB ports from +5VSB ?

Power off the computer. Plug an optical mouse with a glowing red LED for lighting,
into the PCI card. Power on the computer using the switch on the back. Boot
the computer, and verify the mouse lights up. Now put the computer in standby.
Does the mouse remain lit ? Then the card is using +5VSB for USB powering.

The theory I had before, is that the inrush transient from the connected
USB device, is causing the shutdown. Normally, a USB port has an electrolytic
capacitor near the header, which smooths out the transient.

In this photo, notice the four black cylinders, near the four USB headers ?
They protect against voltage droop caused by the plugin of USB devices.

http://c1.neweggimages.com/NeweggImage/productimage/15-158-045-02.jpg

Those capacitors are there, to reduce the loading effect caused by the
initial plugin of a USB device. They would help prevent the "rail"
from being flattened by the startup transient. Figure 1b in this
document, shows what happens to the power rail, when a USB device
is plugged in. This is caused by the charging of any capacitors
inside the USB device, rather than the silicon chip inside the
USB device drawing the power. That is why it is called an "inrush"
current.

http://www.usb.org/developers/whitepapers/power_delivery_motherboards.pdf

That is my suspicion as to the mechanism. The droop is so bad, the
voltage drops to zero for a very short period of time.

One cure for it, is if the PCI USB card had a three pin header, which
offered to run the USB ports from the hefty +5V rail, instead of the
wimpy +5VSB rail. If the +5VSB rail is flattened, one side effect,
is the motherboard is no longer able to hold PS_ON# in the ON state,
and the computer shuts off. In a quick search, I'm not seeing a
three pin header on add-in PCI USB cards.

While I suppose it could be the power supply itself, choosing to
shut down and latch off, you've already checked for that by changing
the power supply.

This USB card, has provision for extra power flow, via a floppy disk
connector on the surface of the card. What this suggests to me, is the
card is powered from +5V, rather than +5VSB.

(Manuals, mentioning the floppy power connector)
http://www.siig.com/Manuals.aspx?pn=JU-P50212-S5

Siig charges more for their products, for no particularly
good reason. They like to cover up the chip numbers, with their
product sticker. But this is the first card I can see, with provision
for external power input. (It is not the power connector itself which
impresses me - the connector implies operation is via +5V, as they
could not mix +5VSB with +5V operation quite as freely. So the fact
the power connector is there, suggests they *may* be using +5V, which
would be more resilient.)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815150097

You don't need to connect anything to the floppy power connector for
the first trials. If the card works without it, and the computer
does not shut down when something is plugged in to the PCI card,
your job is done. If the computer shuts down, then connect a floppy power
cable from the power supply, to the card.

Each USB port on that card has an electrolytic capacitor in place, so
the card does have some provision for Vdroop.

You can buy power leads, to do conversion from one format to another.
For example, this lead converts from Molex four pin (LP4) in the
center of the picture, to both a SATA power connector (on the left)
and a floppy connector (on the right). You'd use one of these, if
there were no spare floppy connectors.

http://www.startech.com/Share/Gallery/Large/LP4SATAFMD.Alarge.jpg

This one is a bit simpler, converting a Molex to a floppy connector.

http://www.xpcgear.com/floppy4pin.html

And a "Y" cable, can be used to create a spare Molex.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812198025

HTH,
Paul
 
Thanks for your reply.

Are you suggesting i remove the M/B from the case while keeping all
connections in place & then trying to use the machine, or just removing &
replacing the M/B.

Thanks
 
Thanks for your reply.
As the PC has previously worked with USB with no problems, would this point
to a failing M/B.

Thanks
 
Neil said:
Thanks for your reply.
As the PC has previously worked with USB with no problems, would this point
to a failing M/B.

Thanks
Click to expand...

