second request...delay in accessing DSL service

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no1

Hi,

I posted a message here a few weeks ago and received no replies. I
know my question lies in a grey area and it's not surprising that I
didn't hear from anyone. So I'll generalize my question.

I'm trying to understand the protocol involved between a DSL ISP, the
DSL Modem and the Win XP network. Initially, I noticed the IP address
supplied by the ISP DHCP server, was showing up at my firewall. Then,
XP would override it and impose it's own automatic IP address. I
disabled that service from XP, and eventually the system would make
contact with the DSL ISP.

Does anyone know how this works? Obviously there is a handshake
between XP, the DSL modem and the ISP. I can't get any information out
of my ISP...they are useless. When I have a delay establishing my DSL
connection (ie. ADSL link light is off on modem), yet the DHCP IP
address is available according to the application monitor on my
firewall, why does XP delay the transaction?

And why are these delays such a secret from Microsoft? I've seen a lot
of problems in this ng where XP systems wouldn't talk to 98SE systems.
From personal experience I know it's sometimes a matter of waiting up
to 10 minutes for the network to establish itself. Why did Microsoft
not make a standard window available to indicate the process was in
the works. And why is the delay there in the first place?

I ran netdiag today when the ADSL link light was off. It said it
couldn't find the DHCP server or the gateway. Yet a few minutes later,
it found both. Why? Today's delay was only a minute or so and I can
live with that. In recent weeks, however, the delay has been 10 to 15
minutes.

BTW...it's not my firewall. I tried uninstalling it altogether and had
the same problem. I'm using the free Sygate personal firewall and it's
been really good as far as non-interference with the network.
 
Im replying because Im interested rather than answering query

Hi,

I posted a message here a few weeks ago and received no replies. I
know my question lies in a grey area and it's not surprising that I
didn't hear from anyone. So I'll generalize my question.

I'm trying to understand the protocol involved between a DSL ISP, the
DSL Modem and the Win XP network. Initially, I noticed the IP address
supplied by the ISP DHCP server, was showing up at my firewall. Then,
XP would override it and impose it's own automatic IP address. I
disabled that service from XP, and eventually the system would make
contact with the DSL ISP.
Click to expand...

When my XP system attempts to connect from a reboot it starts with IP
0.0.0.0.
If I get an external IP address I see it straight away 214.x.x.x.
If connection/DHCP fails I get one in the 169.x.x.x range.

If I have my hardware firewall/router between PC and modem, it displays IP
0.0.0.0 if it fails, again a pass will return with IP 214.x.x.x

There IS a noticable delay between desktop display and my TSR network apps
starting up, which I put down to DHCP.
I don't see any other IP address. I dont really understand what the
automatic IP address is you're referring to. Did you make a note of what it
was?
What did you disable?
Does anyone know how this works? Obviously there is a handshake
between XP, the DSL modem and the ISP. I can't get any information out
of my ISP...they are useless. When I have a delay establishing my DSL
connection (ie. ADSL link light is off on modem), yet the DHCP IP
address is available according to the application monitor on my
firewall, why does XP delay the transaction?

And why are these delays such a secret from Microsoft? I've seen a lot
of problems in this ng where XP systems wouldn't talk to 98SE systems.
From personal experience I know it's sometimes a matter of waiting up
to 10 minutes for the network to establish itself. Why did Microsoft
not make a standard window available to indicate the process was in
the works. And why is the delay there in the first place?
Click to expand...
here here!!
 
When my XP system attempts to connect from a reboot it starts with IP
0.0.0.0.
If I get an external IP address I see it straight away 214.x.x.x.
If connection/DHCP fails I get one in the 169.x.x.x range.
Click to expand...

