SATA - PATA Hard drive issues

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This forum is FULL of SATA and PATA issues, and everyone is trying to figure
out a solution......

My suggestion, after much troubleshooting, contacting motherboard
manufacture, and providing info to Microsoft, is as follows:

Microsoft should post that there IS a problem with the SATA/PATA within
VISTA, so Microsoft's customers can stop "beating their head against the
wall", and let Microsoft solve the issue......

I don't feel it is in the best interest of the customer to just let them
continue their unending pursuit of solving the SATA/PATA problem, after all
Microsoft is a MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR Corporation, they should respond to their
customers...

In other words, Microsoft, tell us straight out, what the issues are and
what Microsoft is doing to resolve it.


No replies needed, just wanted Microsoft to have the opportunity to respond...



----------------
This post is a suggestion for Microsoft, and Microsoft responds to the
suggestions with the most votes. To vote for this suggestion, click the "I
Agree" button in the message pane. If you do not see the button, follow this
link to open the suggestion in the Microsoft Web-based Newsreader and then
click "I Agree" in the message pane.

http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/co...osoft.public.windows.vista.installation_setup
 
This is a peer to peer forum for which MS supplies the servers. MS does not
activliy particapte in this forum and anytime you see a response from a MS
employee he is responding on his own time since no MS employees are paid to
respond here.
AFAIK the problem betwen Serial ATA Parallel ATA(IDE) drives are drive
controller vendor related since the Software interface in VISTA is to a ATA
drive and it is the controller that handles the actual physical drive
interface
 
retired fire said:
This forum is FULL of SATA and PATA issues, and everyone is trying to figure
out a solution......

My suggestion, after much troubleshooting, contacting motherboard
manufacture, and providing info to Microsoft, is as follows:

Microsoft should post that there IS a problem with the SATA/PATA within
VISTA, so Microsoft's customers can stop "beating their head against the
wall", and let Microsoft solve the issue......

I don't feel it is in the best interest of the customer to just let them
continue their unending pursuit of solving the SATA/PATA problem, after all
Microsoft is a MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR Corporation, they should respond to
their
customers...

In other words, Microsoft, tell us straight out, what the issues are and
what Microsoft is doing to resolve it.


No replies needed, just wanted Microsoft to have the opportunity to
respond...



----------------
This post is a suggestion for Microsoft, and Microsoft responds to the
suggestions with the most votes. To vote for this suggestion, click the "I
Agree" button in the message pane. If you do not see the button, follow this
link to open the suggestion in the Microsoft Web-based Newsreader and then
click "I Agree" in the message pane.

http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/co...osoft.public.windows.vista.installation_setup
Click to expand...


I have had no problems with SATA drives in Vista, even while it was in beta.
Of course, I had controllers which were made by large OEMS, rather than
unknown brands, and they provided decent drivers.

First on an Apple, then on my Dell.
No problems at all.

Try speaking to MICROSOFT Support, rather than to us.
You might also see if the manufacturer of your controller has updated drivers
which are Vista-compatible.
 
Daniel,

Did you try installing Vista x64 to a SATA drive? I can load the x86
version just fine to a SATA drive but the x64 version doesn't take after it
boots to finish the install. Everything is imaged to the drive and I load
in the latest nForce4 x64 drivers (v15) and you can't get there from here
with nForce drivers.

Bob S.
 
Thanks for your comments, I have spoken to the manufacturers of my mother
board, and they indicated it was a problem with Vista, and Microsoft has
assigned a Case number for this issue..... If you knew the whole story (too
long to tell), you may better understand why so many customers are having
issues with SATA/PATA drives......... Oh, by the way, I have the latest
drivers also....

Thanks again for the comments... Hopefully we may hear from Microsoft on
this forum, as many of their employees post here......
 
BobS said:
Daniel,

Did you try installing Vista x64 to a SATA drive? I can load the x86
version just fine to a SATA drive but the x64 version doesn't take after it
boots to finish the install. Everything is imaged to the drive and I load
in the latest nForce4 x64 drivers (v15) and you can't get there from here
with nForce drivers.

Bob S.
Click to expand...

Sorry. I can't afford the 64bit version. I don't have a large enough budget
to swing all the necessary hardware and software.

Does your SATA controller manufacturer have VISTA drivers on its webpage?