If that were the case, it would have to be a mechanism separate from
USB bus voltage droop or inrush problems. But the thing is, if you're using
a PCI USB card, the driver and logic associated with a plugin event,
is now taking a different path, and has less to do with the motherboard.
If you use a PCI USB card and this happens, I don't see a reason to be
blaming the motherboard.

Could the USB driver cause the computer to shut down ? That's a stretch.

How about if you boot an alternate OS ? If there was still the same
symptoms, then that would point more towards a pure hardware reason.
(I use a Knoppix Linux LiveCD from Knopper.net for that kind of testing,
and it is a 600-700MB download. The OS runs straight from the CD,
without writing anything to a hard drive.)

Also, the fact that a USB extension cable fixes the problem, should
also be telling you something. The driver path, the logic blocks used
in hardware, are no different when the extension cable is used. What
*is* different, is the time constant of the Vdroop spike. More resistance
in the wire, makes the spike last longer, but reduces the spike
amplitude.

What is also puzzling, is that both a USB printer and a USB stick do it.
I would perhaps expect one badly designed USB peripheral device, to be
using too large an internal bypass cap on its PCB, and that could result
in a spike on the USB bus power rail. You'd think though, that some USB
gadget you own, would have a smaller bypass cap inside, causing less
inrush. It's strange that all USB peripherals are doing this.

And as for grounding issues, if you're testing a USB flash memory
stick, there isn't a ground path outside the computer for that.

Maybe there could be a grounding issue with an external USB printer.
My USB printer has a two pronged plug, which means no ground path.
If there was a three pronged plug, then there is a possible
(though highly unlikely) grounding issue.

If the printer is not connected to the computer, and you test with
the computer and some other (ungrounded) USB device, like the USB
flash memory stick, does it still happen ?

Also, did your PCI USB card, have caps near each header ?

http://c1.neweggimages.com/NeweggImage/productimage/15-158-045-02.jpg

Paul
 
Thanks again for your replies

If the PC is switched on with the printer directly attached then Windows
will appear to boot OK, untill Windows reaches the point when devices are
being recognized and then the problem will occur again and the PC will power
down

If the same is done with the printer attached via the extension lead, then
the unrecognized device error is received.
 
Neil said:
Thanks again for your replies

If the PC is switched on with the printer directly attached then Windows
will appear to boot OK, untill Windows reaches the point when devices are
being recognized and then the problem will occur again and the PC will power
down

If the same is done with the printer attached via the extension lead, then
the unrecognized device error is received.
Click to expand...

OK, well that is different. Since you have a failure while leaving
everything attached, then it isn't an inrush problem.

1) What is the make and model of computer (i.e. Dell Inspiron 440) ?
If you built the computer yourself, what is the motherboard
make and model (i.e. Asus P5WDH Deluxe) ?

So the printer "tips over the box", when attempts are made to probe it.
And is not recognized, when on the end of an extension cable.

2) Disconnect the printer. Try the USB flash memory.

2a) Does the USB flash memory work when plugged in while running ?
2b) If the USB flash is plugged in, before you turn on the computer
power, is it unrecognized like the printer ?

In other words, if tested like the printer, are the symptoms the same ?

The reason I ask about the motherboard, is it could be a motherboard
problem. One other poster in the last day, posted a problem about
another failed ICH5, so that is why I need some way to get info
about the computer or motherboard.

I'm still surprised, that a PCI USB2 card, doesn't provide a degree
of separation from this problem. If the Southbridge USB ports were
blown or damaged in some way, the PCI USB2 card should be passing
with flying colors. While I suppose you could also have a PCI
bus problem, you haven't mentioned any other symptoms to suggest
there is more to this.

While there are USB diagnostics of a sort, for sale, about all
they would do, is log whether CRC errors are coming from the
USB interface. So they wouldn't necessarily tell you of a problem.

Since you've replaced the power supply, I cannot blame that as a source
of the problem (like low USB bus voltage). You could check the
+5V and +5VSB, using either the hardware monitor on the motherboard,
or with a cheap multimeter, but that might not tell you too much either.
I would expect between the two power supplies, at least one of them
would have been working properly.

