System Failure - CPU Task

  • Thread starter Thread starter JRS
  • Start date Start date
J

JRS

I have an AMD 3000 on a K8VSE deluxe and it just flickered as if the power
was going and it then started talking to me giving the message in the
subject line. or I think that's what it said!

Never done it before and I've had it 18 months. Seems fine now I've
rebooted.

Am i doomed!
 
Could it have been the power?
You could instal MBM5 and use its PSU voltage logging ability to see if you
are getting spikes / brownouts.
UPS are dead checp these days - perhaps consider getting a true - online
UPS. The real cheap ups will not protect you against mains power glitches, a
true online one will since they run off battery all the time.

So, it could be the mains power or the PSU in your system - this is assuming
the screen (?) flicker was caused by power and not the system.
 
A power supply, properly constructed, must provide DC
voltage unaltered even when AC mains goes so low that
incandescent bulbs dim to less than 40%. This even stated in
Intel ATX power supply specs.

Furthermore, it makes no difference whether the UPS is
'online' type or other type. Again, even Intel specs say
why. And that is the point. Too many will post user myths
rather than first learn how the equipment works.

What could have caused the OP's original problem?
Information provides is woefully too inadequate for any
responsible reply. Without an exact quote of computer
messages, then no one can answer the original question without
doing wild speculation. Even worse is the UPS reply which is
totally unjustified speculation; not based in technology
knowledge.

Even the MBM5 recommendation makes claims that are
technically false. Again, AC mains voltage must drop as
defined above and still MBM5 numbers would not change. This
assumes the power supply was properly constructed; a problem
with many clone computers. Spikes would never be recorded.
All this obvious when one has minimal hardware and electrical
knowledge.
 
The OP has given a sketchy description. However food for thought often leads
to using appropriate terminology and gaining feedback that drills down to
the fault. Are you unfamiliar with conversation perhaps?

How do you know the PSU is correctly constructed and operating? You don't,
nor do I and with the dominance in the market of marginal PSU it is a
reasonable place to check.

The PSU could be faulty, it could be producing diminishing voltages due to
aging capacitors or have developed some other fault. The PSU may have been
marginal from day 1, may never have adhered to specifications, and may not
behave per specs with low mains voltage. Or, it may have been near 100% to
spec originally and have developed a fault... It may not be the source of
the fault at all, the mains could be, or the OP could have described things
in a misleading manner, so get off your high horse and contribute something
positive.

The mains may be marginal: There may be power fails lasting from a few ms to
longer - enough to trip the PSU even if the PSU were on spec and is supposed
to handle it.

Plotting voltages from MBM 5 is not always conclusive - out of tolerance
voltages are however an indicator that there is something away from the
ideal, and possibly of a degrading PSU. If the PSU has degraded then the
likelihood of power related issues increases, so MBM 5 can be helpful, so
could sung a DVM or a plotting device on the mains, or a lab...

PSU's do fail. They do age.

Mains can do all sorts of wonderful things. Here, the power can fail 6 times
in a day - 4 out of those six times may be so brief that they are
inconsequential, and other times it can go off for hours. The power is here
crappy, but the true online UPS I have is good (1100va) and hooked up
correctly.

So excuse me for talking about reality. People don't live in testing labs,
they consume made products which are sometimes marginal, and have to use
them on mains that is sometimes also a problem.

My responses are not intended as a conclusive answer, they can't be, but as
food for thought and from that thought further information and hopefully an
answer.

How would you describe your answer? Helpful? Shit stirring?

"Furthermore, it makes no difference whether the UPS is 'online' type or
other type. ". Crap.

w_tom said:
A power supply, properly constructed, must provide DC
voltage unaltered even when AC mains goes so low that
incandescent bulbs dim to less than 40%. This even stated in
Intel ATX power supply specs.
Click to expand...

whooppee, so you are saying all PSU's are made this well and they always
work this well and never fail or become marginal? Are you also saying that
the only mans issues that occur are voltage slumps? Dream on.
Furthermore, it makes no difference whether the UPS is
'online' type or other type.
Click to expand...

Crap. You obvously don't work in the real world where
a) some UPS have horrendously slow switching times so kill computers - this
is more likely with a dicky PSU.
b) we've been down this track before -UPS with spike filters and your own
misinformed ideas here. So you just believe the crap you believe ok?
c) computers aren't the only things thatgetplugged into UPS.
Again, even Intel specs say
why. And that is the point. Too many will post user myths
rather than first learn how the equipment works.
Click to expand...

