trackball use

[spacemarine]

i am trying out a used Microsoft Trackball Explorer, which ive read
many positive reviews about. previously ive used a logitech thumb-
trackball for many months (i know those bother some people, but i
didnt mind it because it allowed my wrist to lay flat, like a normal
mouse, rather than requiring "propping up" like some of the larger
trackball units).

i like the trackball explorer's low profile, allowing for a flatter
wrist.

in my first day of use, i see the same problem that i had w/ the
logitech -- in order to get good ground-covering rolls, i set the
sensitivity to medium or high. but that makes the point very *jumpy*
at small movements. i can lower it, but further hampering precision is
the ball's rolling resistance -- it seems to stick every-so-slightly
when attempting very small movements.. then it will unstick and jump.
it doesnt appear like its defective or anything..it feels like its
inherant to the nature of the device.

anyone have thoughts, suggestions, etc?


thanks
sm

 

[Vanguard]

i am trying out a used Microsoft Trackball Explorer, which ive read
many positive reviews about. previously ive used a logitech thumb-
trackball for many months (i know those bother some people, but i
didnt mind it because it allowed my wrist to lay flat, like a normal
mouse, rather than requiring "propping up" like some of the larger
trackball units).

i like the trackball explorer's low profile, allowing for a flatter
wrist.

in my first day of use, i see the same problem that i had w/ the
logitech -- in order to get good ground-covering rolls, i set the
sensitivity to medium or high. but that makes the point very *jumpy*
at small movements. i can lower it, but further hampering precision is
the ball's rolling resistance -- it seems to stick every-so-slightly
when attempting very small movements.. then it will unstick and jump.
it doesnt appear like its defective or anything..it feels like its
inherant to the nature of the device.

anyone have thoughts, suggestions, etc?


thanks
sm

Tis the problem when using friction bearings instead of ball bearings.
I've tried several trackballs and found almost all of them way too
sticky for very small movement. You're trying to move a pixel, the ball
doesn't move or it slides over the roller without moving the roller, and
then all of a sudden it moves and you move way too far. If the
application allows, zoom in to overcompensate for the lack of low
granularity in the trackball's movement. Changing the acceleration
doesn't help because when trying to move a single pixel there is very
little physical acceleration to dampen its logical acceleration.

Probably the best is the Kensington trackball with its ball bearing
pivots but it probably incurs the "lift" that you mention due to the
size of the ball (note that not all Kensinton trackballs have ball
bearing pivots; I don't like their Orbit trackball as it has cheap
roller bearings and has more resistance, and I'm not sure their latest
ExpertMouse still uses ball bearings). Even then and with a brand new
Kensington ball-bearing trackball, you can still realize the "jump" at
extremely small movement. I haven't heard of any that use air jets to
constantly float the ball (so there is no friction other than maybe with
the air) and use LEDs to detect movement of the ball. So zooming in so
you can use larger movements of the ball is probably your best bet for
extremely fine [logical] movement.

I liked some of the designs of the Logitech but found their balls had
too much friction and their ball was too lightweight. I'm used to
giving a shove to the ball and have it spin on its own (i.e., low
friction). An advantage with the Kensington is that I can go to a
billiards supplier and get a snooker ball to replace the ball if it gets
scratched or lost (kids will take anything).

 

[Ken Maltby]

i am trying out a used Microsoft Trackball Explorer, which ive read
many positive reviews about. previously ive used a logitech thumb-
trackball for many months (i know those bother some people, but i
didnt mind it because it allowed my wrist to lay flat, like a normal
mouse, rather than requiring "propping up" like some of the larger
trackball units).

i like the trackball explorer's low profile, allowing for a flatter
wrist.

in my first day of use, i see the same problem that i had w/ the
logitech -- in order to get good ground-covering rolls, i set the
sensitivity to medium or high. but that makes the point very *jumpy*
at small movements. i can lower it, but further hampering precision is
the ball's rolling resistance -- it seems to stick every-so-slightly
when attempting very small movements.. then it will unstick and jump.
it doesnt appear like its defective or anything..it feels like its
inherant to the nature of the device.

anyone have thoughts, suggestions, etc?


thanks
sm

I use a MS Trackball Optical 1.0 and I remember
having to give the ball a sharp tap to set the support
pins in a little, in order to get it rolling smoothly.
( Take all Internet advice as, "to be applied at your
own risk".)

