The FREE .Net Framework means NOTHING IF SQL SERVER...........

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SQL Server is easy to use....

Yet, "Easy-to-Use" is NOT IMPORTANT if it's not "Easy to AFFORD".....

Moreover, those who need it to be easy to use (those who don't have a
Fortune 500 IT staff)...need it to be easy to AFFORD.


***THE CATCH 22 ***
What good is a Free .NET Framework and a low cost Windows 2003 Server-Web
Edition, if SQL Server costs more than the server and ISP network connection
and amount to at sometimes at least 50% of the total costs when developers
have had to drop their hourly rate in half?

ANSWER: change your SQL Server licensing policies to be more friendly to mom
and pops instead having them run to PHP and MySql because they are not going
to MS Access after they have had PHP running nice and fine and then do a
port to sql server. Because they, MOM and POP and startup company are going
to be HAPPY with MySql and PHP and are NOT going to pay GOBS of money to do
an entire PORT when (by the time they really NEED a faster system) they
could just buy a faster computer.

PERIOD.....


Dear Microsoft and the Marketing department,

There can only be 500 companies in the Fortune 500....

That's why MySql and PHP are so hot right now......

Do not think that the developer and entreprenuer don't have to sit down and
total up the costs? And then see what the cost are for SQL Server and see
how they can double the total costs.

Don't have the CEO look at the licensing cost on the Microsoft SQL Server
page, their eyes will roll as the developer IS NOT going to be at the CEO's
side 24 hours a day.
 
Microsoft has listened to me before...they do LISTEN..that is a known fact,
even on huge architectural issues...even twice, in one form or another.
 
Be gone peasant! Microsoft doesn't care if you can't afford their products.
If you find it too expensive go and use an alternative (I'm sure there must
be something out there).

Nick.

--
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
"No matter. Whatever the outcome, you are changed."

Fergus - September 5th 2003
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
 
If MSDE was SO USABLE in a PRODUCTION ENVIRONMENT, why do a majority of
startups use PHP and MySQL?

IT'S because of the LICENSING AGREEMENT and a few other things........

MSDE is not seen as financial equivalent with the web version of Windows
2003 server.....

No one goes into a startup without DREAMS and knowing there is a long
haul.....hence, entrepreneurs look at the cost of a REAL license of SQL
Server, whether today or a year from now......

They want to own something and NOT be tied down financially to a several
thousand dollar SQL server license when they can get PHP and MySql for free
and that WILL LAST THEM...and IT WILL MAKE IT REALLY HARD TO SWITCH......


WHY DO YOU THINK THERE IS A Windows 2000 Server - Web Edition?


WHY WHY WHY? is it just to put up static HTML pages? NO YOU IDIOT!!!!
Anyone who wanted to do that should just host it for 4 bucks a month if it's
just static HTML....

OF COURSE THEY WANT A DATABASE so they can DO NEAT WEB STUFF WITH THEIR
Windows 2000 Server - Web Edition
that they paid for.

Why would I even need .NET or a developer then if all I wanted to do is
serve up static HTML page?


It's no wonder why developers are out of work, they have NO concept of what
it takes to start a real or traditional business.
 
That was his point, that anyone that recommends MSDE is a dumb@ss <that's
not what I'm saying to you, but read his other post and you'll see what I
mean>
 
i can't find his other post...i'm trying to give you the benefit of the
doubt and actually try to gain another perspective about msde...before
ripping you a new one! there's nothing wrong w/ msde and i don't consider
myself to be in the intellectual category you ascribe to those who recommend
it as a fantastic alternative to a full-blown version of sql server. the
only down-side i've encountered is not having help file support or a tool
like the enterprise manager for sql server. i've downloaded source code for
an msde enterprise manager found on plant-source code (of all unlikely
places for good source code). it has all the features i've ever needed to
use w/ sql server, just a different ui. so all i'm really missing is
built-in help. if your problem is being limited to 10 connections...nothing
that mts can't overcome...people have been writing software for years that
enables shared connections. there's really no issue there either if you keep
this in the context of mom/pop size companies. why don't you just fill us in
with some valid issues that make your statement a little less offensive to
the rest of us.

what's the deal w/ recommending msde...more importantly, what's your problem
that makes you dump on people like me who do? i don't think i deserve the
condemnation.

steve
 
Steve:

