SMART and HD self-destruct timer?

  • Thread starter Thread starter JJN
  • Start date Start date
JJN said:
I noticed that one of the SMART attributes is a "Power On Hours
Count". Can HD manufacturers use this number to make their drives
fail after a certain number of hours (i.e. after warranty) is reached?
Click to expand...

Corse they can but they arent that stupid.
 
JJN said:
I noticed that one of the SMART attributes is a "Power On Hours Count".
Can HD manufacturers use this number to make their drives fail after a
certain number of hours (i.e. after warranty) is reached?

I'm using the small, freeware SMART monitor at
http://www.beyondlogic.org/solutions/smart/smart.htm if anyone is looking
for one.
Click to expand...

They could, but probably don't.

However, Maxtor do something like that with their OneTouch drives.

Guaranteed to overheat and fail loooooong before the warranty runs out.

RMA will do the same.


Odie
 
Previously JJN said:
I noticed that one of the SMART attributes is a "Power On Hours Count".
Can HD manufacturers use this number to make their drives fail after a
certain number of hours (i.e. after warranty) is reached?
Click to expand...

They could, but it would be illegal in many places. And it
is not like the evidence would be hard to obtain.

Shoddy manufacuting, bad QA, bad cooling (as Odie pints out
elsewere in this thread) are all acceptable. Deliberate,
planned destruction is not, unless the customer is told very
clearly when it will happen and what will happen. It may
still be illegal if there is no good technical reason for the
limited lifetime.

Arno
 
Arno Wagner said:
Shoddy manufacuting, bad QA, bad cooling (as Odie pints out
elsewere in this thread) are all acceptable.
Click to expand...

Having a HD continue to operate after its warranty period is over may
represent a loss in potential new revenue to HD manufacturers.

I tried WD's SMART monitor (DLGDIAG), and my firewall caught it trying to
connect to the WDC.com site with some of my drive's information.
What are they trying to do?
 
Having a HD continue to operate after its warranty period is over
may represent a loss in potential new revenue to HD manufacturers.
Click to expand...

So does a reputation for dying once the warranty has expired.

And its illegal in all first world countrys anyway, and
trivial to work out that the manufacturer is doing that.

They wouldnt be that stupid.
I tried WD's SMART monitor (DLGDIAG), and my
firewall caught it trying to connect to the WDC.com
site with some of my drive's information.
What are they trying to do?
Click to expand...

Rape your daughter.
 
I tried WD's SMART monitor (DLGDIAG), and my firewall caught it
trying to connect to the WDC.com site with some of my drive's
information. What are they trying to do?
Click to expand...

Maybe collecting usage and reliability data on their product? If so,
informing the user, even asking permission, would be courteous.
Instead they're likely to create suspicion, paranoia and bad press.
 
Having a HD continue to operate after its warranty period is over may
represent a loss in potential new revenue to HD manufacturers.
Click to expand...

I agree. Unless the cutomer moves its business elsewhere as
a result of this.
I tried WD's SMART monitor (DLGDIAG), and my firewall caught it trying to
connect to the WDC.com site with some of my drive's information.
What are they trying to do?
Click to expand...

Interesting. And potentially criminal in Euroope.

Arno
 
[QUOTE="Arno Wagner said:
I noticed that one of the SMART attributes is a "Power On Hours Count".
Can HD manufacturers use this number to make their drives fail after a
certain number of hours (i.e. after warranty) is reached?
Click to expand...

They could, but it would be illegal in many places. And it
is not like the evidence would be hard to obtain.

Shoddy manufacuting, bad QA, bad cooling (as Odie pints out
elsewere in this thread) are all acceptable. Deliberate,
planned destruction is not, unless the customer is told very
clearly when it will happen and what will happen. It may
still be illegal if there is no good technical reason for the
limited lifetime.
[/QUOTE]
For hardware to have a fixed and limited life, you would have to be
buying a licence to use the hardware, rather than purchasing the
hardware. In order to do buy a licence, you would have to agree to the
conditions, like you do before you use software like when you install
Microsoft software.

Mean Time Between Failure is just that, a mean, an average, so some will
get 50 percent of the mean time and some will get 150 per cent.

I have not had much experience of the purchase of mainframe hardware,
the only case I was close to, the company I worked for paid Honeywell
for an annual licence for the operating system and for the hardware. If
the fee had not been paid the hardware and operating system would have
ceased to work. This was however upfront and part of the original
purchase contract, and was therefore legal.
 
JJN said:
Having a HD continue to operate after its warranty period is over may
represent a loss in potential new revenue to HD manufacturers.
Click to expand...

