SEEK "shim" to measure battery current in appliance [OT]

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Zak

Can I buy something here in the UK like a conducting "shim" to
insert between batteries and measure current?

Below are some details of what I mean.

Thanks
Zak

===============================================

I want to measure the current from the battery when something like
a radio or walkman is used. The battery might be anything from
AAA to D and could be any type(alkaline, zinc-carbon,
rechargeable, etc).

----

I once made a "shim" out of a small thin piece of plastic which
was sandwiched by thin metal conductors on either side. A wire
was attached to each conductor and the two wires went a
multimeter.

The idea is to insert this "shim" between the cells. Then run the
appliance and measure the current you settings like volume, fast
forwards, band select, etc.
 
Zak said:
Can I buy something here in the UK like a conducting "shim" to
insert between batteries and measure current?

Below are some details of what I mean.

Thanks
Zak

===============================================

I want to measure the current from the battery when something like
a radio or walkman is used. The battery might be anything from
AAA to D and could be any type(alkaline, zinc-carbon,
rechargeable, etc).

----

I once made a "shim" out of a small thin piece of plastic which
was sandwiched by thin metal conductors on either side. A wire
was attached to each conductor and the two wires went a
multimeter.

The idea is to insert this "shim" between the cells. Then run the
appliance and measure the current you settings like volume, fast
forwards, band select, etc.

----

Can I get something like this "shim" to insert between batteries
and measure current? My own "shim" was always a bit too thick and
wan't durable.

I think the easiest place to find some is in the K.S.Metal rack in your
nearest Model shop.

Then again coke cans are very thin metal too
 
Trev said:
I think the easiest place to find some is in the K.S.Metal rack in your
nearest Model shop.

Then again coke cans are very thin metal too
And double sided sticky tape is fine as the insulator - after all, if it
does get shorted out, it isn't going to do any damage and will be easily
detected.

I would go for two layers of dolls' house lighting tape (copper tape,
easy to solder to), back to back. The tape is self-adhesive, about the
right size and rigidity and the backing is meant to be used as an
insulator (eg crossing or overlapping tape is quite acceptable.

It also works for making simple "printed circuit boards".
 
Zak said:
Can I buy something here in the UK like a conducting "shim" to
insert between batteries and measure current?

Below are some details of what I mean.

Thanks
Zak

===============================================

I want to measure the current from the battery when something like
a radio or walkman is used. The battery might be anything from
AAA to D and could be any type(alkaline, zinc-carbon,
rechargeable, etc).

----

I once made a "shim" out of a small thin piece of plastic which
was sandwiched by thin metal conductors on either side. A wire
was attached to each conductor and the two wires went a
multimeter.

The idea is to insert this "shim" between the cells. Then run the
appliance and measure the current you settings like volume, fast
forwards, band select, etc.

----

Can I get something like this "shim" to insert between batteries
and measure current? My own "shim" was always a bit too thick and
wan't durable.

The material you use, determines the accuracy of the measurement.
An alloy called "manganin" has a low temperature coefficient of
resistance, which means the resistance of the shunt doesn't change
with temperature. This material is shaped into convenient form
by a number of companies.

http://www.rhopointcomponents.com/result_resistor_1.asp?st1=Resistors&st2=Low Ohmic (Through Hole)

In terms of properties, the shim or current shunt, should be
selected so that it doesn't adversely affect the voltage
delivered to the load. The voltage drop across the shim,
means there is less voltage to run the Walkman, and on some
devices, the appliance may become more unstable with the shim
in place (supply impedance increased).

Supply_voltage X-----shim----X--------walkman------X
|
Ground X-----------------------------------X

The lower the resistance value of the shim, the cooler it
runs. But if the shim has an extremely low value, there
may not be enough voltage developed across it, to measure
with a voltmeter. Amplfication of the voltage across the
shim is one answer to this problem, but that makes the
measurement less accurate, as the amplifier can drift more
with temperature, than the piece of manganin.