My only problem with this one is the occasional hair
that gets drawn into the laser path, causing an erratic
response. Then I have to pop out the ball and fish
the hair out, easier than it sounds.

I had to do a lot more to maintain my Logitech
Marbles, and keep them rolling smoothly.

Luck;
Ken

 

[darklight]

i am trying out a used Microsoft Trackball Explorer, which ive read
many positive reviews about. previously ive used a logitech thumb-
trackball for many months (i know those bother some people, but i
didnt mind it because it allowed my wrist to lay flat, like a normal
mouse, rather than requiring "propping up" like some of the larger
trackball units).

i like the trackball explorer's low profile, allowing for a flatter
wrist.

in my first day of use, i see the same problem that i had w/ the
logitech -- in order to get good ground-covering rolls, i set the
sensitivity to medium or high. but that makes the point very *jumpy*
at small movements. i can lower it, but further hampering precision is
the ball's rolling resistance -- it seems to stick every-so-slightly
when attempting very small movements.. then it will unstick and jump.
it doesnt appear like its defective or anything..it feels like its
inherant to the nature of the device.

anyone have thoughts, suggestions, etc?


thanks
sm

Tis the problem when using friction bearings instead of ball bearings.
I've tried several trackballs and found almost all of them way too
sticky for very small movement. You're trying to move a pixel, the ball
doesn't move or it slides over the roller without moving the roller, and
then all of a sudden it moves and you move way too far. If the
application allows, zoom in to overcompensate for the lack of low
granularity in the trackball's movement. Changing the acceleration
doesn't help because when trying to move a single pixel there is very
little physical acceleration to dampen its logical acceleration.

Probably the best is the Kensington trackball with its ball bearing
pivots but it probably incurs the "lift" that you mention due to the
size of the ball (note that not all Kensinton trackballs have ball
bearing pivots; I don't like their Orbit trackball as it has cheap
roller bearings and has more resistance, and I'm not sure their latest
ExpertMouse still uses ball bearings). Even then and with a brand new
Kensington ball-bearing trackball, you can still realize the "jump" at
extremely small movement. I haven't heard of any that use air jets to
constantly float the ball (so there is no friction other than maybe with
the air) and use LEDs to detect movement of the ball. So zooming in so
you can use larger movements of the ball is probably your best bet for
extremely fine [logical] movement.

I liked some of the designs of the Logitech but found their balls had
too much friction and their ball was too lightweight. I'm used to
giving a shove to the ball and have it spin on its own (i.e., low
friction). An advantage with the Kensington is that I can go to a
billiards supplier and get a snooker ball to replace the ball if it gets
scratched or lost (kids will take anything).

what logitec trackball were you using i have been using the trackman for
five years with out any problems

 

[spacemarine]

Probably the best is the Kensington trackball with its ball bearing
pivots but it probably incurs the "lift" that you mention due to the
size of the ball (note that not all Kensinton trackballs have ball
bearing pivots; I don't like their Orbit trackball as it has cheap
roller bearings and has more resistance, and I'm not sure their latest
ExpertMouse still uses ball bearings).

interesting. heres what one reviewer said about their latest expert
mouse:

"For the first hour or so, the Expert Mouse was a little on the stiff
side. Lifting the ball out, I notice that the ball rolls on tiny mini
wheels. After the first hour, the stiffness is gone, and it rolls
almost effortlessly"

....wheels. hmm. i may try to find one and give it a shot.


thanks,
sm

 

[Vanguard]

in message

what logitec trackball were you using i have been using the trackman
for
five years with out any problems

Pick one, any one. Logitech's have too much friction - for MY taste.
None of them can you slap the ball and have it spin on its own for more
than maybe a quarter rotation.