Are you accusing me of propagating a myth? If so what? Please give exact
details and explain why a dicky PSU has nothing to do with things?
What could have caused the OP's original problem?
Information provides is woefully too inadequate for any
responsible reply.
Click to expand...

It could be better, but the OP may not have the tools or experience to
provide the evidence. Would you prefer this post to be totally ignored until
the OP has provided 100% evidence? Lazy shit.
Without an exact quote of computer
messages, then no one can answer the original question without
doing wild speculation.
Click to expand...

The OP gave 2 quite indicative details of the fault.
Even worse is the UPS reply which is
totally unjustified speculation; not based in technology
knowledge.
Click to expand...

Really? The OP described 2 things that happened. In this case some
speculation is necessary - in the understanding that the OP may reveal more
info, or that testing leads down a different path.
Even the MBM5 recommendation makes claims that are
technically false.
Click to expand...

What false claims? If the voltages read by MBM 5 (installed correctly)
indicate low / high / and fluctuatiung voltages then this does indicate a
problem. If the voltages are wobbly or out of spec then does this indicate a
problem? No according to you.
Again, AC mains voltage must drop as
defined above and still MBM5 numbers would not change.
Click to expand...

That will be the case if the PSU has no fault and the mains voltage only
drops dill brain. Do you know how a switching PSU works? Do you know what a
capacitor is? It appears not.
This
assumes the power supply was properly constructed; a problem
with many clone computers. Spikes would never be recorded.
Click to expand...

Utter crap - you are lagging in the logic area. Tell me, if MBM5 said that
12v was 11.1v and was fluctuating visibly +- 0.3v, that means nothing to
you? Would you get a DVM out to see if MBM5 was showinf the correct mean
voltage? If you had an oscilliscope what would you do?

You are the only one that has been operating from the perspective that the
PSU is 100%, 100% of the time. What is a Clone PSU anyway? PP&C? Antec
(made in Taiwan you know), Task? Or does it have to be IBM? Everytime I hear
someone say Clone I hear "I'm a totally pig ignorant fellow that knows so
little and is gullible so believe IBM advertising and that no one can make a
computer better than them and that it is the only computer to get".
Fortunately, for those of us in the know, that belief couldn't be further
from the truth. "Clone" = "Ignorance".

Spikes won't be recorded if they are short, but a marginal PS will often be
apparent.
 
w_tom said:
A power supply, properly constructed, must provide DC
voltage unaltered even when AC mains goes so low that
incandescent bulbs dim to less than 40%. This even stated in
Intel ATX power supply specs.

Furthermore, it makes no difference whether the UPS is
'online' type or other type. Again, even Intel specs say
why. And that is the point. Too many will post user myths
rather than first learn how the equipment works.

What could have caused the OP's original problem?
Information provides is woefully too inadequate for any
responsible reply. Without an exact quote of computer
messages, then no one can answer the original question without
doing wild speculation. Even worse is the UPS reply which is
totally unjustified speculation; not based in technology
knowledge.
Click to expand...

Your statement about UPS systems is totally wrong. They can make a huge
difference. If the power coming into the building is noisy or marginal
and the UPS uses this "junk" power to recharge a group of batteries that
then provide the power to the computer it can be the difference between
a working system and a costly paperweight. And this is not conjecture,
but experience.
 
Learn what plug-in UPSes do before recommending them. The
typical UPS connects AC power directly to computer when not in
battery backup mode. Directly as in AC mains noise goes
directly to computer. The noisiest power is delivered by UPS
when in battery backup mode. Of course, greatest noise from
UPS is not a computer problem. Computer power supply contains
functions that make irrelevant this large UPS noise as well as
smaller noise from AC mains.

The 'junk' power is worst when a computer grade UPS is in
battery backup mode. 'Junk' made totally irrelevant by how
power supply is designed. 'Junk' power was irrelevant to
power supply operation even 30 years ago. One should have
known this, an industry standard, that old and that well
understood.
 
We don't know if power supply is properly constructed which
is why a minimally sufficient supply is sold with a long list
of numerical specs. No such written (numerical) claim
suggests a power supply - that appears to work just fine for
months - was actually defective when designed.

The OP asked if he was doomed. Well, is power supply
minimally sufficient? Where are the page long list of
numerical specifications? No specs, then suspect the worst.

But this still does not answer the OPs question. Even if
the power supply was defective, MBM5 readings would tell him
nothing useful ... without first having calibrated those
reading with a 3.5 digit multimeter. Furthermore, MBM5
readings will not record spikes nor AC mains brownouts. It is
a monitor that can report slow voltage changes. To determine
proper power supply voltages, first those MBM5 readings must
be calibrated with a meter. The meter could report symptoms
of an 'aging' power supply (ie diminishing voltages or
excessive ripple) - an upcoming weakness that is not yet
caused complete computer failure. A weakness that the
multimeter can identify but the MBM5 software cannot (without
first using the meter).