Some people buy raw manganin wire themselves, and put that
in their products. That eliminates the "middleman", such as
the rhopoint company above. Shunts can be expensive to buy
as finished products, but are a lot easier to work with.

To work through an example, let's say we want to measure
up to 100mA of current. We have a voltmeter with a 200mV
full scale readout.

The desired resistance value is: 0.2V/0.1A = 2 ohms
The power dissipated in shunt: 0.2V*0.1A = 0.02W

A shunt with a power rating more than 0.02W would work OK.
Like maybe a 1/2W or a 1W device, would give you plenty
of room to work.

The fun begins when you are trying to measure extremely
large currents. Then the resistance required can drop
to 0.001 ohms and the power dissipated becomes large.
But for your Walkman test case, that should not be a
problem. The only unknown, is whether the Walkman will
appreciate the 2 ohms in series with the supply - you
may notice a change in the audio properties of the
Walkman - I have no way to predict what will happen
for any given device. Some amplifiers, for example,
become unstable when the supply impedance increases.

Also, in the above diagram, the shim or shunt is shown
on the "high side" of the supply. The shim or shunt can
also be placed on the "low side", like this:

Supply_voltage X----------------------walkman------X
|
Ground X-----shim-----X--------------------X

Placing the shim on the low side can be an issue, as it
"lifts" the ground of the device being measured, and that
can be an issue if a device is AC powered or the ground
is referenced to another instrument. The "high side"
position of the shim, eliminates any problems with the
ground, but would be more of a problem if you were to
build an amplifier, to amplify the small voltage across
the shim.

There is some background here:

http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/appnote_number/746

There are also small integrated circuits that make
measuring current easy. I think I have seen a device
like this, that can measure up to about 7 amps or so.
The devices in this example are for an ampere or two.

http://www.national.com/ds.cgi/LM/LM3824.pdf

What that device does, is measure current, and put out
a pulse width modulated signal. The time average of the
signal, is a voltage that corresponds to the current
being drawn. For example, if the LM3824 runs from a
3V supply, and the current drawn is the maximum value,
the PWM output is on 100% of the time, so the output is
3.0V. If the current drops to zero, the PWM output is
turned on 50% of the time, and the average value is 1.5V.
If the current flows negative (back into the battery),
the PWM output is turned on less than 50% of the time,
and the time averaged voltage is below 1.5V. That is
a voltage range which is easy to measure with a multimeter.
The time average might be done with a simple RC
low pass filter. The filter has to have a time constant
which is much larger than the 166Hz update rate of the
PWM output, to smooth the pulses and make a steady DC
voltage for measurement.

The LM3824 is also a "high side" device, which means
it won't foul up the ground connection of the Walkman
to other audio devices. And it has bipolar measurement
capability, and is able to measure current flowing out
or current flowing into the battery. There are also
devices that are unipolar, and only measure current
flowing out of the battery. I suppose they would be
a bit less confusing to use.

So the LM3824 is functioning as an amplifier, and
making the tiny voltage across its internal shunt,
into a voltage that is easy to measure with a
multimeter.

Other companies also make stuff like this, and
"high side" or "current sensor" might make good search
terms.

Paul
 
Can I buy something here in the UK like a conducting "shim" to
insert between batteries and measure current?
Wouldn't it be better to get some cell holders and make up some dummy
cells with contacts on the end so you can insert the dummy into the
appliance, the cells into the holder and measure current without having
to wedge anything extra in the already tight bay in the appliance?
 
Wouldn't it be better to get some cell holders and make up some
dummy cells with contacts on the end so you can insert the dummy
into the appliance, the cells into the holder and measure
current without having to wedge anything extra in the already
tight bay in the appliance?


It migth be a bit of extra work to do it this way as I would need to
make up dummy cells for several battery sizes (AAA, AA, C, D).
 
Rob Morley said:
Wouldn't it be better to get some cell holders and make up some dummy
cells with contacts on the end so you can insert the dummy into the
appliance, the cells into the holder and measure current without having
to wedge anything extra in the already tight bay in the appliance?