 

[darklight]

in message



Pick one, any one. Logitech's have too much friction - for MY taste.
None of them can you slap the ball and have it spin on its own for more
than maybe a quarter rotation.

my track ball spins i can spin it so the pointer can travel from one end of
the screen to the other i have been using it for five years.
I have a 17" widescreen

 

[Ken Maltby]

in message



Pick one, any one. Logitech's have too much friction - for MY taste. None
of them can you slap the ball and have it spin on its own for more than
maybe a quarter rotation.

Most users would probably settle for a smooth operating
pointer, without any jerkiness and a good resolution. What
possible use is a free spinning pointer? A certain amount of
resistance is helpful for fine control.

( And I think this is the wrong NG to be talking about
slapping your balls around.)

Luck;
Ken

 

[Vanguard]

Most users would probably settle for a smooth operating
pointer, without any jerkiness and a good resolution. What
possible use is a free spinning pointer?

Less resistance to movement means less effort to move it to start with
and after friction reduces after movement starts (but with a far less
drop-off in the after-movement-starts friction).

Gee, now why would a ball that keeps spinning after letting go have a
use? Could it be, say, um, games? For moving a cursor around a fixed
size screen, the original mouse that was made out of a block of wood,
nails, and a ping-pong ball would do. Now try having to keep lifting
your finger to keep shoving the ball (or mouse) to move forward through
an infinite axis that has no physical barrier, like the fixed size of
"screen". Even if all the ball did was turn you in a direction, it
certainly is easier to spin the ball than have to move with your fingers
only to realize that you didn't rotate far enough and have to push the
ball again rather than spin it and then lay your fingers down when you
want the turning to stop.

But then some people claim that they like heavier wireless mice than the
lighter corded ones although their mouse never leaves the confines of
the mouse pad or its equivalent area. Maybe some slow-typing users
prefer keyboards with much stiffer springs or membranes that require
harder pushing. From what I read in the OP's post, he didn't like even
what you might think is the minimal friction that is inherent in that
trackball. There are *smoother* trackballs. I don't recall talking to
anyone before that would equate smoother with more resistance.

A certain amount of
resistance is helpful for fine control.

No such thing as a no-resistance trackball, even if it were floating on
jets of air. Note that the larger ball with more mass (and along with
less resistance) would also tend to keep in motion.

I'm sure Ajax would provide finer granularity in moving a wet rag across
your television screen but you won't like the results. I do computers
all day and evening. I don't dig ditches so I don't have tight muscles
and the incumbent problem of reduced dexterity or granularity in fine
movement control. But I am getting older and the joints more stiff plus
more wise as to where and when I want to expend my energies, and mice or
trackballs with the *least* friction is my preference. However, I'm not
yet planning to implant a BMI into my brain so I only have to think
about doing movement control in the computer.

( And I think this is the wrong NG to be talking about
slapping your balls around.)

Nope, not into masochism. Or increased finger or wrist fatigue, either.

 

[Ken Maltby]

Less resistance to movement means less effort to move it to start with and
after friction reduces after movement starts (but with a far less drop-off
in the after-movement-starts friction).

Gee, now why would a ball that keeps spinning after letting go have a use?
Could it be, say, um, games? For moving a cursor around a fixed size
screen, the original mouse that was made out of a block of wood, nails,
and a ping-pong ball would do. Now try having to keep lifting your finger
to keep shoving the ball (or mouse) to move forward through an infinite
axis that has no physical barrier, like the fixed size of "screen". Even
if all the ball did was turn you in a direction, it certainly is easier to
spin the ball than have to move with your fingers only to realize that you
didn't rotate far enough and have to push the ball again rather than spin
it and then lay your fingers down when you want the turning to stop.

You might want to consider a joystick, for such games. For FPS and
RTS games being able to point at an exact point, quickly is much more
important.

No such thing as a no-resistance trackball, even if it were floating on
jets of air. Note that the larger ball with more mass (and along with
less resistance) would also tend to keep in motion.

<<Clip, more snide misdirection.)

It really sounds as if you should get rid of your mouse and use
a joystick, if those are your concerns. They continue to scroll in
a direction until you bring the stick back from a direction.

