Ultimate backup doesn't compress image?

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Is it true that the image backup program in Ultimate doesn't compress the
image it creates?
 
Yet Complete PC Backup somehow fits my entire 12.3GB system partition
very easily onto two ordinary DVDs (which should hold no more than 9GB),
and that doesn't include my page file, which is on another drive.
 
I believe compression is used when backing up to DVDs,
and not when it's another hard drive.

http://www.zdnet.com.au/insight/sof...C_Backup_utility/0,139023769,339272295,00.htm

<quote>
Once the DVD has been formatted, Complete PC Backup utility will begin imaging the disk. As the
operation continues and the first disk is filled, you're prompted to insert and format
subsequent disks. In my case it took three DVDs to backup my 26GB installation. The first two
DVDs were filled at 4.37GB while the third required only 568MB, which comes out to about 9GB --
not a bad compression ratio.
</quote>


-Michael
 
Do you think it determines the amount of compression
based on what it is backing up to and/or the free space available?

-Michael
 
This is from a chat with the team a few months ago (TechBeta).

"Eduardo L [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Are the images created in CompletePC backup compressed when they are
backed up?
A: They are compressed when the target is a DVD/CD, but not to hard disks.
And the compression rate will be based on the type of data being backed up."
 
Perfect. Thanks.


Colin Barnhorst said:
This is from a chat with the team a few months ago (TechBeta).

"Eduardo L [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Are the images created in CompletePC backup compressed when they are backed up?
A: They are compressed when the target is a DVD/CD, but not to hard disks. And the
compression rate will be based on the type of data being backed up."

MICHAEL said:
Do you think it determines the amount of compression
based on what it is backing up to and/or the free space available?

-Michael
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Yes. Thanks from me, as well. Interesting to know.
Perfect. Thanks.


Colin Barnhorst said:
This is from a chat with the team a few months ago (TechBeta).

"Eduardo L [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Are the images created in CompletePC backup compressed when they
are backed up?
A: They are compressed when the target is a DVD/CD, but not to hard
disks. And the compression rate will be based on the type of data
being backed up."

MICHAEL said:
Do you think it determines the amount of compression
based on what it is backing up to and/or the free space available?

-Michael

CompletePC Backup does compress, sometimes dramatically. Also, File
Backup zips its folders.

Is it true that the image backup program in Ultimate doesn't
compress the
image it creates?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
I just did a CompletePC Backup on my dual boot and was intrigued that
it insisted -- no way I could find to change the checkmarks -- on
including my XP Pro drive as well as the VISTA drive although allowing
me to add other drives it saw.

I don't see a clear description in HELP for what you do if you have
this complete backup and your system crashes completely so that you
want to do a full restore.

There are references to booting from the DVD and then Repair but does
Repair give you a choice between Repair = reinstall from the DVD and
Repair = restore the CompletePC Backup?
 
one of the reasons I went with Ultimate was for the backup but it is
so lame it would have been cheaper to get business and buy true image,
which I will buy soon.
As will other third party backup programs I'm sure. I was hoping that,
for a change, the MS included solution would do what I want. :^(
Acronis True Image 10 will do what you want.

-Michael

Jerry said:
That's pretty dumb. Why would they think I don't want the backup
compressed just because it's going to a hard drive? I like to use my
older, smaller drives for things like backups.

Colin Barnhorst wrote:
This is from a chat with the team a few months ago (TechBeta).

"Eduardo L [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Are the images created in CompletePC backup compressed when they
are backed up?
A: They are compressed when the target is a DVD/CD, but not to hard
disks. And the compression rate will be based on the type of data
being backed up."
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
There were technical reasons behind why we don't compress the .vhd on hard
disks. I'll need to track down an old email for the reason but I think it
was VSS-related.

--
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

Want to learn more about Windows file and storage technologies? Visit our
team blog at http://blogs.technet.com/filecab/default.aspx.


Jerry said:
That's pretty dumb. Why would they think I don't want the backup
compressed just because it's going to a hard drive? I like to use my
older, smaller drives for things like backups.

Colin said:
This is from a chat with the team a few months ago (TechBeta).

"Eduardo L [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Are the images created in CompletePC backup compressed when they are
backed up?
A: They are compressed when the target is a DVD/CD, but not to hard
disks. And the compression rate will be based on the type of data being
backed up."
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Here's the reason: On the incremental backup, any compression would lead to
huge differences between the current vhd and the one on the snapshot and we
will be deleting old snapshots at much higher rate. So the backup algorithm
is highly optimized to cause as little as possible copy-on-write to be able
to keep more backups on the target disk.

--
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

Want to learn more about Windows file and storage technologies? Visit our
team blog at http://blogs.technet.com/filecab/default.aspx.
Jerry said:
That's pretty dumb. Why would they think I don't want the backup
compressed just because it's going to a hard drive? I like to use my
older, smaller drives for things like backups.