I cannot find a single fault, which can account for crappy USB performance
on both the Southbridge, and on the new PCI USB2 card. Sure, you
can replace the motherboard if you want, but first, I'd like to
know what it is, so I can do more research on it.

You should also test with an alternative OS. I like Linux LiveCDs for
that, but if you have something else you could use, where you
could again test the USB ports, that might be nice. Even if the
computer was dual booting WinXP and Win2K SP4, you could switch
over to Win2K and try the USB tests again.

*******

Knoppix 6.0.1 is a 660MB download, suitable for broadband (not suitable for dialup)

http://www.knopper.net/knoppix-mirrors/index-en.html

Using Nero or something like Imgburn, you convert the ISO9660 download,
into a bootable CD.

-r--r--r-- 1 ftp ftp 676411392 Feb 10 11:55 KNOPPIX_V6.0.1CD-2009-02-08-EN.iso

Running "lsusb" in a terminal window, would show the identity of a plugged
in USB device, with a "Ven" and "Dev" code. For a USB flash, it should
also be possible to mount the file system read-only for testing.
(I cannot remember right off hand, whether the icon for the device appears
on the desktop right away or not. I'd have to shut down and boot
with it, to test that out.)

Paul
 
Paul said:
OK, well that is different. Since you have a failure while leaving
everything attached, then it isn't an inrush problem.

1) What is the make and model of computer (i.e. Dell Inspiron 440) ?
If you built the computer yourself, what is the motherboard
make and model (i.e. Asus P5WDH Deluxe) ?

So the printer "tips over the box", when attempts are made to probe it.
And is not recognized, when on the end of an extension cable.

2) Disconnect the printer. Try the USB flash memory.

2a) Does the USB flash memory work when plugged in while running ?
2b) If the USB flash is plugged in, before you turn on the computer
power, is it unrecognized like the printer ?

In other words, if tested like the printer, are the symptoms the same ?

The reason I ask about the motherboard, is it could be a motherboard
problem. One other poster in the last day, posted a problem about
another failed ICH5, so that is why I need some way to get info
about the computer or motherboard.

I'm still surprised, that a PCI USB2 card, doesn't provide a degree
of separation from this problem. If the Southbridge USB ports were
blown or damaged in some way, the PCI USB2 card should be passing
with flying colors. While I suppose you could also have a PCI
bus problem, you haven't mentioned any other symptoms to suggest
there is more to this.

While there are USB diagnostics of a sort, for sale, about all
they would do, is log whether CRC errors are coming from the
USB interface. So they wouldn't necessarily tell you of a problem.

Since you've replaced the power supply, I cannot blame that as a source
of the problem (like low USB bus voltage). You could check the
+5V and +5VSB, using either the hardware monitor on the motherboard,
or with a cheap multimeter, but that might not tell you too much either.
I would expect between the two power supplies, at least one of them
would have been working properly.

I cannot find a single fault, which can account for crappy USB performance
on both the Southbridge, and on the new PCI USB2 card. Sure, you
can replace the motherboard if you want, but first, I'd like to
know what it is, so I can do more research on it.

You should also test with an alternative OS. I like Linux LiveCDs for
that, but if you have something else you could use, where you
could again test the USB ports, that might be nice. Even if the
computer was dual booting WinXP and Win2K SP4, you could switch
over to Win2K and try the USB tests again.

*******

Knoppix 6.0.1 is a 660MB download, suitable for broadband (not suitable
for dialup)

http://www.knopper.net/knoppix-mirrors/index-en.html

Using Nero or something like Imgburn, you convert the ISO9660 download,
into a bootable CD.