Luck;
Ken

 

[kony]

Less resistance to movement means less effort to move it to start with
and after friction reduces after movement starts (but with a far less
drop-off in the after-movement-starts friction).

True until a point, that point being the user's ability to
manipulate their digits in very fine increments. Once that
point is reached, control will be more precise if it is
harder to spin than if it were infinitely (frictionless)
easy. IMO, to many people it will matter more how large the
ball is, larger being easier, but with it larger that will
tend to make it more important that the effort:mass ratio is
lower than with a smaller ball.

The mass issue has another implication, that some will want
a more massive ball that may require more effort to start
but then the mass causes it to continue rotating longer.

Gee, now why would a ball that keeps spinning after letting go have a
use? Could it be, say, um, games? For moving a cursor around a fixed
size screen, the original mouse that was made out of a block of wood,
nails, and a ping-pong ball would do. Now try having to keep lifting
your finger to keep shoving the ball (or mouse) to move forward through
an infinite axis that has no physical barrier, like the fixed size of
"screen".

For the old crudely controlled arcade games using a very
large ball I would tend to agree. Centipede for example.
On a modern PC game with a smaller ball I don't feel people
are as often taking their fingers or hand off the ball to
let it free-wheel, spin, rather keeping a constant contact
to the ball with their hand. Certainly not everyone would,
but then everyone doesn't like using balls at all either and
everyone is not playing the same game nor does everyone have
the same dexterity.

Even if all the ball did was turn you in a direction, it
certainly is easier to spin the ball than have to move with your fingers
only to realize that you didn't rotate far enough and have to push the
ball again rather than spin it and then lay your fingers down when you
want the turning to stop.

But then some people claim that they like heavier wireless mice than the
lighter corded ones although their mouse never leaves the confines of
the mouse pad or its equivalent area. Maybe some slow-typing users
prefer keyboards with much stiffer springs or membranes that require
harder pushing.

It can be the opposite, a fast typist needs more tactile
feedback so they're not waiting for a response from the
screen but can *assume* that when the keypress was felt, it
was enough. I don't mean very hard to press keys though,
that would be most appropriate for someone who had tained on
an old manual or early electric typewriter to merely
reproduce that level of feedback.

From what I read in the OP's post, he didn't like even
what you might think is the minimal friction that is inherent in that
trackball. There are *smoother* trackballs. I don't recall talking to
anyone before that would equate smoother with more resistance.


No such thing as a no-resistance trackball, even if it were floating on
jets of air. Note that the larger ball with more mass (and along with
less resistance) would also tend to keep in motion.

True but it can still mean a certain amount of resistance
that is more than the bare minimum possible. Remember that
it does have some finite mass and as such, it not only takes
effort to start it moving, it also takes effort to stop it
moving. A freely spinning large ball is not going to be
very precise at all if it makes more than a fraction of a
revolution before coming to a stop, unless the speed of the
*cursor* was very slow which is then causing the need to
spin it more but it is not necessarily the user's goal to
achieve this if they had good dexterity.

 

[Vanguard]

You might want to consider a joystick, for such games. For FPS and
RTS games being able to point at an exact point, quickly is much more
important.

Way, WAY, W-A-Y too slow a device interface. I used to use joysticks.
I thought using a mouse was dumb, until I actually started using a mouse
and realized how much faster a response I could get. The joystick went
into a drawer and I'm not sure I even have it anymore.

 

[Vanguard]

True until a point, that point being the user's ability to
manipulate their digits in very fine increments. Once that
point is reached, control will be more precise if it is
harder to spin than if it were infinitely (frictionless)
easy. IMO, to many people it will matter more how large the
ball is, larger being easier, but with it larger that will
tend to make it more important that the effort:mass ratio is
lower than with a smaller ball.

The mass issue has another implication, that some will want
a more massive ball that may require more effort to start
but then the mass causes it to continue rotating longer.





