SATA - PATA Bridge Trouble

[orionrobots]

I have acquired what I thought should be an adaptor to allow me to use
an older PATA hard drive (with info I need on them) with one of the
SATA slots on my Motherboard.

The motherboard has PATA IDE slots, but they are all in use - so I can
dismiss that route. So hopefully you can grasp exactly what I want to
acheive.

The bridge I have (from a fellow in HK via ebay) is based on the JMicro
JM20330 chipset (as I beleive most boards of this kind are). It has an
IDE 40 Pin connector, a SATA connector, and a small Molex Power in
connector.

It also has a small pushbutton, and three LED's. There are three
unsoldered connections for jumpers. The board has a QC Passed sticker,
and under this "HW-629 REV:1.0". on the reverse it has the text: "IDE
TO SATA Dongle Bridge R1.6". There is what appears to be a 25Mhz
Crystal on it, and a number of surface mount descrete components.

When I connect it into a HDD (Set to be Single Drive or master on its
jumper), I set it up as follows:
MOBO SATA plugged (via SATA lead) into the SATA connector on the board.
Floppy Drive Power Molex connector into SATA Board.
HDD Power connector into HDD
and 40 pin connector on the board into the back of the HDD.

Unfortunately, my BIOS does not enumerate or see the HDD. I get a
single red LED Lit on the board, and do not know if there is anything
else I need to do.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Danny Staple
http://orionrobots.co.uk

 

[Arno Wagner]

I have acquired what I thought should be an adaptor to allow me to use
an older PATA hard drive (with info I need on them) with one of the
SATA slots on my Motherboard.

The motherboard has PATA IDE slots, but they are all in use - so I can
dismiss that route. So hopefully you can grasp exactly what I want to
acheive.

The bridge I have (from a fellow in HK via ebay) is based on the JMicro
JM20330 chipset (as I beleive most boards of this kind are). It has an
IDE 40 Pin connector, a SATA connector, and a small Molex Power in
connector.

It also has a small pushbutton, and three LED's. There are three
unsoldered connections for jumpers. The board has a QC Passed sticker,
and under this "HW-629 REV:1.0". on the reverse it has the text: "IDE
TO SATA Dongle Bridge R1.6". There is what appears to be a 25Mhz
Crystal on it, and a number of surface mount descrete components.

When I connect it into a HDD (Set to be Single Drive or master on its
jumper), I set it up as follows:
MOBO SATA plugged (via SATA lead) into the SATA connector on the board.
Floppy Drive Power Molex connector into SATA Board.
HDD Power connector into HDD
and 40 pin connector on the board into the back of the HDD.

Unfortunately, my BIOS does not enumerate or see the HDD. I get a
single red LED Lit on the board, and do not know if there is anything
else I need to do.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Try a different one. I posted my experiences with two (three?) others
here some time ago. I found that many combinations of disk and adapter
(and controller?) just do not work.

Alternatively get an IDE controller card. That is a far more reliable
approach.

Arno

 

[Rod Speed]

I have acquired what I thought should be an adaptor to allow me to use
an older PATA hard drive (with info I need on them) with one of the
SATA slots on my Motherboard.

The motherboard has PATA IDE slots, but they are all in use - so I can
dismiss that route. So hopefully you can grasp exactly what I want to
acheive.

The bridge I have (from a fellow in HK via ebay) is based on the
JMicro JM20330 chipset (as I beleive most boards of this kind are).
It has an IDE 40 Pin connector, a SATA connector, and a small Molex
Power in connector.

It also has a small pushbutton, and three LED's. There are three
unsoldered connections for jumpers. The board has a QC Passed sticker,
and under this "HW-629 REV:1.0". on the reverse it has the text: "IDE
TO SATA Dongle Bridge R1.6". There is what appears to be a 25Mhz
Crystal on it, and a number of surface mount descrete components.

When I connect it into a HDD (Set to be Single Drive or master on its
jumper), I set it up as follows:
MOBO SATA plugged (via SATA lead) into the SATA connector on the
board. Floppy Drive Power Molex connector into SATA Board.
HDD Power connector into HDD
and 40 pin connector on the board into the back of the HDD.

Unfortunately, my BIOS does not enumerate or see the HDD. I get a
single red LED Lit on the board, and do not know if there is anything
else I need to do.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Check that SATA is enabled in the motherboard bios.
Quite a few have that enable/disableable, basically
because the boot is slower with it enabled.

 

[orionrobots]

It does show (by default) that it is attempting to detect (in a
seperate group) two additional IDE hard drives - cant get a screen grab
back there though. I also had a look around in the menus, and all drive
related options appeared to be enabled.