This is the automatic configuration I mentioned. I copied this article
off the net which applies to Xp as well:

***********

There is an interesting new feature of Windows 2000 called Automatic
IP Addressing.  It is only used in the instance where a Windows 2000
computer is configured for DHCP, and no DHCP server can be located. 
If no DHCP server can be found when it starts, the computer will
assign itself an IP Address in the Class B range of 169.254.0.0 with a
subnet mask of 255.255.0.0.  No gateway or DNS server will be
assigned.  This IP address range is owned by Microsoft and used for
this purpose.

*********


What did you disable?
Click to expand...

I thought it might be interfering with the DHCP server from the ISP. I
found a blurb on the Microsoft site about disabling it. I'm trying to
find it for you.

Read completely the articles on these URL's:

http://www.wown.info/j_helmig/w2ktcpip.htm

http://www.wown.info/j_helmig/w2knoaip.htm

The article explains the Autimatic IP configuration in XP and how to
disable it.
 
This is the automatic configuration I mentioned. I copied this article
off the net which applies to Xp as well:

***********

There is an interesting new feature of Windows 2000 called Automatic
IP Addressing. It is only used in the instance where a Windows 2000
computer is configured for DHCP, and no DHCP server can be located.
If no DHCP server can be found when it starts, the computer will
assign itself an IP Address in the Class B range of 169.254.0.0 with a
subnet mask of 255.255.0.0. No gateway or DNS server will be
assigned. This IP address range is owned by Microsoft and used for
this purpose.

*********




I thought it might be interfering with the DHCP server from the ISP. I
found a blurb on the Microsoft site about disabling it. I'm trying to
find it for you.

Read completely the articles on these URL's:

http://www.wown.info/j_helmig/w2ktcpip.htm

http://www.wown.info/j_helmig/w2knoaip.htm

The article explains the Autimatic IP configuration in XP and how to
disable it.
Click to expand...

I understand what it's doing but I can't see the benefits of it aside from
showing the user that it definately looked but couldnt find a DHCP server.
Don't worry about it.

I'd say that if your PC appeared to have the correct IP address at first is
because it's being cached "somewhere". My hardware firewall will hold the
old IP until rebooted or forced to query the network. When the xp/w2k pc
tries to connect and receives no reply from the network it resets and makes
a request for a new IP address which fails and return the 169.254.x.x IP. My
hardware firewall would return the 0.0.0.0 IP address.
 
I'd say that if your PC appeared to have the correct IP address at first is
because it's being cached "somewhere". My hardware firewall will hold the
old IP until rebooted or forced to query the network. When the xp/w2k pc
tries to connect and receives no reply from the network it resets and makes
a request for a new IP address which fails and return the 169.254.x.x IP. My
hardware firewall would return the 0.0.0.0 IP address.
Click to expand...

thanks for the information. I'm just beginning to delve into the
network structure, having avoided it in the past.

I get the 0.0.0.0 IP address on initial bootup. The service running at
that time is BootPC. When the BootPC process finishes, the 0.0.0.0 is
replaced either by the 169.....automatic IP or by the actual IP from
my ISP. When my trouble first began, the 0.0.0.0 was always replaced
by the auto IP initially, then after a delay of up to 15 minutes the
real DHCP IP address would appear. At that time, my ADSL modem link
light would come on. Of course, once I turned off the auto IP, my
real IP appeared. But the system still could not find the DHCP server.
As you pointed out, it might be cached somewhere.

I don't understand that part of it. Apparently, the DHCP server for
DSL is part of the ISP and it is dynamically assigned. When my XP
system says it can't find the DHCP server, is it looking downstream
beyond the modem to the ISP?

I've noticed in the registry that a CSLID-type number is created when
my connection is functioning properly. It shows up under
HKLM/System/CurrentControlSet/Services under a subkey called,
{891FCDCA-F27F-4BC7-A054-0C9199F27688}. There are two numbers like
this, one is for my Firewire connection which is disabled.

There are two subkeys under this number: Parameters/TCPIP. Under TCPIP
is listed all the particulars for TCPIP such as DHCP IP address, etc.
These values change during boot up. If the DHCP number is being stored
somewhere, it is not in this key.

