The dreaded "Lock out" Dialogue box

[Guest]

Imagine this if you will. Good machine (AMD FX62 etc); XP Pro installed;
Vista Ultimate installed (Total cost of machine and OS software say $5000US.)

Vista is a clean install on a dual boot system (32 bit Vista). First
headache - no support for MPU 410. Next headache - none of the anti-spyware
software from XP appears to work but, of course, there is always Defender.
Next headache - nice piece of Internet Security Software supposed to be Vista
friendly. Installs sweetly but needs a reboot. Shortly after the reboot
and way before the log-in screen a dialogue box appears - you have made an
unauthorised change to Windows or the hardware on your system and you must
revalidate Windows. Options Click Revalidate or Close. Clicking either of
these did absolutely nothing. No helpful messages on screen, just a red box
telling you how naughty you have been to try and load legal software. Next
step - reinstall? How about Safe Mode? Ahhhh but - safe mode won't let
you uninstall if Windows Installer has been involved or will it?

This is painful stuff for an experienced user let alone someone using a PC
for the first time. I have had enough of Mr Gates trying to dictate to me
his terms of use simply because I paid good money for this BS. The world is
full of MS sympathisers and I feel sorry for them all. Vista is not worth
more than $50 of anyone's money - at that price I'd expect some contempt.

 

[Rock]

Imagine this if you will. Good machine (AMD FX62 etc); XP Pro installed;
Vista Ultimate installed (Total cost of machine and OS software say
$5000US.)

Vista is a clean install on a dual boot system (32 bit Vista). First
headache - no support for MPU 410.

I don't know what MPU 410 is, but if it isn't supported in Vista have you
talked with the program vendor?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=mpu+410+vista

Next headache - none of the anti-spyware software from XP appears to work
but, of course, there is always
Defender.

Spybot S&D, Ad-Aware SE Personal, and SpywareBlaster all work in Vista, and
they are free.

Next headache - nice piece of Internet Security Software supposed to be
Vista
friendly. Installs sweetly but needs a reboot. Shortly after the
reboot
and way before the log-in screen a dialogue box appears - you have made an
unauthorised change to Windows or the hardware on your system and you must
revalidate Windows. Options Click Revalidate or Close. Clicking either
of
these did absolutely nothing. No helpful messages on screen, just a red
box
telling you how naughty you have been to try and load legal software.
Next
step - reinstall? How about Safe Mode? Ahhhh but - safe mode won't
let
you uninstall if Windows Installer has been involved or will it?

What Internet security software? If it was Norton anything I wouldn't allow
it near my computer. Why are you installing it? Vista has a firewall,
there are good, free AV programs for it, it has Defender, and there are good
free anti-malware apps available.

This is painful stuff for an experienced user let alone someone using a PC
for the first time. I have had enough of Mr Gates trying to dictate to
me
his terms of use simply because I paid good money for this BS. The world
is
full of MS sympathisers and I feel sorry for them all. Vista is not worth
more than $50 of anyone's money - at that price I'd expect some contempt.

Vista has it's problems but what you have documented here is a a problem
with 3rd party software. Complain to the software vendor.

 

[Guest]

:

I don't know what MPU 410 is, but if it isn't supported in Vista have you
talked with the program vendor?

And neither does Vista know what it is looking for - it lamely suggests,
device manager - that there is an unknown device that it cannot tell me
anything about. I have deduced that it is something on the motherboard (a 6
months old ASUS motherboard). Motherboard drivers do not solve the problem
and neither does removing the device. Vista goes through its oh so
comforting "don't worry yourself I am communicating with my master and he
knows everything" routine before giving up! I am sorry but this is more of
the same from Microsoft.

As for the Internet software here we go again - its everyone else's problem
except MS. My complaint is about the lack of assistance Vista gives. So
the 3rd party software may be errant - does that give MS the right to lock me
out? Of course it doesn't. It would be helpful Rock if people like you
read posts like mine as real world issues not as a patronising "oh here is
another MS basher".

Vista is another contemptuous piece of BS from a company that really hasn't
a clue as to how to serve its customers. And as for comments elsewhere
about MS's offer to give me back my money - try telling that to the Vendor
who sold me this awful OS.