OK. Now I understand what he wants. Something very thin, that
functions as a current shunt. Perhaps a flat strip of a resistive
material, folded into a V and shoved between the battery and the
battery holder. With a piece of insulation between the two halves
of the V, so when the V is squashed flat, the full length of the
material is used.

Maybe bend a thing like the item at the top of this page, into
a V shape, and place the two legs of the V, between battery
terminal and cell holder terminal. The manganin ribbon would
have to be very thin, to raise the resistance enough to make
it useful for measuring a Walkman. (Also, bending Manganin
spoils the calibration, so a known current would have to be
run through it, and the voltage measured, to get an idea of
the resistance after the ribbon is formed.)

http://www.mesaproducts.com/catalog/teststations/shunts1.html

Generally, you don't find products like this at the hardware
store, and even searching on the web, the companies that
make the stuff do a poor job of selling it.

Building a measurement solution that lives outside the
Walkman, does sound a lot simpler.

You can measure current with a Hall Probe, a device with
clamp jaws that fit around the wire to be measured. The
device measures the magnetic field created by the current
flowing though the wire. In the case of the Walkman, you'd
need to bring a wire out of the unit, that had all of the
load current flowing through it. Then the clamp-on meter
could be used to measure the current. To increase the
sensitivity of a clamp-on meter, just wind the wire around
the jaws N times, to multiply the readout by N.

Paul
 
You can measure current with a Hall Probe, a device with
clamp jaws that fit around the wire to be measured. The
device measures the magnetic field created by the current
flowing though the wire. In the case of the Walkman, you'd
need to bring a wire out of the unit, that had all of the
load current flowing through it. Then the clamp-on meter
could be used to measure the current. To increase the
sensitivity of a clamp-on meter, just wind the wire around
the jaws N times, to multiply the readout by N.


I wouldn't expedt that to be very accurate with low voltage
and current DC power leads.

I suppose it could depend on the level of accuracy needed
though, I often don't need much and just put a piece of
(forget exact thickness, maybe...) 0.16" DS copper clad
board in with a couple leads to a DMM. I suppose it can
then matter quite a bit what DMM is used too, my $3 bargain
bin special doesn't come remotely close to some low current
readings as a Fluke. This is still the issue you mentioned
previously, that the minor voltage drop can effect current,
it works best for several-cell battery packs so the drop is
least % of total.
 
Zak said:
Can I buy something here in the UK like a conducting "shim" to
insert between batteries and measure current?

Below are some details of what I mean.


If the current is under 20 amps...
many DVM have a 20 amp meter in them...and no shunt is needed.

you can make a shunt out of virtually any wire...
but the problem is you need to calibrate it.

a few feet of #16 wire should do the trick...
to calibrate it you'll need a know resistance and voltage source
 
====snip====

FFS !!!

Zak simply wants to open circuit the battery so he can connect
a meter across the break to measure the current.

You got it. I am a bit surprised that there have been some very
complicated ideas in some replies. I did my best to make my needs
clear!
 
Zak <[email protected]> said:
You got it. I am a bit surprised that there have been some very
complicated ideas in some replies. I did my best to make my needs
clear!

You can solder a wire to the end cap of one of your batteries.
Place tape over the end, or use your plastic disk idea to
insulate. Either solder the second wire somewhere to the battery
compartment wiring, or just jam the wire between the plastic disk
and the contact. A battery compartment is just a lousy place to
have to work in.

I actually tried to make a battery look-alike once, to allow
an adapter to connect to a device that was battery only (no
jack on it and no room to install a jack), and the idea was
a flop. My substitute batteries wouldn't stay in place. The
dimensions would have to be just right for that to work, and
I didn't get close enough to the exact dimensions needed. So
soldering would be one way to make a connection to things,
that won't immediately fall off or dislodge.

You might also look through your collection of alligator
clips. The contacts on some battery compartments have
enough metal present, to allow an alligator clip to grip.
You can then connect an external power source, with your
meter in series, to make the measurements.