I don't like nVidia cards. I prefer ATI cards and drivers.
 
retired fire said:
Thanks for your comments, I have spoken to the manufacturers of my mother
board, and they indicated it was a problem with Vista, and Microsoft has
assigned a Case number for this issue..... If you knew the whole story
(too
long to tell), you may better understand why so many customers are having
issues with SATA/PATA drives......... Oh, by the way, I have the latest
drivers also....
Click to expand...

I'll bet if you called MS, they'd say it was a problem with the hardware
manufacturer.

Tom Lake
 
HUM, I guess none of the many MVP's or the usual posters from Microsoft have
anything to say........ I wonder why?????
 
retired fire said:
HUM, I guess none of the many MVP's or the usual posters from Microsoft
have
anything to say........ I wonder why?????
Click to expand...

MVP's aren't Microsoft, it's an honorary title. You're last line says, "No
replies needed,..." If you want a response from MS this is not the
mechanism by which to get that.

http://support.microsoft.com/gp/contactbug

http://support.microsoft.com/contactus/?WS=Wish

https://support.microsoft.com/commo...m/results.aspx?mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&q=wish

(e-mail address removed)
 
MVP's aren't Microsoft, it's an honorary title.
Click to expand...

Yep and meaningless since there is no formal testing of a MVP's
knowledge or skill level. New MVP's are picked by current MVP's or if
somebody at Microsoft thinks you'll be a good shill to offer up the
same threadbare tired excuses why Windows features don't work as
claimed. Why there aren't more current drivers included on the Windows
Vista DVD, and of course being good at trying to assign blame
exclusively at hardware vendors or software developers because we all
know Microsoft is perfect, their software never has bugs, never hangs,
chokes or just stops even in the middle of installing a new version of
Windows.

That of course explains why XP Service Pack 2 full version was nearly
250K. LOL!

Microsoft is like the Bush Adminstration. They never admit they did
anything wrong.
 
The caseworker at Microsoft said he would get back with me when this issue
was resloved...... Still waiting.......

I guess the many MVP's have not tested installing Vista to a box with SATA
and PATA drives installed, so they really can't comment, other that to say
"contact Microsoft" which I did prior to posting....

The MVP's probably haven't tried to Restore a Complete Backup from a PATA
internal drive to a SATA system drive..... so again they have no experience
 
Adam Albright said:
Yep and meaningless since there is no formal testing of a MVP's
knowledge or skill level. New MVP's are picked by current MVP's or if
somebody at Microsoft thinks you'll be a good shill to offer up the
same threadbare tired excuses why Windows features don't work as
claimed. Why there aren't more current drivers included on the Windows
Vista DVD, and of course being good at trying to assign blame
exclusively at hardware vendors or software developers because we all
know Microsoft is perfect, their software never has bugs, never hangs,
chokes or just stops even in the middle of installing a new version of
Windows.

That of course explains why XP Service Pack 2 full version was nearly
250K. LOL!

Microsoft is like the Bush Adminstration. They never admit they did
anything wrong.
Click to expand...

Actually, Adam, XP SP2 was nearly 250 MEG, which is MUCH larger than 250K. I
realize that you probably got confused there. I get confused myself. And
more so as I age. After all, our brains begin to lose memories as we approach
the Winters of our Lives.
 
The caseworker at Microsoft said he would get back with me when this issue
was resloved...... Still waiting.......

I guess the many MVP's have not tested installing Vista to a box with SATA
and PATA drives installed, so they really can't comment, other that to say
"contact Microsoft" which I did prior to posting....

The MVP's probably haven't tried to Restore a Complete Backup from a PATA
internal drive to a SATA system drive..... so again they have no experience





- Show quoted text -
Click to expand...

Retire Fire:
I have an upgrade issue not reported by upgrade advisor nor by Dell's
upgrade advisor for XPS 600 with SATA Raid also which I thought was
my issue but I was being blocked from installing the Vista upgrade. I
think I may have found the issue as MS blocking non-conforming DRM
drives. Check this article in Forbes about MS requiring Conforming
hardware (even external) for DRM.

http://www.forbes.com/security/2007/02/10/microsoft-vista-drm-tech-security-cz_bs_0212vista.html

As a nearly retired banker I find this corporate behavior nearly
immoral and certainly rude and non-consumer oriented. At least Steve
Jobs appears to ahve seen the light on DRM.