Properly noted is a clone computer market chock full of
marginal supplies. So many 'computer assemblers' don't even
know how electricity works. First symptom of an inferior
supply is manufacturer does not even claim to provide
essential functions. If manufacturer did not provide a long
list of numerical specifications, then some functions are
probably missing. Second symptom is a supply selling for less
than $65 full retail. Computer assemblers too often only buy
on two numbers - price and watts. Those other essential
functions be damned.

Can an AC mains loss of only a few ms cause power failure?
No. That is also specifically stated in the standards. A UPS
that typically takes 10+ milliseconds to switch from or too
battery backup does not crash computers. Computers can
tolerate short millisecond power losses. If not, even a UPS
switchover would crash a computer. Just another power supply
function IF power supply was built by a responsible
manufacturer who provides numerical specifications.

If power is crappy, then does a online UPS provide benefits
that the standby UPS does not? Yes. But then it better since
an online UPS costs about five times more money. Meanwhile,
those on-line UPS advantages are totally lost on a computer.
Computer power supply standards even 30 years ago makes those
benefits irrelevant.

Is the power supply insufficient? Another good indicator is
the price. A power supply selling for less than $65 full
retail typically is missing essential functions. It provides
just enough functions so that the 'computer assembler' feels
it is good - because it still works six months later.
Furthermore, $65 for a power supply does not guarantee a good
power supply. The reverse logic is not true. A power supply
selling for less must forget essential functions. A power
supply selling for more need not contain essential functions.
Just another reason why those numerical specs are important.

How do I describe my answer here and previous? Right on the
money. MBM5 to measure a defective power supply is bogus.
Obviously bogus because motherboard monitors are not
sufficiently calibrated. Called a "monitor" to detect voltage
changes; not measure voltage levels. To determine power
supply integrity, one must measure voltage levels - the 3.5
digit multimeter. Furthermore, noisy AC mains power does not
adversely affect a properly constructed computer nor is it
eliminated by a typical plug-in UPS. Either computer has
sufficient noisy power to keep running, or computer no longer
gets a Power Good signal - shuts down. Power is fully
sufficient or fully insufficient - according to computer.
This another function of the power supply system.

Information as posted earlier answers the OP's question.
Provided earlier were even AC mains standards. Power supply
must work just fine - not even indicate low voltage in MBM5 -
when incandescent bulbs are at 40% intensity. MBM5 could
report a defective supply that did not maintain voltage. But
then the computer would crash so that MBM5 could not be read.
Neither on-line UPS nor MBM5 provide useful assistance nor
useful information - as was stated previously. The power tool
for such analysis is a 3.5 digit multimeter.
 
w_tom said:
Learn what plug-in UPSes do before recommending them. The
typical UPS connects AC power directly to computer when not in
battery backup mode. Directly as in AC mains noise goes
directly to computer. The noisiest power is delivered by UPS
when in battery backup mode. Of course, greatest noise from
UPS is not a computer problem. Computer power supply contains
functions that make irrelevant this large UPS noise as well as
smaller noise from AC mains.
Click to expand...

Where in my post did I say I was talking about a "typical" UPS? The
post you first responded to was about an On-line UPS, that is, one that
only uses line power to recharge the batteries, and then uses the
batteries to power the converters that provide the power to the
equipment. The only noise output from one of these is in the conversion
of the DC power to a sine wave type output, in other words, nothing
compared to the noise you can get from regular mains power.

The 'junk' power is worst when a computer grade UPS is in
battery backup mode. 'Junk' made totally irrelevant by how
power supply is designed. 'Junk' power was irrelevant to
power supply operation even 30 years ago. One should have
known this, an industry standard, that old and that well
understood.
Click to expand...

What??? A computer grade UPS output is far cleaner than the output from
the main power lines. You don't have the ups and downs of the power
along with the various ripples induced by turning on and off large
pieces of equipment or faulty lines. Nor do you have to worry about the
power going off, then on, then off, then ... This will kill almost any
equipment, including computer power supplies. Yes, a good, that is
expensive, power supply may filter out most of the "junk" that comes
into it, but that junk also stresses the components, lowering their life
expectancy. It is much better to start with "clean" power from a good
on-line UPS.
 