 

[Rock]

:



And neither does Vista know what it is looking for - it lamely suggests,
device manager - that there is an unknown device that it cannot tell me
anything about. I have deduced that it is something on the motherboard (a
6
months old ASUS motherboard). Motherboard drivers do not solve the
problem
and neither does removing the device. Vista goes through its oh so
comforting "don't worry yourself I am communicating with my master and he
knows everything" routine before giving up! I am sorry but this is more
of
the same from Microsoft.

As for the Internet software here we go again - its everyone else's
problem
except MS. My complaint is about the lack of assistance Vista gives. So
the 3rd party software may be errant - does that give MS the right to lock
me
out? Of course it doesn't. It would be helpful Rock if people like you
read posts like mine as real world issues not as a patronising "oh here is
another MS basher".

Vista is another contemptuous piece of BS from a company that really
hasn't
a clue as to how to serve its customers. And as for comments elsewhere
about MS's offer to give me back my money - try telling that to the Vendor
who sold me this awful OS.

I wasn't patronizing you. If you got that impression that's some personal
issue you have. I was pointing out where primary responsibility lies with
3rd party software. Even with a fully mature OS in an installation that is
rock solid I would never be without some means to restore a system from
software or hardware induced disaster. A drive imaging program can return a
system to an operational state quickly. That way when the inevitable
happens with computers, you're ready.

Been using Vista through the Beta, and since November in RTM. It's run well
on this system, but I am prepared for recovery if it doesn't. Moving to a
new OS involves issues of compatibility with hardware and software. The
common sense approach is to expect problems.

Sorry you're disenchanted. It would just seem more productive to put your
energy towards where the issues lie.

MS does have a refund guideline for North America directly through MS.

http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/productrefund/refund.asp

 

[Jane C]

MPU 410 is a Midi device. Both the old Midi and Gameports are no longer
supported in Vista, although a lot of motherboards still have one or the
other or both. They are best disabled in the BIOS.

 

[Richard Urban]

This "nice piece of Internet Security Software supposed to be Vista
friendly" is???

If you are just ranting, don't supply any real information. But, if you
actually want help, tell us the name of the program. It may be that someone
else has had the same problem and has found the answer for this phantom
program.

--


Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User
(For email, remove the obvious from my address)

Quote from George Ankner:
If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!

 

[cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user)]

I don't know what MPU 410 is, but if it isn't supported in Vista have you
talked with the program vendor?

AFAIK, it's a Roland MIDI interface. Let's see what Google says...
OK, looks more like an emulated standard for external MIDI.

You'd prolly need drivers specific to your relevant audio hardware -
what is generically detected as "MPU 410" is more likely to be
specific audio hardware needing specific drivers.

To be clear on this:
- is this Vista32 or Vista64?
- which antispyware were these?
- were you installing them in Vista...
- ...or cross-running them from the XP installation?

Vista64 is tuff; lotsa stuff doesn't work, in my limited experience
with it. Some, but not all, antispyware apps will work without being
installed (thus making them easy to use from Bart CDR); AdAware,
Spybot and A2 are OK, AVG Antispyware and Ewido are not, and I haven't
tried Spyware Blaster under those circumstances.

Spybot S&D, Ad-Aware SE Personal, and SpywareBlaster all work in Vista, and
they are free.

I can verify that, having installed them in Vista32 at least.

Please, you must accurately describe what you are dealing with if you
want anyone to test for repro. WHAT "nice piece of Internet Security
Software" is this? GIGO applies, so unless you just want to vent, you
need to supply non-garbage info if you want non-garbage help.

Once a vendor sinks into vandor status, this sort of nonsense is to be
expected. Product activation and DRM are commercial malware (i.e.
sware that hides from the user to do user-hostile things), and the
vendors that push it are vandors (i.e. are prepared to vandalize your
use of your system if their pre-coded logic ASSumes you are "nasty").

A spade is a spade, and needs to be described as such.

What Internet security software? If it was Norton anything I wouldn't allow
it near my computer. Why are you installing it? Vista has a firewall,
there are good, free AV programs for it, it has Defender, and there are good
free anti-malware apps available.