While that is true, having them fail like clockwork at the end of the
warranty period (which is measured in calendar time and not operating hours
by the way, so I fail to see how a power on hours count can reasonably be
used for this purpose) and having that traced to deliberately implemented
firmware counter would cost them far more in legal fees, court costs, and
actual and punitive damages than they would be likely to make by selling a
few more drives.
I tried WD's SMART monitor (DLGDIAG), and my firewall caught it trying to
connect to the WDC.com site with some of my drive's information.
What are they trying to do?
Click to expand...

Was it in fact providing information or was it, perhaps, checking to see if
there was an update available?

Regardless, might have been gathering statistics.
 
J. Clarke said:
Was it in fact providing information or was it, perhaps, checking to see if
there was an update available?

Regardless, might have been gathering statistics.
Click to expand...

I had a friend help me analyze what they were trying to do.
DLGDIAG connected to websupport.wdc.com and sent the following information
to them via HTTP without my approval:

serialnum=[my drive serial number]
model=[my drive model number]
manufacturer=[drive manufacturer]
firmware=[version number]
result=PASS
LastTest=[Day] [Month] [Date] [Year] [Time]
Date=SMART_STATUS
EID=0
EDATA=0
 
I had a friend help me analyze what they were trying to do.
DLGDIAG connected to websupport.wdc.com and sent the following information
to them via HTTP without my approval:
Click to expand...
serialnum=[my drive serial number]
model=[my drive model number]
manufacturer=[drive manufacturer]
firmware=[version number]
result=PASS
LastTest=[Day] [Month] [Date] [Year] [Time]
Date=SMART_STATUS
EID=0
EDATA=0
Click to expand...

Aha, seems to be statistics gathering. No personal information.
Still not nice to do without explicitely asking you for permission
first.

Arno
 
Arno said:
serialnum=[my drive serial number]
model=[my drive model number]
manufacturer=[drive manufacturer]
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Aha, seems to be statistics gathering. No personal information.
Click to expand...

It's a bit more complex than that. While there's no personal information as
such included, the information is unique. This is akin to tracking cookies.
Not a big deal, as you're probably not running it often, but still...
Still not nice to do without explicitely asking you for permission
first.
Click to expand...

OTOH, maybe there's something in the license or readme file that tells you
that it does this? Did you check those?

Gerhard
 
Previously Gerhard Fiedler said:
Arno Wagner wrote:
serialnum=[my drive serial number]
model=[my drive model number]
manufacturer=[drive manufacturer]
Click to expand...
Aha, seems to be statistics gathering. No personal information.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
It's a bit more complex than that. While there's no personal information as
such included, the information is unique. This is akin to tracking cookies.
Not a big deal, as you're probably not running it often, but still...
Click to expand...

True. It does not make this outright illegal in Europe, I think,
but it is borderline. Only if they can identify the user from the
serial number, then it would be likely illegal here.
OTOH, maybe there's something in the license or readme file that tells you
that it does this? Did you check those?
Click to expand...

As far as I understand US law (IANAL), that would make it probably legal
over there, even if they can identify users from serial numbers. It
would change nothing in Europe, since you have to actively allow them
to gather and keep personified data.

Arno
 
Arno said:
True. It does not make this outright illegal in Europe, I think,
but it is borderline. Only if they can identify the user from the
serial number, then it would be likely illegal here.
Click to expand...

Are there people who register the purchases of their hard disks? Sounds as
if WD provided a means to register hard disk purchases (with serial
number), this would make it illegal.

Gerhard
 
Gerhard said:
Are there people who register the purchases of their hard disks? Sounds as
if WD provided a means to register hard disk purchases (with serial
number), this would make it illegal.
Click to expand...

Do HD manufacturers have rebates in Europe?
HD rebates are popular in the U.S., and the manufacturers get your name,
address and drive serial number in the process.
So they know who I am from my drive serial number.
 
Do HD manufacturers have rebates in Europe?
Click to expand...

Not that I am aware of. Manufacturer rebates would be against the law in
many (all?) European countries, since they obscure the true price to the
end-user.
HD rebates are popular in the U.S., and the manufacturers get your name,
address and drive serial number in the process.
So they know who I am from my drive serial number.
Click to expand...

Hmm, bad! I think the US needs better privacy laws urgently to keep
the likes of WD from snooping secretly.

Arno
 
Not that I am aware of. Manufacturer rebates would
be against the law in many (all?) European countries,
Nope.

since they obscure the true price to the end-user.
Click to expand...

No they dont.

And rebates are seen in europe, even if not common with hard drives.
Hmm, bad!
Nope.

I think the US needs better privacy laws urgently
to keep the likes of WD from snooping secretly.
Click to expand...

Mindless bureaucratic silly stuff thats one of the main
reasons industry in europe is so uncompetitive.
 
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