Yeah, I guess I stopped reading the original post after
the first few lines :-)

Paul
 
You got it. I am a bit surprised that there have been some very
complicated ideas in some replies. I did my best to make my needs
clear!


It can depend on what you're measuring, how much versatility
you need, the voltage range, the precision. A simple
open-circuit multimeter-shunt type measurement won't even
work in some cases... for example I've an MP3 player that
can't power on with a shunt in place, presumably the initial
startup current to power the backlighting is too low with
the shunt in place. If I were really anxious to get a
reading I could short across the shunt and then break short
after the backlight had come on, but once again the simple
idea of breaking the circuit is not as simple as it
initially appears.

If you just want a suggestion, grab a couple pieces of thin
insulated wire, tin both ends, and cut out a piece of this
stuff,
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G2624&variation=&aitem=9&mitem=16
double sided copper clad board comes thinner, more expensive
at the various electronics supply houses but unless you need
to reduce the thickness an extra 0.01" or more, that should
fit inbetween the batteries or battery and contact in most
devices that have the spring-action battery contacts. So
you have a piece of wire soldered onto each side, the piece
of board cut long enough to extend out so it clears the
batteries.... perhaps cutting it in a long thin strip like a
popscicle stick shape. You can either tin the contact area
or periodically clean it off since corroded copper isn't a
good conductor. Solder the wires far enough out of the way
to each side and use your DMM's appropriate current range,
starting out with the high current range to be sure you
don't have a high-startup-current device that blows the
low-range fuse (typically is between 200-500mA in many
handheld meters).
 
Zak said:
The message <[email protected]>
from (e-mail address removed) (Paul) contains these words:




You got it. I am a bit surprised that there have been some very
complicated ideas in some replies. I did my best to make my needs
clear!


Well, one of the beauties of usenet is that you will get a range of
ideas, in this case ranging from a couple of bits of doll's house wiring
back to back, to something far more complicated but with advantages:

The "doll's house" puts the unknown current through the test meter -
which could be pretty terminal (no pun intended. ;) ) for the meter if
there is a fault and much more current flows than is expected.

The "series shunt" basically only puts the shunt at risk - you aren't
/as/ likely to damage the meter.

(I would suspect that those more used to industrial instrumentation went
for the latter, whereas those more used to battery powered kit went for
the former. )

A dummy battery, such as:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=261&criteria=dummy battery&doy=23m2
is no bad idea. The connecting wire passing through it can be broken and
wired out to an external battery holder and meter. Several of these,
plus one wired out mains adapter can be an easy way of mains powering
something without soldering wires (which tends to cause sparks with
warranty claims) or using croc clips (which just tends to produce sparks)..

HTH
 
Zak said:
Can I buy something here in the UK like a conducting "shim" to
insert between batteries and measure current?

Below are some details of what I mean.

OK. You could probably do this with a small piece of double-sided
printed circuit board, solder a wire on each side. Maplins sell them.
Use the thickest copper wire you can find, speaker cable would do it.
make sure your solder joints are perfect.

That's the easy part.

The difficult part is measuring the current. Multimeters work by
measuring the voltage drop across a resistor. They usually aim for a
200mV drop at full scale. If your supply is 1.2V then a 200mV drop will
significantly affect the circuit and so the current measured with the
shunt will be lower than the current without it.

When I worked for Fluke we sold a shunt that dropped 200mV at 20A. It
had standard 4mm plugs and screw-terminal connectors. If you used
something like that you would get an output of 200mcV at 20ma, which
would probably be acceptable if you have a meter that can measure that.
If you only have a toy multimeter that only has a 200mV range then
forget it, you aren't going to get meaningful results.
 
don said:
20 AMPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's a walkman not a welding machine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

a welder is several hundred amps...

a standard 20 am multimeter should be plenty good for a walkman though
 
I have a Mig welder that only draws 20 amps.

It delivers up to 88 amps at the electrode (wire fed) but only draws 20 amps
Max.

A typical walkman would not be in a range much higher that a few
milliamps.(just a guess)
 
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