Vista has it's problems but what you have documented here is a a problem
with 3rd party software. Complain to the software vendor.

You're missing the point, Rock. The point is that Microsoft's license
protection logic is supposed to lock you down on a hardware basis, and
yet it has been tripwired by installing software.

That points to serious problems on the Microsoft side of the fence.
If this is "WAD,WF" (Works As Designed, Won't Fix) then it represents
a problematic policy shift. If it is not WAD, then it represents a
problematic bug. Either way, it's an MS problem.

A spade is a spade, and needs to be described as such.

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The rights you save may be your own

 

[cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user)]

"Rock" wrote:

And neither does Vista know what it is looking for - it lamely suggests,
device manager - that there is an unknown device that it cannot tell me
anything about. I have deduced that it is something on the motherboard (a 6
months old ASUS motherboard).

It's most likely the integrated external MIDI controller. In days
gone by, some sound cards would pass MIDI via the joystick port, for
use with external MIDI keyboards and other devices. AFAIK that
standard's fallen into disuse since the Sound Blaster days.

Windows will ship with a set of known PnP IDs and drivers. When a
device is detected by PnP, it is queried, and it it should provide its
PnP ID. If it's buggy or broken and doesn't, then it will most likely
appear as a broken ("!" Unknown Device.

If it provides a PnP ID that is not specifically known to Windows, it
will either fall into a broader category or generic type (e.g. VGA
controller, generic monitor) or if there's no match at all, it will
appear as an Unknown Device with no drivers.

The difficulty is finding out what the device really is, and you may
have to pop the case and look at chips and whatever text is painted on
the various circuit boards (hint: Use your digital camera on macro
with angled or muted flash).

Once you know the hardware, you can search for Vista drivers for it.
If these exist, then when they're presented to Vista, the device
should appear as properly identified (PnP ID now has a match) and
driven. However, some driver packages must be run as an .EXE, rather
than be reached via Windows PnP.

Motherboard drivers do not solve the problem and neither does
removing the device.

Removing the device will just cause it to be detected again, if
Vista's anything like the Win9x and XP I've experienced in the past.

Instead, you can disable the device. That gets it out of the way and
frees whatever resources it may have grabbed, without causing it to be
re-detected all the time as a "new" device.

So what if the 3rd party software may be errant - does that give MS
the right to lock me out? Of course it doesn't.

Agreed.

XP's product activation was well-studied and documented (if not by MS
themselves), and Vista needs similar scrutiny.

In XP, there are two activation models:
- BIOS locked, as used by "royalty" OEMs
- component-monitored, as used by generic OEMs, retail etc.

In XP, the components were (from memory):
- first detected network adapter MAC address
- first detected SCSI adapter
- first detected IDE adapter
- first detected optical drive
- physical hard drive
- serial number from first detected hard drive partition
- RAM size, as a broad category
- processor type
- processor serial number (Pentium III, if enabled)
- graphics adapter

If more than 4 (or is that 4 or more?) of these "lives" are lost, then
Windows will DoS you, forcing you to activate. Later (after XP SP1)
the LAN adapter was weighted to count for 3 lives.

Some of these "lives" are controversial, in that they are not the pure
hardware items they are supposed to be.

For example, formatting the hard drive or converting it from FATxx to
NTFS is not a hardware change, and yet this invalidates a life.

For another eample, some of these devices will change their hardware
identity if their firmware is updated, e.g. optical drives and SVGA
cards, and whole swathes of devices may appear to change if the
underlying motherboard .inf or drivers are changed.

Some "drivers", such as at least some for Intel graphics, slipstream
in a firmware update along the way, losing a life too.

But until now, we've seen no non-malware software lose lives, let
alone so many lives that the activation state is invalidated.

Vista's said to be more anal in terms of hardware tracking and
component changes, but we NEED DETAILS PLEASE !!

<irrelevant conclusions snipped>

You don't have to convince me TSM (This Stuff Matters), even if Rock
seems to think it doesn't. Let's zoom in on specifics.

--------------- ---- --- -- - - - -

Saws are too hard to use.
Be easier to use!