Storage Device / Firewire Power Question

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nameruse

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Hi all,

HDD/Optical drive power requirements on manufacturer's websites are
usually listed as, e.g., 5VDC / 12VDC: 2.0 A / 1.5 A. Does this mean
the device's maximum power is (5 x 2.0) + (12 x 1.5) = 28 W, while its
typical operating power is below this value?

I plan to buy an internal LG GSA-4120B DVD multi drive with the above
rating and wish to make it portable between notebook and desktop PCs
by
using an ATA-to-1394b (or USB 2.0) bridge.

On wikipedia.org, it says the Firewire bus supplies up to 45 W of
power.
Does this mean it can power the drive? Is it possible to run this
burner
using Firewire or USB bus power only (thus no need for an additional
AC
outlet when using it with the notebook PC)? If so, what sorts of
adapters are needed?

Similar ideas are adopted in bus-powered enclosure for 2.5" HDDs, but
are
there any bus-powered ones housing 5.25" devices?

Tia



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[snip]
Similar ideas are adopted in bus-powered enclosure for 2.5" HDDs, but
are there any bus-powered ones housing 5.25" devices?
Click to expand...

As far as I understand firewire, 2.5" works only because they
generally run off +5v only while most hard drives and CD drive uses
both +5v and +12v and probably can't run off just the firewire. You
will probably need to use external power adapter to power the drive.
 
[snip]
Similar ideas are adopted in bus-powered enclosure for 2.5" HDDs, but
are there any bus-powered ones housing 5.25" devices?
Click to expand...

As far as I understand firewire, 2.5" works only because they
generally run off +5v only while most hard drives and CD drive uses
both +5v and +12v and probably can't run off just the firewire. You
will probably need to use external power adapter to power the drive.
Click to expand...

Or wire up some kind of invertor - maybe one exists?


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Previously Peter Hucker said:
[snip]
Similar ideas are adopted in bus-powered enclosure for 2.5" HDDs, but
are there any bus-powered ones housing 5.25" devices?
Click to expand...

As far as I understand firewire, 2.5" works only because they
generally run off +5v only while most hard drives and CD drive uses
both +5v and +12v and probably can't run off just the firewire. You
will probably need to use external power adapter to power the drive.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Or wire up some kind of invertor - maybe one exists?
Click to expand...

Unlikely. The second reason 2.5" HDDs work is because they
consume very little energy, in the range of 10%..20% of 3.5"
drives. That is just withing reach of what firewire can supply.

Arno
 
Previously Peter Hucker said:
[snip]

Similar ideas are adopted in bus-powered enclosure for 2.5" HDDs, but
are there any bus-powered ones housing 5.25" devices?

As far as I understand firewire, 2.5" works only because they
generally run off +5v only while most hard drives and CD drive uses
both +5v and +12v and probably can't run off just the firewire. You
will probably need to use external power adapter to power the drive.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Or wire up some kind of invertor - maybe one exists?
Click to expand...

Unlikely. The second reason 2.5" HDDs work is because they
consume very little energy, in the range of 10%..20% of 3.5"
drives. That is just withing reach of what firewire can supply.
Click to expand...

I was going by the 28 and 45 watts quoted by nameruse.

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Arnie is the resident troll.
USB can power 2.5" HDs. Firewire does support 3.5" and 5+" drives.
I was going by the 28 and 45 watts quoted by nameruse.
Click to expand...
Firewire, the standard, supports 45W. The card/mainboard determines the actual
power.

PCI cards are limited to 25W. You can always increase it using a powered hub.
 
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Eric Gisin said:
Arnie is the resident troll.
USB can power 2.5" HDs. Firewire does support 3.5" and 5+" drives.

Firewire, the standard, supports 45W. The card/mainboard determines the actual
power.

PCI cards are limited to 25W. You can always increase it using a
Click to expand...
powered hub.