My big question is what do those LEDs on the board mean?
And what does the pushbutton on it do?

If I have a PCI slot spare, I could try an additional PCI IDE
Controller card. But as I have already paid for this, I would like to
try and get it to work first.

 

[Odie Ferrous]

I have acquired what I thought should be an adaptor to allow me to use
an older PATA hard drive (with info I need on them) with one of the
SATA slots on my Motherboard.

I personally wouldn't even bother with these adaptors.

They are incredibly quirky, to say the least.

If you need to get this drive up and running on your system, try an
external solution - USB or Firewire.

www.span.com (uk-based - I use them a lot) will have what you need.

If you're really stuck, email me via my website and I will send you a
Maxtor OneTouch housing - of which I have plenty - but you will need a
12v DC power supply for it. Just use the carcase which contains the
electronics and not the entire shell, which is effectively hermetically
sealed and will cause your drive to fail.

Odie

 

[Peter]

If you're really stuck, email me via my website and I will send you a
Maxtor OneTouch housing - of which I have plenty - but you will need a
12v DC power supply for it. Just use the carcase which contains the
electronics and not the entire shell, which is effectively hermetically
sealed and will cause your drive to fail.

From the fact that hard drive is effectively hermetically sealed in
enclosure, you cannot conclude that is going to overheat and fail. Hard
drive temperature does not neccesarily have to exceed operational limits. It
all depends on how efficiently external enclosure is cooled and what thermal
resistance exists between hard disk and enclosure.

 

[Rod Speed]

The bridge I have (from a fellow in HK via ebay) is based on the
JMicro JM20330 chipset (as I beleive most boards of this kind are).

It also has a small pushbutton, and three LED's.

My big question is what do those LEDs on the board mean?
And what does the pushbutton on it do?

Is there any obvious part number stuff on the pcb itself ?

You may be able to find some docs using google.

If I have a PCI slot spare, I could try an additional
PCI IDE Controller card. But as I have already paid
for this, I would like to try and get it to work first.

Sure, I would too.

Have you tried emailing the ebay seller ? If you havent
given him a reference yet, he may have some incentive
to ensure you dont drop a turd in his feedback.

I bought some nail clippers from someone in HK, for 1c
literally. When the jaws didnt mesh properly I demanded
satisfaction, wouldnt let him fob me off by claiming that
it must have got damaged in the post, the packaging
was fine. It took a few overs but I did get a replacement
sent and didnt have to send back the dud.

 

[Odie Ferrous]

From the fact that hard drive is effectively hermetically sealed in
enclosure, you cannot conclude that is going to overheat and fail. Hard
drive temperature does not neccesarily have to exceed operational limits. It
all depends on how efficiently external enclosure is cooled and what thermal
resistance exists between hard disk and enclosure.

For starters, I have boxes full of OneTouch cases, the hard drives from
which I have returned to Maxtor for RMA replacement. I keep the power
supplies as they are useful, but most of the external housings just go
in the bin.

I can assure you, anything placed in a OneTouch drive is a disaster
waiting to happen.

No cooling whatsoever. No heatsinks. No vents. Thermal resistance?
You mean a few millimetres of fresh air? That the best you can do?

But you're right to a degree - put a decent hard drive in there, and it
may last a few months. Put a Maxtor drive in there, and you're asking
for trouble.

If you think for one second (and clearly from your post you *do*) that
placing a hard drive in a hermetically sealed enclosure is not an issue,
then think again.

You might work from paper - but I work in the real world. The two yield
very different results.


Odie

 

[Odie Ferrous]

Is there any obvious part number stuff on the pcb itself ?

You may be able to find some docs using google.


Sure, I would too.

Have you tried emailing the ebay seller ? If you havent
given him a reference yet, he may have some incentive
to ensure you dont drop a turd in his feedback.

I bought some nail clippers from someone in HK, for 1c
literally.

I thought these HK sellers only ripped off UK buyers?

Must be wrong then. Does irk me when I'm looking for something on ebay
that's "in the UK" only to find some scrote in HK has them as "available
in the UK."


Odie

 

[Peter]

If you're really stuck, email me via my website and I will send you a

For starters, I have boxes full of OneTouch cases, the hard drives from
which I have returned to Maxtor for RMA replacement. I keep the power
supplies as they are useful, but most of the external housings just go
in the bin.

I can assure you, anything placed in a OneTouch drive is a disaster
waiting to happen.

No cooling whatsoever. No heatsinks. No vents. Thermal resistance?
You mean a few millimetres of fresh air? That the best you can do?

I'm not sure what are you asking.