-r--r--r-- 1 ftp ftp 676411392 Feb 10 11:55
KNOPPIX_V6.0.1CD-2009-02-08-EN.iso

Running "lsusb" in a terminal window, would show the identity of a plugged
in USB device, with a "Ven" and "Dev" code. For a USB flash, it should
also be possible to mount the file system read-only for testing.
(I cannot remember right off hand, whether the icon for the device appears
on the desktop right away or not. I'd have to shut down and boot
with it, to test that out.)

Paul
Click to expand...

In Knoppix 6.0.1, if your USB flash is recognized, you can see it listed when
you click the house shaped symbol (upper left). The latest version of Knoppix,
isn't nearly as colorful and verbose, as some of the older versions.

http://2geek2curious.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/knoppix6-creenshot.png

The lower left icon, has the "logout" item, when you want to shut it down.

Paul
 
Paul said:
In Knoppix 6.0.1, if your USB flash is recognized, you can see it
listed when
you click the house shaped symbol (upper left). The latest version of
Knoppix,
isn't nearly as colorful and verbose, as some of the older versions.

http://2geek2curious.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/knoppix6-creenshot.png


The lower left icon, has the "logout" item, when you want to shut it
down.

Paul
Click to expand...
Did this problem appear after or before you installed the PCI USB Card?

Have you made any other changes to the system i.e. installed another PCI
card etc..?

Do you have the same problem with the front usb ports?

Also, to help narrow down the problem I would recommend unplugging the
front usb ports temporarily.

Also, have you tried connecting the printer and flash drive to another
computer or do you have another known working usb device?

If you haven't done so already, I would recommend trying another usb
cable with the printer (I doubt that this is a cable issue but helps to
rule out a cable issue).
 
A bit more info here, sorry it's in dribs and drabs it isn't actually my PC
If the printer is plugged into any USB port (front back or PCI) then the PC
will boot, but startup will fail and PC will shut down.
If printer is plugged into the extension cable then PC will start up but get
unrecognized device error.

If a memory stick is plugged into any USB port (front back or PCI) then
again the PC will not startup as above with the printer.
If memory stick is plugged into the extension cable then the PC will startup
OK and memory stick is accessible.

If a webcam is plugged into any USB port then - no problems at all - the
only device which always works.

USB extension sppears to be USB 1 spec rather than USB 2 as warning is given
about using a faster port.

All motherboard chips appear to be OK.


I think this is now looking like a software issue rather than hardware, will
try a Linux live CD this week.

will let you know about any further developements.

Thanks for all your replies
 
Neil said:
A bit more info here, sorry it's in dribs and drabs it isn't actually my PC
If the printer is plugged into any USB port (front back or PCI) then the PC
will boot, but startup will fail and PC will shut down.
If printer is plugged into the extension cable then PC will start up but get
unrecognized device error.

If a memory stick is plugged into any USB port (front back or PCI) then
again the PC will not startup as above with the printer.
If memory stick is plugged into the extension cable then the PC will startup
OK and memory stick is accessible.

If a webcam is plugged into any USB port then - no problems at all - the
only device which always works.

USB extension sppears to be USB 1 spec rather than USB 2 as warning is given
about using a faster port.

All motherboard chips appear to be OK.


I think this is now looking like a software issue rather than hardware, will
try a Linux live CD this week.

will let you know about any further developements.

Thanks for all your replies
Click to expand...

So that is sounding more like a USB driver problem.

*******
I guess I should have asked some different questions at the start.
You could have a "controlled shutdown" or an "uncontrolled shutdown".

In a "controlled shutdown", you might get an error dialog, like
"Windows has detected a problem and needs to close". The next
time the computer starts, there might be an ordinary startup, with
no apparent effects from what happened previously. (Event Viewer
might have an error logged in it.)

In an "uncontrolled shutdown", the computer shuts down, before the
OS is prepared. Typically, this causes the file system to be
"dirty". You may notice CHKDSK running at the next startup,
attempting to correct any problems with the file system. An
uncontrolled shutdown could include a BSOD that flashes by,
and may or may not have logged something in Event Viewer.
Some uncontrolled shutdowns are hardware related, such as
my hypothesis that the +5VSB rail was flattened by inrush
current. That should be dirty and need CHKDSK.