I may be wrong about 28 W because I am not sure if I correctly
interpreted
the label on the device: 5V/12V: 2.0A/1.5A).
I couldn't find the actual power values from LG's web site.
The following are some HDD power values at idle from Seagate:
3.5" 15K rpm Ultra320 SCSI: 9~13 W
3.5" 10K rpm Ultra320 SCSI: 7~11 W
3.5" 7.2K rpm Ultra ATA: 7.5 W
3.5" 5.4K rpm Ultra ATA: 4.5 W
2.5" 10K rpm Ultra320 SCSI: <5 W
2.5" 5.4K rpm Ultra ATA: 0.97 W
2.5" 4.2K rpm Ultra ATA: 1.2 W

From Hitachi:
2.5" 7.2K rpm Ultra ATA: 0.85~2 W
2.5" 5.4K rpm Ultra ATA: 0.85~2 W
2.5" 4.2K rpm Ultra ATA: 0.65~1.65 W

From Toshiba:
2.5" 5.4K rpm Ultra ATA: 1.05 W
2.5" 4.2K rpm Ultra ATA: 0.5~0.9 W
1.8" 4.2K rpm Ultra ATA: 0.6 W
1.8" 3.9K rpm PC-Card: 0.7 W (3.3V), 1.1 W (5V)
[Why two values?]
0.85" 3.6K rpm Interface?: Low power consumption (from the web site
:)

So it appears even during spin-up, HDDs should not draw more than 45
W?
Solar-power anyone? :P



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Arnie is the resident troll.
USB can power 2.5" HDs. Firewire does support 3.5" and 5+" drives.

Firewire, the standard, supports 45W. The card/mainboard determines the actual
power.

PCI cards are limited to 25W. You can always increase it using a powered hub.
Click to expand...

So A PCI firewire card cannot actually adhere to both standards?!?

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Eric Gisin said:
Arnie is the resident troll.
USB can power 2.5" HDs. Firewire does support 3.5" and 5+" drives.

Firewire, the standard, supports 45W. The card/mainboard determines the actual
power.

PCI cards are limited to 25W. You can always increase it using a
Click to expand...
powered hub.

I may be wrong about 28 W because I am not sure if I correctly
interpreted
the label on the device: 5V/12V: 2.0A/1.5A).
I couldn't find the actual power values from LG's web site.
The following are some HDD power values at idle from Seagate:
3.5" 15K rpm Ultra320 SCSI: 9~13 W
3.5" 10K rpm Ultra320 SCSI: 7~11 W
3.5" 7.2K rpm Ultra ATA: 7.5 W
3.5" 5.4K rpm Ultra ATA: 4.5 W
2.5" 10K rpm Ultra320 SCSI: <5 W
2.5" 5.4K rpm Ultra ATA: 0.97 W
2.5" 4.2K rpm Ultra ATA: 1.2 W

From Hitachi:
2.5" 7.2K rpm Ultra ATA: 0.85~2 W
2.5" 5.4K rpm Ultra ATA: 0.85~2 W
2.5" 4.2K rpm Ultra ATA: 0.65~1.65 W

From Toshiba:
2.5" 5.4K rpm Ultra ATA: 1.05 W
2.5" 4.2K rpm Ultra ATA: 0.5~0.9 W
1.8" 4.2K rpm Ultra ATA: 0.6 W
1.8" 3.9K rpm PC-Card: 0.7 W (3.3V), 1.1 W (5V)
[Why two values?]
0.85" 3.6K rpm Interface?: Low power consumption (from the web site
:)

So it appears even during spin-up, HDDs should not draw more than 45
W?
Solar-power anyone? :P
Click to expand...

Oh great...... "Data error 7C: a cloud passed over"



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Arnie is the resident troll.
USB can power 2.5" HDs. Firewire does support 3.5" and 5+" drives.
Click to expand...