If XP can't find this DHCP IP address at boot up, where does it
eventually get it? It must surely come from the ISP. I'm trying to
figure out whether it's XP or my ISP that is causing the delay. So
far, I've found no answers either to the problem or to understanding
the process so I can troubleshoot it.

If I ask for a repair in My Network Places, the repair facility wont
work because it can't find the DHCP server. IPConfig wont work either
in /release or /renew. The help files are about as useless as can be.
The netdiag is better, but all it tells you is that something is not
working. Doh!!

It bothers me that Microsoft is leaving us so much in the dark about
the XP network. They should tell us in detail how it works so we can
troubleshoot it effectively. There should be ways to verify whether
the network is working correctly or whether the fault lies further
downstream with the ISP.

I guess part of that's my fault for not learning how to read data
packets to and from the ISP. Then again, why should I? It shouldn't be
that damned complicated.
 
I don't understand that part of it. Apparently, the DHCP server for
DSL is part of the ISP and it is dynamically assigned. When my XP
system says it can't find the DHCP server, is it looking downstream
beyond the modem to the ISP?
Click to expand...

Your pc broadcasts on datagram UDP ports 67 and 68 to the external network
on IP 255.255.255.255 down the modem line. The ISP should be listening, pick
up and handle the request.

Do a general search on DHCP, there's a nice faq at the following link

http://www.dhcp-handbook.com/dhcp_faq.html

I agree with you, if there were a microsoft debugging tool for networking it
would be rather useful
 
In addition trying to do DHCP release / renew on the phone with your ISP may
help them troubleshoot your problem.

Also you can install a sniffer and see the DHCP traffic on the wire and can
also assist in seeing if DHCP is even out there.
 
In addition trying to do DHCP release / renew on the phone with your ISP may
help them troubleshoot your problem.
Click to expand...

My ISP (Telus), in Canada, is seriously understaffed due to heavy-duty
layoffs. They have tried to appease their shareholders...you know the
story. I waited on the phone for close to an hour one night to reach
tech support only to have the girl tell me they'd check the line.
That's about as close as you can get from them to doing what you
suggest.

Years ago I worked for a Telco. We'd check lines by having one person
on either end of the line. That's the way you need to do it. But when
you have vested interests who want to take your money and give as
little service as possible, you don't get that.
Also you can install a sniffer and see the DHCP traffic on the wire and can
also assist in seeing if DHCP is even out there.
Click to expand...

I have a sniffer program somewhere that I haven't used for a while.
I'll have to set it up again. Thanks for your comments.
 
Your pc broadcasts on datagram UDP ports 67 and 68 to the external network
on IP 255.255.255.255 down the modem line. The ISP should be listening, pick
up and handle the request.
Click to expand...

thanks for the URL...it will take me a while to digest all that. They
refer to a bootTP, whereas XP has a process called BootPC. I wonder if
they are related? My UDP in XP seems to use ports 137 and 138 rather
than 67 and 68. I checked my traffic log and the very first
communication online is UDP over 137 and 138.

I'm starting to understand the process. The DHCP server then is on the
ISP end and is listening down my telephone line pair all the time. I
guess the DSL network is like a huge hub with all the customers
plugged into it.

Funny enough, since I started harrassing my ISP, my problems seem to
have cleared up rather dramatically. :-)
Do a general search on DHCP, there's a nice faq at the following link
Click to expand...

I've been doing that but I'm also trying to digest all the stuff about
IP octets, subnet masks, gateways, etc. I understood RS-232 pretty
decently and was avoiding getting into this IT stuff. Guess I'll have
to take the plunge. I have a good article by Cisco that explains
everything quite clearly.