So whether CHKDSK runs, might give some indication of the type.
As well as any details about dialogs or BSODs flashing by etc.
*******

Does the printer perhaps have provision for an SD memory card ?
If so, the common ingredient between the USB flash stick and the
printer, might be "USB mass storage" class.

Also, to get USB2, you'd need WinXP SP1 or later. Microsoft
includes a USB2 driver, giving an "Enhanced" entry in the
Device Manager USB section, with SP1 or later. You shouldn't
need a separate driver from a CD for it.

There are ways to clean out the USB stack. These will effectively
cure whatever has been "learned" about USB peripherals, but would
not necessarily correct a driver file corruption. WinXP has levels
of caching for system files, and if there was a virus attack, that is
one way for multiple copies of something to get screwed up. Otherwise,
a tool like SFC (System File Checker), could put back clean copies.
(And if you try SFC, chances are it is going to want the installer CD
for WinXP. If you have an i386 folder around somewhere, there is a
registry recipe to get it to look there. The i386 folder, with the
5000 files in it, should have copies of the files needed. The installer
CD has an i386 folder. I keep a copy on my D: drive.)

The manual way to clean out the USB stack.

http://www.usbman.com/Guides/Cleanup Device Manager Safe Mode.htm

"Windows Safe Mode

Device Manager. In the view Tab Select the Show Hidden Devices Option

The order of removal must be followed exactly

* Delete USB peripheral devices (Scanners, Printers, Cameras etc.)
* Delete HID and/or Composite USB (Human Interface Devices)
* Delete USB Root Hub(s) (Universal Host Controllers)
* Delete USB Host Controller(s) (Universal Host Controllers)"

A second (automated) method is here.

http://www.robvanderwoude.com/devcon.php

RenewUSB.bat "...use entirely at your own risk"

So you could start, by cleaning out the USB stack.

You could run SFC, before attempting to plug in any USB devices. ("sfc /scannow")

Reboot, then start your USB test cases again.

Then see what happens...

Paul
 
Thanks for all your replies.
Yes the printer does have a card reader, so there could be a connection with
the memory stick.
Tried your last suggestions regarding device manager & SFC with stil no
change, plugging in memory stick caused an uncontrolled shutdown.

Powering up PC with memory stick directly attached startup fails and PC
reboots.
Did notice BSOD flash when startup failed, so changed startup setting to not
restart on errors.
BSOD now gave error details :- atempt made to execute nonexecutable memory.

0x000000FC (0xF79F38E8, 0x07928963, 0xF79F3848, 0x00000001)

Did a quick web search on 0x000000FC and found reference to SP3 & DEP
settings.
Checked for SP3 install, but date was well before problems started.
Chenged DEP setting & still no change.

Motherboard is Asus M2V-MXSE
CPU is AMD 4200+ dual core
Ram is 1GB with 256 mb Nvidia graphics.

Hope this info helps, look forward to fearing from you again soon.

Neil
 
Neil said:
Thanks for all your replies.
Yes the printer does have a card reader, so there could be a connection with
the memory stick.
Tried your last suggestions regarding device manager & SFC with stil no
change, plugging in memory stick caused an uncontrolled shutdown.

Powering up PC with memory stick directly attached startup fails and PC
reboots.
Did notice BSOD flash when startup failed, so changed startup setting to not
restart on errors.
BSOD now gave error details :- atempt made to execute nonexecutable memory.

0x000000FC (0xF79F38E8, 0x07928963, 0xF79F3848, 0x00000001)

Did a quick web search on 0x000000FC and found reference to SP3 & DEP
settings.
Checked for SP3 install, but date was well before problems started.
Chenged DEP setting & still no change.