MS has made hardware obsolete and has created an environment of
control of standards which allows them to control the hardware
market. Seems to be the time to request Congress to get involved in
corporate management again. Corporations will not manage for consumer
interest but only for self interest.

OJC
 
Retire Fire:
I have an upgrade issue not reported by upgrade advisor nor by Dell's
upgrade advisor for XPS 600 with SATA Raid also which I thought was
my issue but I was being blocked from installing the Vista upgrade. I
think I may have found the issue as MS blocking non-conforming DRM
drives. Check this article in Forbes about MS requiring Conforming
hardware (even external) for DRM.

http://www.forbes.com/security/2007/02/10/microsoft-vista-drm-tech-security-cz_bs_0212vista.html

As a nearly retired banker I find this corporate behavior nearly
immoral and certainly rude and non-consumer oriented. At least Steve
Jobs appears to ahve seen the light on DRM.

MS has made hardware obsolete and has created an environment of
control of standards which allows them to control the hardware
market. Seems to be the time to request Congress to get involved in
corporate management again. Corporations will not manage for consumer
interest but only for self interest.

OJC
Click to expand...

I'm with you! The entertainment industry, the music side in
particular is a greedy bunch of SOB's, that's for sure. <wink> DRM is
bad news and Microsoft did chicken out.

Knowing some in the entertainment industry, here's a funny nugget few
people are aware of:

Everybody knows the little ditty called Happy Birthday. Yep we've all
sung it countless times. Yes I am referring to this:

Happy birthday to you,
Happy birthday to you,
Happy birthday dear xxx,
Happy birthday to you.

Now how many know this "song" enjoys copyright protection?

Yep, as nuts as it sounds it does, well sort of. Its a convoluted
story but both interesting and funny.

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/7/5/112441/6280

So if you go to some restaurant as is the practice in some family type
establishments for the staff to come to the table and sing "happy
birthday", since they're doing it in public and "performing" it is
considered a technical violation of copyright law.

Good God, what is this country becoming? <wink>
 
On Wed, 14 Feb 2007 06:08:39 -0800, retired fire
The caseworker at Microsoft said he would get back with me when this issue
was resloved...... Still waiting.......
Click to expand...
I guess the many MVP's have not tested installing Vista to a box with SATA
and PATA drives installed, so they really can't comment, other that to say
"contact Microsoft" which I did prior to posting....
Click to expand...
The MVP's probably haven't tried to Restore a Complete Backup from a PATA
internal drive to a SATA system drive..... so again they have no experience
on this issue, or if they have, they are not saying anything... not their
fault, they just haven't done the testing that I have.....
Click to expand...

OK sunshine, you got my attention :-)

I missed the start of this thread, so to catch up I may ask a few
things that were answered earlier.


Firstly, is your mileage a GENERIC problem with S-ATA and IDE, or is
it specifically related to a particular chipset, drivers, etc.?

I ask, because the relationship betwee S-ATA and IDE HDs can be
ambiguous at the BIOS level, and I can see how that could cause
problems. Older BIOSs may relate S-ATA to IDE in different ways,
sometimes so that S-ATA overlie IDE identities (e.g. what is really
S-ATA 0 is seen as if it were IDE primary master... too bad if there
already IS an IDE primary master...)

Also, the order that HDs are enumerated may differ from the order in
which they are booted.


Secondly: Is cloning (partition image copying) a part of the picture?
If you clone an OS partition so that both original and new copies are
visible when the OS boots, then Bad Things May Happen.

This is true in XP, and may well be true in Vista also. Furthermore,
type-spoofing the partition type byte will NOT avoid this issue.


Thirdly; are you upgrading an existing installation to Vista, or
installing Vista afresh? I ask, because if you are upgrading, there's
a risk you might inherit version-inappropriate code.

The upgrade process may weed out incompatible drivers, but miss
bundleware that taps into these. Suspect this if the system runs OK
but some Property sheet dialogs that used to have 3rd-party tabs
added, crash after the OS has been upgraded.


Fourthly: Is RAID involved? Is an add-on S-ATA controller involved?

Pointers/URLs?
Click to expand...