Not sure I understand....I must have miscommunicated. I didn't dump on
anyone other than him. I was Defending MSDE. I think you have us confused,
but your reference is to my post. Please though, I think you're missing the
issue, and that was a flat out assualt by him on anyone who doesn't think MS
is Evil and that SQL Server sux compared to MySql. I totally appreciate
your restraint, but my friend, I assure you, I insulted no one other than
him, and If I did by accident, I apologize. I recommend and professionally
deploy MSDE and make a decent living doing it....I wasn't dumping on anyone
who did...and if it came off that way, I assure you it was a mistake. Sorry
for any misunderstanding....but I honestly wasn't dumping on you or anyone
other than people that think MySQL is the only way to go and everyone else
is stupid. And I like MySQL, I just dont' think it's the answer to
everything.


Bill
 
yeah...i didn't catch it. i thought you were bashing anyone doing anything
w/ ms products. i suppose i should have directed it to the correct person.
sorry 'bout that. it would be so nice if people would just realize that
every tool has its place in the shed. use what works for the job you need
done.

best wishes.
 
PLEASE READ THE ORIGINAL POST MORE CLOSELY.

Put yourself in the Mom and Pop shoes and CHECKBOOK and see how the
developer is going to get their business?

....how can they do a small site THAT'S for PRODUCTION when SQL Server is
going to eat up 50% of the total costs of like a $2000 to $4000 dollar site
just to get it running with a simple fill in form...if they want to go and
upgrade...they are looking at UNKNOWN numbers for the client license in
regards to performance.

JUST how and what is the .NET developer going to Mom and Pop when PHP/MySQL
developer is always going to beat them on price when the Mom and pop DON'T
have to RISK and ARM AND A LEG for something that might not pan out.

It clearly one of the FINANCIAL bottlenecks when you buy Windows Server
2003 - Web Edition and THEN compare PRICES......


By making a small SQL Server licensing change, it will make a lot of
people's lives easier...It will also make the mom and pop happier knowing
that the INVESTMENT they original made can BE EASILY used by a just simple
upgrade to like a Standard Editon of SQL 2K....INSTEAD OF a BUGGY as well as
COSTLY PORT


As an MVP, please pay attention next time.
 
Moreover, those who need it to be easy to use (those who don't have a
Check out MSDE which is basically SQL Server but with some throttling to
prevent too many concurrent users and a couple of GB's of database in size.
You can run MSDE for free unless you connect it to another SQL Server but in
your instance I don't think you'd need to do that.

SQL Server processor licence is around $4,000 which is very reasonable
considering what you get - engine, client tools, analysis services,
notification services, replication and possibly soon reporting services. I'm
not sure PHP and MySQL supply these as part of the product.

If you are looking for an enterprise solution, SQL Server runs on a PDA,
laptop, desktop, server and 64bit servers now and you still use the same
syntax, tools etc... regardless, not sure if MySQL has that offering.

There is tons of information and numerous websites giving SQL Server and
..NET FREE support, unfortunetly there seems to be very few doing MySQL and
PHP.

There are considerably more training DBA / Developers that can develop using
..NET and SQL Server that MySQL and PHP giving a likelyhood of finding good
quality developers at a reduced price.

SQL Server, Oracle, DB2 all appear in the TPC benchmarks that highlight the
stability of a product not to mention its scalability, MySQL has never
figured which is disappointing but possibly reflects its position in the
marketplace.

Many more startups are using SQL Server and .NET / ASP in the first place
rather than other products because there is so much FREE support out there
and its easy to get development resource. The technology also offers a real
rapid way of producing a web application and modifying it as the business
moves - thats been the biggest problem with technologies such as PHP and
MySQL is that they are just not flexible enough to move with the business at
the speed the business requires in order to stay competitive.

PHP and MySQL has a place, and that place exists (i believe) with the linix
world, having said that it competes with the likes of Oracle and DB2,
however, both of those products are very expensive compared to SQL Server
and don't offer anywhere near as much functionality for instance, you have
to buy OLAP/analysis services seperately at great expense.

Looking again at costs, is PHP and MySQL really FREE? How many more man
hours does it take to code and test and support the environment, how many
more developers and/or DBA's are required?
 
I don't understand why you cannot use MSDE?