Colin said:
This is from a chat with the team a few months ago (TechBeta).

"Eduardo L [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Are the images created in CompletePC backup compressed when they are
backed up?
A: They are compressed when the target is a DVD/CD, but not to hard
disks. And the compression rate will be based on the type of data being
backed up."
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Here's the reason: On the incremental backup, any compression would lead to
huge differences between the current vhd and the one on the snapshot and we
will be deleting old snapshots at much higher rate. So the backup algorithm
is highly optimized to cause as little as possible copy-on-write to be able
to keep more backups on the target disk.
Click to expand...

Wow does that sound like a bunch of mobo jumbo. ;)
Why doesn't Arconis have this problem? BTW what is COPY-ON-WRITE and
couldn't you keep even more backups if they were compressed?
 
Wow does that sound like a bunch of mobo jumbo. ;)
Why doesn't Arconis have this problem? BTW what is COPY-ON-WRITE and
couldn't you keep even more backups if they were compressed?
Click to expand...

All very good questions.
 
In message <#[email protected]> "Jill Zoeller [MSFT]"
Here's the reason: On the incremental backup, any compression would lead to
huge differences between the current vhd and the one on the snapshot and we
will be deleting old snapshots at much higher rate. So the backup algorithm
is highly optimized to cause as little as possible copy-on-write to be able
to keep more backups on the target disk.
Click to expand...

That explanation partially makes sense (although only to a point -- It's
possible to engineer around the problem)

I'm not really interested in an incremental backup myself, just an
initial backup, and a second with a subset of apps installed, the
machine joined to my domain, a few other things like that. Beyond that,
I use policies to push most of my configuration options and some apps,
and have my own synchronization tool that installs the stuff I can't
push in a policy.

However, that's a fair enough explanation, thanks!
 
In message <[email protected]> "Colin
Barnhorst said:
This is from a chat with the team a few months ago (TechBeta).

"Eduardo L [MSFT] (Expert):
Q: Are the images created in CompletePC backup compressed when they are
backed up?
A: They are compressed when the target is a DVD/CD, but not to hard disks.
And the compression rate will be based on the type of data being backed up."
Click to expand...

An interesting design decision -- Any information as to why this isn't
available to the user? Disk space may be cheap, but a few minutes (or
even overnight hours) of CPU is even cheaper.
 
"That explanation partially makes sense (although only to a point -- It's
possible to engineer around the problem"

We get a lot of questions like "Why didn't you add X," and often the reason
boils down to time.The guys on the dev team never look happy when they
explain this to me. They made a lot of tradeoffs for Vista and are looking
at those for future releases.

--
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.

Want to learn more about Windows file and storage technologies? Visit our
team blog at http://blogs.technet.com/filecab/default.aspx.


DevilsPGD said:
In message <#[email protected]> "Jill Zoeller [MSFT]"
Here's the reason: On the incremental backup, any compression would lead
to
huge differences between the current vhd and the one on the snapshot and
we
will be deleting old snapshots at much higher rate. So the backup
algorithm
is highly optimized to cause as little as possible copy-on-write to be
able
to keep more backups on the target disk.
Click to expand...

That explanation partially makes sense (although only to a point -- It's
possible to engineer around the problem)

I'm not really interested in an incremental backup myself, just an
initial backup, and a second with a subset of apps installed, the
machine joined to my domain, a few other things like that. Beyond that,
I use policies to push most of my configuration options and some apps,
and have my own synchronization tool that installs the stuff I can't
push in a policy.

However, that's a fair enough explanation, thanks!
Click to expand...
 
"Copy-on-write" is Volume ShadowCopy (VSS) terminology. Complete PC Backup
uses shadow copies to store the incremental changes to .vhd file. These
updates are stored in a hidden area on your hard disk. This area is
configurable and can only hold so many shadow copies. Once the area fills,
oldest shadow copies are purged. The more changes on the volume, the more
quickly those older shadow copies will be purged. From what the developer
explained, the act of compressing a .vhd causes it to change more from
version to version. We want to avoid having those older shadow copies
purged, so we don't compress the .vhd on hard disks.

You can find explanations of "copy-on-write" in the Technical Reference at
http://technet2.microsoft.com/Windo...b7d8-42c3-b6c9-59c145b7765f1033.mspx?mfr=true.
Some google searching also turns up good hits. I'll ask the VSS team if they
can give a step-by-step description of what happens.

Here's a link to our blog for more info on shadow copies:
http://blogs.technet.com/filecab/ar...used-for-restore-points-in-windows-vista.aspx.

I can't speak for Acronis--do they use VSS?
 
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