I complain a lot about Microsoft yet I don't feel a hostility toward
them. It's more a frustration at their remoteness and secrecy, which
borders on childishness. Since Microsoft and most software companies
stopped producing decent help manuals, you have to rely on third party
books. The trick is finding one which addresses your particular
interest. Also, the people who produce the help files in XP, et al,
should go back to school and learn how to communicate in good English.

The first thing I learned about writing in school was to define what
you are talking about then expand on it. If you look at a typical
modern helpfile, they use a term like DHCP without telling you what it
means or how it is used.

Here's a good one for you. To prove my point, I just entered DHCP in
my XP help file search. It says 16 entries were found but only one
appears under 'glossary'. So, the other 15 are not on my computer. I
get an error window titles 'Internet Explorer Script Error'. I know
what it's about. To make Internet Explorer behave (popups, etc.), I
ran it through a proxy. So, XP has been trying to secretly run home to
Microsoft to look up the help files and has been stopped by the proxy
filters. The proxy filters HTTP language and apparently wont pass on
Microsoft script.

It's really annoying to me, the amount of calling out that's done to
Microsoft without telling the computer user that it's being done. I
just looked up my traffic log, and sure enough there is a call to
support.microsoft .com. It's plain bad manners. And this situation
raises another question: is Microsoft able to use Internet Explorer in
the background without it appearing as a window? Is that what these
scripts are about? The seem to be using a subset of IE to contact
Microsoft.
 
I've been doing that but I'm also trying to digest all the stuff about
IP octets, subnet masks, gateways, etc. I understood RS-232 pretty
decently and was avoiding getting into this IT stuff. Guess I'll have
to take the plunge. I have a good article by Cisco that explains
everything quite clearly.
Click to expand...

It's fascinating, go for it! Do you have a link to the Cisco article?
Here's a good one for you. To prove my point, I just entered DHCP in
my XP help file search. It says 16 entries were found but only one
appears under 'glossary'. So, the other 15 are not on my computer. I
get an error window titles 'Internet Explorer Script Error'. I know
what it's about. To make Internet Explorer behave (popups, etc.), I
ran it through a proxy. So, XP has been trying to secretly run home to
Microsoft to look up the help files and has been stopped by the proxy
filters. The proxy filters HTTP language and apparently wont pass on
Microsoft script.
Click to expand...
It scares me every time I see a new version of windows server appear, you
know there'll be more acronyms and services to swot up on - plus no info in
help. If you're working for a company that doesnt believe in training staff
then you're stuck with gleaning the internet.
It's really annoying to me, the amount of calling out that's done to
Microsoft without telling the computer user that it's being done. I
just looked up my traffic log, and sure enough there is a call to
support.microsoft .com. It's plain bad manners. And this situation
raises another question: is Microsoft able to use Internet Explorer in
the background without it appearing as a window? Is that what these
scripts are about? The seem to be using a subset of IE to contact
Microsoft.
Click to expand...
Exactly, it's bad manners. there should be something similar to ZA where
microsoft tells you the reason and asks if its ok to connect.
Another useful thing would be some kind of security
verification/certification for any application that runs in Windows for
expected port useage. If certificates dont match attempted port openings
then Winsock should fail.
 
It's fascinating, go for it! Do you have a link to the Cisco article?
Click to expand...


no. It's something I downloaded from the net by accident and it's
rather large (too big for email). I was ftping, looking for related
material, and I couldn't tell from the file name what it was. Turned
out to be interesting anyway.

If you're on ICQ, or something that can handle large files, let me
know and I'll send you my ICQ number...if it still works.
 
Yup funny how service improves when you give them undisputable details on
what is "not working" with your network.

Keep your sniffer around so you can walk through the network trace before
they try to tell you to "reinstall windows" :)
 
Yup funny how service improves when you give them undisputable details on
what is "not working" with your network.

Keep your sniffer around so you can walk through the network trace before
they try to tell you to "reinstall windows" :)
Click to expand...


that's if i get a network trace. :-)

It took me nearly an hour one night just to get through to customer
service.
 
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