For the old crudely controlled arcade games using a very
large ball I would tend to agree. Centipede for example.
On a modern PC game with a smaller ball I don't feel people
are as often taking their fingers or hand off the ball to
let it free-wheel, spin, rather keeping a constant contact
to the ball with their hand. Certainly not everyone would,
but then everyone doesn't like using balls at all either and
everyone is not playing the same game nor does everyone have
the same dexterity.




It can be the opposite, a fast typist needs more tactile
feedback so they're not waiting for a response from the
screen but can *assume* that when the keypress was felt, it
was enough. I don't mean very hard to press keys though,
that would be most appropriate for someone who had tained on
an old manual or early electric typewriter to merely
reproduce that level of feedback.



True but it can still mean a certain amount of resistance
that is more than the bare minimum possible. Remember that
it does have some finite mass and as such, it not only takes
effort to start it moving, it also takes effort to stop it
moving. A freely spinning large ball is not going to be
very precise at all if it makes more than a fraction of a
revolution before coming to a stop, unless the speed of the
*cursor* was very slow which is then causing the need to
spin it more but it is not necessarily the user's goal to
achieve this if they had good dexterity.

The larger mass with its inherent momentum gives me the "minimal
resistance" mentioned. The ability for it to keep spinning means I can
lift my fingers and then use them as an instant brake for fast and
accurate control. However, I do get stuck using a mouse on several
hosts and there it's just the opposite that I prefer: a lightweight
mouse. This is due to the repeated lifting and respositioning of the
mouse which is always required unless you disable acceleration;
otherwise, the mouse will always get off-center from its starting
position, but too often there isn't enough desk space to not use
acceleration.

 

[spacemarine]

You might want to consider a joystick, for such games. For FPS and
RTS games being able to point at an exact point, quickly is much more
important.

are you are suggesting a joystick for FPS or RTS games? if so, you are
no gamer. joysticks (? gampads?) are good for very few genres.

a well-functioning mouse or trackball is what you need for FPS. and
you *definately* need pixel-accuracy. thus, a jerky trackball sucks.
as-is, i will still have to use a mouse for them (same for detailed
photoshop work). thus my OP.

<<Clip, snide misdirection.>>

odd, i didnt detect any snideness at all. just stating preferences and
opinions. which is, after all, what i asked for in my OP.


sm

 

[Ken Maltby]

are you are suggesting a joystick for FPS or RTS games? if so, you are
no gamer. joysticks (? gampads?) are good for very few genres.

a well-functioning mouse or trackball is what you need for FPS. and
you *definately* need pixel-accuracy. thus, a jerky trackball sucks.
as-is, i will still have to use a mouse for them (same for detailed
photoshop work). thus my OP.

No, that was a reply to Vanguard's search for a free spinning
trackball, so that he could continuously scroll through a large
map. I was pointing out that for FPS and RTS the normal
non-spinning mouse/trackball with their "being able to point
at an exact point, quickly is much more important." Also,
later in that reply I said: "It really sounds as if you should get
rid of your mouse and use a joystick, if those are your concerns.
They continue to scroll in a direction until you bring the stick
back from a direction." This would be a more practical than
looking for a free spinning mouse or trackball.

I do detailed graphic manipulations with a trackball, and
yes I also play a number of games. There is no way I could
work with a "jerky trackball". You could try a little research
on your own. Try a Google of "mouse speed tweak" without
the quotes.

Luck;
Ken

 

[spacemarine]

at an exact point, quickly is much more important." Also,
later in that reply I said: "It really sounds as if you should get
rid of your mouse and use a joystick, if those are your concerns.
They continue to scroll in a direction until you bring the stick
back from a direction." This would be a more practical than
looking for a free spinning mouse or trackball.

i still dont think you get what hes talking about. we're talking about
the ability to set a tb spinning, w/ it continue to spin a bit, so
that it will advance the map (or in a fps, continue your avatar's
pivot) *without* requiring you to constantly keep it going w/ your
fingers.

but anyway.

work with a "jerky trackball". You could try a little research
on your own. Try a Google of "mouse speed tweak" without
the quotes.