Well, Firewire can support the 3.5 and 5" drives but not power them.
I checked the firewire specs, no 12v goes through. Only 5v and only
when using 6 pin to 6 pin cable and 6 pin port. 4 pin doesn't have 5v
at all.
 
Actually, the standard allows 1.5A at 8-30V. Most cards will provide 12V,
either 0.5A from PCI or 1.5A from PSU.
powered hub.
Click to expand...
25W is 5V @ 5A. Nobody is going to use that. The common solution is 12V from a
molex connector. That's 18W, enough from most IDE HDs.
 
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Impmon said:
Well, Firewire can support the 3.5 and 5" drives but not power them.
I checked the firewire specs, no 12v goes through. Only 5v and only
when using 6 pin to 6 pin cable and 6 pin port. 4 pin doesn't have 5v
at all.
Click to expand...

Are 9-9, 9-6, 6-6 cables capable of carrying the power
(if available) whereas 9-4, 6-4, and 4-4 are not?

In this case, it seems not so convenient to split the 5V power port
into two,
one of which is then stepped up to 12V. Could this be done though?



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Peter Hucker said:
Oh great...... "Data error 7C: a cloud passed over"
Click to expand...

LOL. Need energy buffer in this case :)
If we could reduce the power consumption of portable PCs/devices to
under, say, 5 W, there is probably enough energy in the environment
(like EM radiation) to power them?



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Click to expand...
 
Peter Hucker said:
So A PCI firewire card cannot actually adhere to both standards?!?
Click to expand...

It can if it has a seperate power connection apart from the PCI bus.
 
LOL. Need energy buffer in this case :)
If we could reduce the power consumption of portable PCs/devices to
under, say, 5 W, there is probably enough energy in the environment
(like EM radiation) to power them?
Click to expand...

Probably not. It's like mW's and barely enough to light up an LED.
Of cource the circuitry to ectract free electricity from the air would
probably draw too much to power itself and not leave any for other
devices.
 
Previously Impmon said:
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 18:21:37 -0700, "Eric Gisin"
Click to expand...
Well, Firewire can support the 3.5 and 5" drives but not power them.
I checked the firewire specs, no 12v goes through. Only 5v and only
when using 6 pin to 6 pin cable and 6 pin port. 4 pin doesn't have 5v
at all.
Click to expand...

The standard says 8V to 40V, 1.5A max. for the cabeling, i.e.
if an interface delivers more it exceeds the cabeling limits
and may create a fire hazard. I did not find minumum requirements.
In addition the 4 pin version does not have power in it.

You cannot power a regular HDD with 8V and 1.5A. There is no problem
at all to power a 5V notebook HDD from 8V and 1.5A, a simple step-down
regulator (but should be switching) is enough. If an implementation
actually delivers 12V and 1.5A, that still is not enough for a typical
3.5" HDD. For example Maxtor specifies for the Diamond Max Plus 9
a peak current fof 1.6A at 12V and 870mA at 5V. In practice
this may still work, but you may also blow a fuse or have a HDD that
does not spin up.

The person who would like to see me discredited as a troll has some
insights, but often lacks real understanding as well as civilized
behaviour.

Arno
 
Probably not. It's like mW's and barely enough to light up an LED.
Of cource the circuitry to ectract free electricity from the air would
probably draw too much to power itself and not leave any for other
devices.
Click to expand...

Actually you can get some mW with a antenna, grounding on the other
side and a microwave rectifier. Has been considerd as a solution for
powering wireless sensor networks, but it is unclear whether it can
work at all in "standard" conditions.

Arno
 
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Peter Hucker said:
LOL. Need energy buffer in this case :)
If we could reduce the power consumption of portable PCs/devices to
under, say, 5 W, there is probably enough energy in the environment
(like EM radiation) to power them?
Click to expand...

Not if we use LCD displays :-)

Talking of energy, I'm seriously considering moving my fridge in here to put the reserator inside.


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Click to expand...
 
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