Please URL me on "the SATA/PATA problem"... if I Google( the SATA/PATA
problem ), the first three hits are Linux-related, then up comes this
thread. Google( SATA IDE problem ) doesn't do much better.

Let's try Google( Vista S-ATA IDE )... ah. VIA don't look too
Vista-ready...

"Systems supported: Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows Server2003,
Windows XP 64-Bit and Windows Server 2003 x64. Windows Vista, it will
be supported after V1.50a."

....so eat your socks in the meantime, eh?

This looks like IDE and S-ATA in the same ID-space...

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies-archive.cfm/682817.html

This looks like a generic cloned volume problem...

http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=56&threadID=191018&messageID=1970904

This is an interesting assertion in this thread...

http://www.techspot.com/vb/topic69327.html

"NEVER mix IDE and SATA on the same system. Windows defaults to IDE
during system errors and writes boot information. Although this setup
can and does work for some time it eventually leads to errors. Use one
type of drive or the other"

Can anyone verify this? If Windows duhfaults to dumping to IDE even
when boot and system HD is S-ATA, then we may indeed have a generic
Vista issue with S-ATA and IDE.

This one looks as if hardware issues may apply:

"4-5 days ago I unplugged just the power connection to the IDE drive
becuase I was getting ready to ditch it."

Bad idea; either disconnect the HD entirely, or leave it connected.
Data cables into dead circuitry isn't good.

"Two days ago I ditch the 80gb IDE drive for a Sata II drive. After
putting in the new drive Windows cannot boot. Ok I think w/e must have
accidently installed on the IDE drive."

It may have to do with which HD has the MBR?

Actually, it looks stranger than that...

http://www.nforcershq.com/forum/vista-install-woes-new-problem-vt68949.html

....as the presence of connected but unpowered IDE HD seems required
for his setup to work. Very odd... I wonder if hardware was damaged
by cabling and uncabling internal devices while "ATX off" but powered?

It's a title, not a qualification. You're not likely to get teh award
if you give erroneous info, and by the time you're awarded, a lot of
your posts are likely to have been evaluated.

Anyone can nominate someone for MVP, then it's Microsoft's decision to
award or not award MVP status.


--------------- ---- --- -- - - - -
Click to expand...
Saws are too hard to use.
Be easier to use!
 
In total agrreement. After many days and hours trying to resolve a raid 1
configuration and an evening chatting with a Microsoft Tech my issue was not
fixed. I had issues shutting down or restarting the machine and constanbtly
having to rebuild raid volume. In addition application did not function
properly. I finally decided to chnage my hard drive configuration to a non
raid setup. This resolved all the issues. My system now shuts down correctly
and previous issues with software resolved themselves.

The only good thing is you can change your raid cofiguration in the bios to
non raid and your back up and running in seconds. Of course it then takes
hours to resolve issues if you have Live OneCare installed. But in the end
everything worked out.

I just wish someone would advise the public and microsoft techincians should
admit that there is an issue with using raid. It may work on a raid 0
configuration but at least as a non raid you have a drive to save your
backups to.
 
In total agrreement. After many days and hours trying to resolve a raid 1
configuration and an evening chatting with a Microsoft Tech my issue was not
fixed. I had issues shutting down or restarting the machine and constanbtly
having to rebuild raid volume. In addition application did not function
properly. I finally decided to chnage my hard drive configuration to a non
raid setup. This resolved all the issues. My system now shuts down correctly
and previous issues with software resolved themselves.
Click to expand...

<rant>

There are MANY issues with Vista and SATA drives. Spending just a few
minutes surfing on the web you'll see hundreds of posts in various
forums and newsgroups and there is no single resolution that cures the
many ills reported by end users.

I'm disgusted.

I build a new system that claims to support SATA drives, picking a
high endm state of the art motherboard with all the bells and whistles
that claims to be Vista Ready in every regard for the express purpose
of AVOIDING the issues I'm now facing, like many of you.

I downloaded the latest controller drivers just released a little over
a week ago and still my SATA drives are just limping along stuck in
IDE mode or not even seen by Windows if installed as external and
configured as a SATA device.

In a word; PATHETIC!

Again there is pleny of blame to go around. Windows not being able to
correctly "see" hardware that conforms to SATA specs and not supply a
generic driver to make that possible for hardware that has been out
for well over a year is simply inexcusable but oh so typical of
Microsoft foot dragging and excuse making. Lamer still when XP can
support SATA, usually without issue.