Michael is talking about a $500 UPS. Most are only using
$100 standby UPSes. An on-line UPS that costs five times more
provides nothing useful to a computer.

Meanwhile what is the THD for that UPS? Is it a modified or
true sine wave? Words that mean nothing without the THD
number. Some modified sine wave UPSes output so much noise as
to even be destructive to some small electric motors and power
strip protectors. Still that high noise UPS is completely
irrelevant to a computer whose internal protection makes that
noise totally irrelevant. And so it is called computer grade.

No, a computer grade UPS is not cleanest because computer
power supplies are so resilient. But again, I will do what
Michael W Ryder does not. I will provide numbers. For
example, this computer grade UPS outputs two 200 volts square
waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square
waves. That is clean 120 volts? Yep. The manufacturer calls
those square waves and spike a 'modified sine wave'. And he
is correct. It is a modified sine wave. Basic 60 Hz 120 volt
sine wave is inside all that other noise. Electricity from a
computer grade UPS not clean enough for some appliances and
yet more than sufficient for a computer.

Those educated in retail store rumors may believe "A
computer grade UPS output is far cleaner than the output from
the main power lines." If true, then Michael can cite
numerical specifications. Michael makes his claims without
citing important numbers such as THD.

That trend underlies all my posts here. Those who post
urban myths will routinely avoid the numbers and technical
facts. Where are the numerical specifications from the UPS he
recommends? We have yet to see any numbers in his
recommendations. Exactly what propagandists do. Hype a
myth. Never provide relevant numbers nor underlying 'whys'.

Another myth is that "Nor do you have to worry about the
power going off, then on, then off, then ...". If one has to
worry about this, then one purchased defective equipment. If
cycling occurs too fast or too often, a computer's power
supply controller locks out the power supply. Again, no
problem. But then we have myths without first learning
functions inside a power supply system. Again, an example of
those who just know without first learning underlying
principles.

This knowledge shortage among 'computer assemblers' is why
so many recommend a UPS for anything other than data
protection from blackouts and brownouts. That is what a
plug-in UPS does - not to be confused with serious building
wide UPSes that accomplish more. The plug-in UPS does not
filter noise. It is for data protection from blackouts and
brownouts.

Many who fail to post manufacturer spec numbers will make
subjective claims anyway. This is why UPSes are widely
recommended for other problems such as noise - recommended
without first learning facts and underlying principles.

A perfect example is Michael's claim that "A computer grade
UPS output is far cleaner than the output from the main power
lines." If true, then power strip protectors would be OK in
UPS outputs. Manufacturers quietly caution to not connect
power strip protectors in a computer grade UPS. Computer
grade UPS in battery backup mode is some of the dirtiest
electricity. No problem because computer power supplies
already contain functions that make that and other noise
irrelevant.

Michael, a little suggestion. I have been doing this stuff
for a few generations - including a term working with and
designing power supplies. IOW I have a degree or two. The
typical computer grade UPS does not work as you have assumed.
Yes - assumed. Consult manufacturer spec numbers if you can
find that full page plus. Manufacturers don't like these
numbers widely distributed. No numbers makes it easier for
myth purveyors to hype unchallenged. But I am challenging -
and bluntly. If you are so sure otherwise, well, let's see a
URL with those manufacturer's numbers. You did first learn
the numbers? Good. Let's see them.

For those looking for noise protection, the topic was
discussed on 28 Oct 2005 in the newsgroup aus.hi-fi
entitled "UPS any use?" Provided were solutions for noise
filtering.
 
w_tom said:
Properly noted is a clone computer market chock full of
marginal supplies. So many 'computer assemblers' don't even
know how electricity works. First symptom of an inferior
supply is manufacturer does not even claim to provide
essential functions. If manufacturer did not provide a long
list of numerical specifications, then some functions are
probably missing. Second symptom is a supply selling for less
than $65 full retail. Computer assemblers too often only buy
on two numbers - price and watts. Those other essential
functions be damned.
Click to expand...

This is all too true.. I've said it before - a power supply is not the
place to cheap out on components when building a system. A cheap or
insufficient power supply will give you no end of trouble. Stick to
either major brands (Antec, Enermax, Vantec, etc.) or smaller companies
which are known to produce decent products (Sparkle, etc.)
 
w_tom said:
Those educated in retail store rumors may believe "A
computer grade UPS output is far cleaner than the output from
the main power lines." If true, then Michael can cite
numerical specifications. Michael makes his claims without
citing important numbers such as THD.
Click to expand...

Well, it may be cleaner when running off of AC power in the same way
that the power from a power-strip protector may be cleaner - but the UPS
provides no advantage over a normal surge protector in that respect.