MSDE is essentially SQL Server but with some throttles to control the
maximum number of concurrent active sessions and a maxium database size,
this should be sufficient for a lot of small to medium websites with a
couple of hits per second, anything greater will need the full blown SQL
Server but by then you'd be earning plenty of dosh through your site anyway.

I think Windows 2003 Server web edition is only a couple of hundred £, if
used inconjunction with MSDE which is free then what is the problem?

List the benefits the SQL Server platform gives....

1. MSDE is FREE
2. Win 2003 Web is only a couple of hundred quid, intel server from about
£500 and you are off on your own server.
3. Better FREELY available support (checking MySQL site standard support
starts at $1500 which is half the cost of a full blown SQL licence).
4. More DBA's with better recognised training (more training houses
giving SQL Server/Microsoft training).
5. You have a sclable platform you can very easily move (no migration
cost) from MSDE to SQL Server standard.

I think you aren't picking up that MSDE is actually SQL Server (same code
base) but with some throttles to keep at the low end with the migration path
to SQL standard or enterprise.

Just one question really, why are you so against MSDE?
 
Microsoft has listened to me before...they do LISTEN..that is a known
fact,
even on huge architectural issues...even twice, in one form or another.
Click to expand...

Okay sure, Microsoft are going to reduce the price of SQL just for you are
they?

Nick.

--
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
"No matter. Whatever the outcome, you are changed."

Fergus - September 5th 2003
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
 
It's probably better to quote the important points from Microsoft's site on
this matter....

MSDE.....
http://www.microsoft.com/sql/msde/howtobuy/msdeuse.asp

Q. Can I obtain MSDE for use in Web-based applications without
purchasing any Microsoft products or services?

A. ASP.NET Web Matrix enables you to distribute MSDE for Web-based
applications. ASP.NET Web Matrix* is available for download at no charge.

* When obtained by downloading ASP.NET Web Matrix, MSDE is provided
only for use in conjunction with an application developed by using ASP.NET
Web Matrix.


Q. Can I use SQL Server tools and services in conjunction with MSDE?


A. You can only use SQL Server tools and services in conjunction with
MSDE if you acquired MSDE through SQL Server 2000 (Developer Edition,
Standard Edition, or Enterprise Edition), and if you are using MSDE in
conjunction with a properly licensed copy of SQL Server 2000. Visit the How
to Buy page for information on obtaining a valid SQL Server license.

The following utilities are installed by the MSDE setup application
and are provided without restrictions for use with the copy of MSDE that is
installed by your application: bcp.exe, cnfgsvr.exe, dcomscm.exe, osql.exe,
sqlmaint.exe, sqlmangr.exe, scm.exe, sqladhlp.exe, and svrnetcn.exe. The
dtsrun.exe utility is also provided, but can only be used to run existing
Data Transformation Services (DTS) packages against the copy of MSDE
installed by your application; it cannot be used to develop new DTS
packages.

Note: The following Visual Studio family of products also include the
right to use and redistribute MSDE in this scenario: Microsoft Visual Basic®
..NET, Visual C#® .NET, Visual C++® .NET, and Visual J#® .NET.



--------------
In summary....

Pay $49 and you get the SQL tools and get to use MSDE, the tools will make
it easier for you to write stored procedures, optimise queries etc...
OR
Download ASP.NET Web Matrix (FREE) and you can use MSDE from that (FREE)

MSDE is SQL Server but with some throttles.

NILL effort migration path to SQL Server standard edition (the MDF, LDF
files from MSDE databases are SQL Server files that can be attached to SQL
Server).

Tony.
 
To be honest Tony I think he's just an idiot trying to make himself look big
by shouting a lot about nothing in particular and about something he is
obviously ignorant about (not to mention the crossposting). He's already had
his question answered several times.

1. If your site is actually getting enough hits to warrant MSDE being
insufficient then SQL server suddenly looks very cheap for the
performance/support/features supplied.
2. If the site isn't getting massive hits (as in MOM & POP - what the
hell is that all about anyway?) then MSDE is easily sufficient and extremely
well supported.
3. If you know mySQL/like it/don't mind putting up with some of its
idiosyncrancies/have a Linux box serving the site etc. etc. then by all
means use it. Just stop bleating about it. And what the hell are you on
about anyway? You can barely write a newsgroup post correctly let alone get
Microsoft to listen to you about architectural changes.

I hope this shuts you up (and apologies to everyone else for sounding more
than a little annoyed)
Kieran
 
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