On the hardware side not much better. My motherboard requires Intel
Matrix Storage drivers for SATA drive controllers. Intel dropped the
ball offering nothing in the way of any Vista drivers until very
recently and then only beta versions and as I've already said these do
not work correctly.

The main problem with the personal computer industry is there is NO
accountability. There should be massive class action law suits to
teach these giant companies a lesson where they will feel it... in
their bottom line. The Attorney Generals from a good portion of the
states should band together and force Microsoft and the major hardware
vendors to get their act together and hit them with massive fines or
threats of severe civil or criminal action like they did the the
tobacco industry.

The bottom line is simply this. If you walk into a hardware store and
buy a light bulb you don't worry when you get home if not not you will
be able to screw it in your lamp. It simply works. If you buy a
toaster, you plug it in and it works. You buy a TV, you flip the
switch and it works. For far too long the personal computer industry
has hid behind and bunch of half-backed excuses outright lies, and
engaging in endless finger pointing with everbody blaming everybody
else where their crap doesn't work as advertised. Well past the time
consumers get pissed off and demand the courts hold these companies
accountable just like any other business is when they dump junk on the
market that does work as claimed. After all there are many "lemon"
laws already on the books in nearly every state. Time to enforce them
on companies like Microsoft, Intel, Espon, HP and all the rest that
have gotten away with murder for years and have grown fat and lazy
deceiving and defrauding the public with false claims.

</rant>
 
Even worse my machine is a Dell XPS410 that was supposed to be VISTA ready
and came setup in a raid1 configuration. Because I did an upgrade to Vista
Dell does not want to lend support and like I said blame is pointed in every
direction.

I would of at least appreciated someone at MS letting me know that by
changing to a non-raid configuration would resolve the issues I was having.
Raid1 was great on XP PRO but with the many backup utilities built into Vista
and in addition if you install MS Live OneCare which also does a backup of
your system files having a non-raid configuration works fine. Dell never left
much of a partition on the drives to maintain backups anyway.
 
I will try to give you a brief history of the Issue:

Brand new Vista Premium built computer. Asus M2NPV-VM (on board SATA
controller, 1 gig memory, 256 meg graphics, etc.....)

Installed new Seagate 160 gig SATAII for Vista system drive.

Installed new Seagate 120 gig PATA for second hard drive. (backup purposes).

Installed clean full version of Vista Business...(only OS ever installed on
new computer).

Vista installed without any issue (no SATA driver needed). (both drives
recognized in the BIOS and in Vista....

Rebooted Vista with install disk still in DVD drive, and booted just fine...

Removed DVD install disk and rebooted, would not boot at all..

Placed DVD install disk back in DVD drive and rebooted, booted just fine..

Removed second hard drive (PATA), and completely reinstalled Vista to the
only drive in the computer (SATA), and all went without issue again, but this
time I could boot without having the install disk in the DVD drive....

Reinstalled second hard drive (PATA).... it was immediately recognized by
the BIOS and Vista.... was able to copy files to and from this drive.....

Then I went to make a Complete PC Backup of Vista to the PATA
drive.....Complete PC Backup went without a hitch..... It backed up to the
PATA drive.....

Then I went to Restore the Complete PC Backup of Vista back to the SATA
system drive, and quess what..... It did not find the SATA system driive......

Contacted Microsoft and have an open case # on this issue....

Microsoft had me remove the PATA drive and try to do a Complete PC Backup to
an external PATA drive (via USB)... Backup again went without a hitch....
and it ALSO restored back to the SATA system hard drive......

I further wanted to test this, so I again put the internal PATA drive in the
computer, and tried to restore from the external PATA drive via USB to the
SATA system hard drive, and guess what, it could not find the SATA hard drive
again.....

Hopefully this will bring you up to date on the issue.....Hopefullly I have
answered all your questions....

NOTE: Latest version of BIOS and lates version of Nvidia drivers are
installed on the system..... Boot order in BIOS is SATA first, PATA second.
All drives formated NTFS, and have not created any additional partitions....
 
One other note I failed to give you,

I also contacted ASUS (motherboard manufacturer) and they informed me that
the motherboard fully supports SATA and that the problem is not the
motherboard, but the problem is in VISTA....
 
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