no software would be able to remove my Trackball Explorer's friction
jerks -- they are inherent to its non-ball bearing points of contact,
im guessing. upping the motion speed would only further hinder
precision at small movements. (my problem is that, even w/ my motion
slider set to slow, pixel-precision is impossible at normal non-zoom,
due to my trackball's friction jerks. simply, it sticks. thats
physical.

im going to try a kenstington expertmouse -- however their lame indian-
outsourced customer service people have yet to be able to tell me
whether it has ball bearings as their previous models did. there are
none in my physical proximity, so i must continue to do research
online.


sm

 

[Vanguard]

i still dont think you get what hes talking about. we're talking about
the ability to set a tb spinning, w/ it continue to spin a bit, so
that it will advance the map (or in a fps, continue your avatar's
pivot) *without* requiring you to constantly keep it going w/ your
fingers.

but anyway.


no software would be able to remove my Trackball Explorer's friction
jerks -- they are inherent to its non-ball bearing points of contact,
im guessing. upping the motion speed would only further hinder
precision at small movements. (my problem is that, even w/ my motion
slider set to slow, pixel-precision is impossible at normal non-zoom,
due to my trackball's friction jerks. simply, it sticks. thats
physical.

im going to try a kenstington expertmouse -- however their lame
indian-
outsourced customer service people have yet to be able to tell me
whether it has ball bearings as their previous models did. there are
none in my physical proximity, so i must continue to do research
online.

Even if the trackball is relatively new, you need to keep your fingers
clean but there is still some dirt and oil on your fingers when you
using the trackball. Have you removed the ball to inspect the
rubberized contacts on the roller pins and check for debris around the
shutter through which the LED passes? In other words, have you tried
cleaning it?

There are some cleaners for rubber rollers which not only cleans the
rubber but also replaces the solvent used to keep the rubber pliant. I
had some for laser printers. It's hard to find. Don't use
isopropyl-based cleaners as they dry out the rubber.

Because you touch the ball, it can get dirty and so, too, the rollers
just like when using a male mouse (i.e., one that has a ball versus
female mice that have no balls).

 

[kony]

Even if the trackball is relatively new, you need to keep your fingers
clean but there is still some dirt and oil on your fingers when you
using the trackball. Have you removed the ball to inspect the
rubberized contacts on the roller pins and check for debris around the
shutter through which the LED passes? In other words, have you tried
cleaning it?

Are there still mechanical trackballs? I had presumed they
were all optical by now. Mine definitely is.

 

[Ken Maltby]

Are there still mechanical trackballs? I had presumed they
were all optical by now. Mine definitely is.

As are mine and the OP's old Logitech "thumb-trackball"
(I have a few of those as well, mine are "Marbles") none of
them have "rollers" of any kind. For the Logitech Marbles
there are three nylon pins/posts that the ball glides over.
For my MS Trackball Optical 1.0 the ball glides over three
steel posts.

As has been mentioned the ball and the posts must be kept
clean. With the Logitech I had to remove a locking ring to
remove the ball and clean the posts. With the MS I just push
the ball out through a hole in the bottom of the trackball (past
a couple of plastic bumps that prevent the ball from falling out
if I were to pick up the whole trackball and turn it.) In addition
to it being easier to clean, the MS ball seems to be staying a
lot cleaner than the Logitech did. As I said, I need a "jerk
free" pointer, that can be useful for graphic touchups at up to
pixel level ( but you don't do that without some zoom, and it
is a matter of using as little zoom as you can so that you can
cover a larger area. ).

One thing that I had to do to get it really smooth was to tap
the ball in a little. My guess is that it was a little too tight against
the plastic bumps, as it came from the factory. The tap probably
pushed the steel posts in just a little.

Luck;
Ken

 

[Vanguard]

in message

Are there still mechanical trackballs? I had presumed they
were all optical by now. Mine definitely is.

The ball in the trackball still has to ride on something. I've not seen
any that are suspended on air jets. The rollers on which the ball rides
will collect dirt. Doesn't matter if they are pins with rubberized
contact areas or steel rollers with ball bearings. What's on the ball
will contact the pins or rollers on which the ball rides. The sensors
are often in the same area.