And aside from large power surges which both a surge protector and UPS
should filter out, the remaining noise isn't really important to a
computer. The only real case where one might want to be paranoid about
noise is with audio equipment, to prevent that noise from possibly
getting into the audio (but even then, if it does that equipment
probably needs some more filtering internally).

Monster Cable likes to have these demo setups at stores which have a box
that lets you hear all the "evil" noise on the power line that their
protectors filter out.. but of course if one needs noise filtering one
can get it at a lower price than their products..
 
No significant filtering exists in these plug-in protectors
- even from surges. They are called shunt mode devices.
Active components connect in 'parallel' to electronics just
like a light bulb. To filter, active components must connect
in 'series'. They are not in series. They are shunt mode
devices - in parallel.

Pictures even demonstrate what happens when active
components are removed from a plug-in protector. Even the OK
indicator remains, claiming the protector provides protection
after active components (MOVs) are removed:
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html

That is a problem with plug-in protectors. They really
don't provide, nor do they even claim, to protect from
typically destructive surges - or from noise. Solutions to
noise filtering were cited above and posted in the newsgroup
aus.hi-fi .
 
w_tom said:
No significant filtering exists in these plug-in protectors
- even from surges. They are called shunt mode devices.
Active components connect in 'parallel' to electronics just
like a light bulb. To filter, active components must connect
in 'series'. They are not in series. They are shunt mode
devices - in parallel.

Pictures even demonstrate what happens when active
components are removed from a plug-in protector. Even the OK
indicator remains, claiming the protector provides protection
after active components (MOVs) are removed:
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
Click to expand...

Zero Surge, being a company that provides inductive-type surge
suppressors, has a rather vested interest in discrediting MOV-based
protectors. Cutting the MOVs out is not a fair test since that is not
how the protection light works - it's based on a fuse that's designed to
blow when the MOVs reach their protection limit and short across the line.
That is a problem with plug-in protectors. They really
don't provide, nor do they even claim, to protect from
typically destructive surges - or from noise.
Click to expand...

Well, I believe Underwriters Laboratories would be inclined to disagree..
 
UL does not claim nor is it their job to claim that any
protector protects. UL1449 test permits the protector
completely fail - provide no protection - and still get a
UL1449 approval. Why? Even a failed protector does not kill
humans. Human safety is what Underwriters Laboratories
tests. But to get humans to 'wish' that UL approval means the
protector is effective, well again, we demonstrate another
myth that plug-in protectors hope you create. They hope you
will assume a UL rating means the protector does something
effective. They hope you will promote myths.

It does not matter whether transistors are protected or
not. It does not matter that the protector is so grossly
undersized as to vaporize during a surge. Only that human
life is not endangered. Those with insufficient technical
knowledge may tend to hope otherwise - to think a protector
with a UL rating does something effective.

Another approval is C62.41. It also says the protector does
something? No. ANSI C62.41-1991 is a test waveform. When
does a test waveform mean a protector is effective? It also
does not. But the number looks so official! The naive will
assume this ANSI standard also means a protectors does
something useful. More myths promoted by insufficient
technical knowledge. Myths are how plug-in protector are
promoted.

That is a problem with plug-in protectors. They really
don't provide, nor do they even claim, to protect from
typically destructive surges - or from noise.

Meanwhile, what Zerosurge demonstrates can be performed by
anyone here. Zerosurge forgets to mention is that even their
protector can be overwhelmed if the essential earthing and
'whole house' protector - shunt mode protection - is not
installed. But that is irrelevant here. The point is about
plug-in protectors being ineffective; not providing effective
filtering.

How can active components in a plug-in protector act as
series mode filters when those components are removed - and
still electricity is delivered to the appliance? Some plug-in
protectors provide filtering - that is so trivial as to be
zero. Still, that is enough to claim filtering to those who
don't first demand numbers. Zerosurge demonstrates that the
active components in a plug-in protector do not sit between
the noise source and appliance - as so many here would want
to believe.

Many want to believe noise filtering in plug-in protectors
as they would also believe that UL rates the effectiveness of
plug-in protectors. UL does not care whether the protector
works. No effective noise filtering exists in plug-in, shunt
mode protectors.

Meanwhile, just another problem with so many plug-in
protectors:

http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Articles/Surge Protectors.pdf
http://www.rbs2.com/fire.htm
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm

Where would you put something pictured above? On a carpet?
Behind furniture? On a desk full of papers? Forget about
noise filtering. There are other, more serious problems with
some plug-in protectors.
 
Back
Top