Motherboard is Asus M2V-MXSE
CPU is AMD 4200+ dual core
Ram is 1GB with 256 mb Nvidia graphics.

Hope this info helps, look forward to fearing from you again soon.

Neil
Click to expand...

There is no help on decoding the parameters of 0x000000FC here.
It would have helped, if the routine attempting the access was
identified.

http://aumha.org/a/stop.htm

I found one web page, which recommended changing a BIOS setting
for USB. PDF page 63 (2-21) here shows the options.

http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb/socketAM2/M2V-MX_SE/e3023_m2v-mx_se.zip

(This page had something to do with SP3.)
http://www.icamd.org/windows/dell.html

You could try disabling legacy support. But I don't know what
other settings there would help. Are your USB settings currently
all at the default values, or have some been changed ?

There are web pages, that cover some of the BIOS settings. For
example, the Port64/60 emulation is described here.

http://www.techarp.com/showFreeBOG.aspx?lang=0&bogno=343

Perhaps someone else recognizes the 0x000000FC symptom ?

Paul
 
Hi,

Error is still persisting.

Tried booting with Linux live CD and had no problems, with memory stick

Disabled DEP settings & BSOD changed error message to 0x000000e.
Regarding BIOS, if I disable USB 2.0 then the problems appears to go away.
Can bot with memory stick or insert memory stick while PC is running with no
problems.
Not checked the same with printer yet.
 
Neil said:
Hi,

Error is still persisting.

Tried booting with Linux live CD and had no problems, with memory stick

Disabled DEP settings & BSOD changed error message to 0x000000e.
Regarding BIOS, if I disable USB 2.0 then the problems appears to go away.
Can bot with memory stick or insert memory stick while PC is running with no
problems.
Not checked the same with printer yet.
Click to expand...

The funny thing is, I have the same Southbridge as you do :-)
The Southbridge is where the motherboard USB ports are handled.
I have a VT8237S on the motherboard I'm typing this on. I've run
a Canon inkjet printer, a couple USB sticks, a webcam, and
there were no USB related issues. Or DEP, or crashing.

Since this isn't your personal machine, I suppose there are limits
are to how far you can go on debugging. If it was me at this
point, and my Linux testing was showing no problems, but WinXP
would not play nice, I might connect my spare drive,
do a clean install of WinXP, and do some testing there.
I would disconnect the original drive, during the installation,
but after the first full reboot is finished, I'd then be
able to connect up the old drive again. Then, try the USB
memory stick first, before any USB printer software.

It could be that the USB printer software has done something.
If the behavior "goes south", after the printer software is
added to the fresh install, that might hint at the problem.
(When I do a fresh install, I disconnect from the net, and
avoid activation. I try to make sure I have all the software
I need for testing, stored on disk. That way, I'm not constantly
re-activating with Microsoft watching.)

Could the DEP thing be malware ? Otherwise, why would the
system be attempting to execute data space, instead of sticking
to memory areas marked as holding code.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Execution_Prevention

Have you ever looked through the setupapi.log file ? Is there
anything strange recorded in there ? Sometimes, there are
multiple files by that name, as the system may change the name
and start a fresh one, when it gets too big. When a new USB device
is plugged in, you might see a fresh entry at the end of the file.

I'm guessing this is yours ?

http://vip.asus.com/forum/view.aspx...d_id=1&model=M2V-MX+SE&page=1&SLanguage=en-us

Paul
 
Thanks again.
Changed DEP as there were suggestions regarding service packs causing BSOD's.

CHanged BIOS settings to disable USB 2 And memory sticks work OK.
Completely uninstalled printer drivers and all related software and passed
it back o it's rightfull owner to reinstall printer.
Considering the PC only has printer, webcam or webcam etc attached then
maybe USB 1 should suffice.

Just had a message to say that printer installed OK and memory sticks were
working, so he was happy with that.
 
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