Hard disk generates heat. External surface of enclosure dissipates heat.
Temperature of hard drive is Thd = Tamb + Phd*(Rhd_enc+Renc_amb).
You can exceed operational temperature of hard disk if:
1. ambient temperature (Tamb) is too high
2. hard drive is thermally insulated in enclosure (Rhd_enc)
3. enclosure is not cooled properly (Renc_amb)
4. hard disk generates (Phd) to much heat

So with given hard disk and enclosure I can still make sure that Tamb and
Renc_amb are as low as possible. If hard disk does not work too hard too
often, it also lowers average Phd. All of that prolongs hard disk life.

But you're right to a degree - put a decent hard drive in there, and it
may last a few months. Put a Maxtor drive in there, and you're asking
for trouble.

Because Maxtors tend to generate more heat than other brands, they increase
chance of overheating.

If you think for one second (and clearly from your post you *do*) that
placing a hard drive in a hermetically sealed enclosure is not an issue,
then think again.

"Is not an issue?", it might not be an issue if extra care is provided.

You might work from paper - but I work in the real world. The two yield
very different results.

What paper? What results?

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

I thought these HK sellers only ripped off UK buyers?

Must be wrong then. Does irk me when I'm looking
for something on ebay that's "in the UK" only to find
some scrote in HK has them as "available in the UK."

I havent had any problem with HK sellers at all, bought
quite a bit of small stuff like USB/irDA converters etc.

The documentation is usually a bit poor,
but its always worked fine anyway.

I dont see the point in paying a local a
margin to have him deal with HK himself.

Most of ours are HK chinese anyway, just physically in the country.

 

[orionrobots]

Thanks Rod,
Yes I have emailed him, and might see if I can get some support from
him.
The board has no markings or numbers other than those I have posted.
One annoying fact- his auction made it clear that this board was for
adapting a PATA drive for a motherboard with existing SATA connectors -
however looking at the packaging they were in (vague shelf hook
packages), it may indicate the contrary. Having googled around earlier
(before I posted), and looked at the board thoroughly, I understand the
jm20330 chipset it uses can be configured either way.

The board also looks very similar to many others on the web - down to
component placement, possibly with different solder mask colours. Most
of which are drive and not host adaptors. I have (in my query to him)
asked if he has accidentally sent me a host adaptor as opposed to a
drive one, but it does look like the drive in the auction.

danny

 

[orionrobots]

Well the drive is an 80Gb Seagate Barracuda. Taken out of my old file
server - with data I would like to retain. The motherboard is a
Gigabyte GA-K8NS.

I do have an external USB enclosure, but I dont want to use it because
it means using an additional socket and wall wart- when I know that my
PSU (a gold 550W) should be able to handle it, I dont want to occupy a
USB socket, and I really dont trust the enclosure not to overheat.
Still, keeping it in the enclosure will mean it can be hot-swapped.

I think the enlosures adaptor is USB2.0, and maybe I could rip out the
converter board, put the HDD in my case, use an internal back USB port
connector, and wire it all internally. I may have to adapt a power
connector though - as the USB enclosure has a 4 pin round type
connector. It is a job i would rather not have done, but I am entirely
capable of doing (I do build robots after all).

Danny

 

[Odie Ferrous]

I'm not sure what are you asking.

Hard disk generates heat. External surface of enclosure dissipates heat.
Temperature of hard drive is Thd = Tamb + Phd*(Rhd_enc+Renc_amb).
You can exceed operational temperature of hard disk if:
1. ambient temperature (Tamb) is too high
2. hard drive is thermally insulated in enclosure (Rhd_enc)
3. enclosure is not cooled properly (Renc_amb)
4. hard disk generates (Phd) to much heat

So with given hard disk and enclosure I can still make sure that Tamb and
Renc_amb are as low as possible. If hard disk does not work too hard too
often, it also lowers average Phd. All of that prolongs hard disk life.


Because Maxtors tend to generate more heat than other brands, they increase
chance of overheating.


"Is not an issue?", it might not be an issue if extra care is provided.


What paper? What results?

The results I am talking about are the fact that I get an awful lot of
Maxtor OneTouch drives in requiring recovery.

In practically ever case, at least one of the chips on the Maxtor drive
has flamed.

This is because, in these actual scenarios,

1. Maxtor drives themselves run extremely warm.
2. The drives themseleves, as well as running hot, seem more
susceptible to failure at higher temperatures than other drives
3. The OneTouch case, as well as being effectively hermetically sealed,
contacts with the drive only where the drive physically screws onto the
mounting frame inside. There is quite a gap between the drive and the
housing.

So, without active cooling, no heatsinks, and drives that run too hot,
the failure of OneTouch units is excessively high.

There is a class action suit against Maxtor in the USA - or at least
there was 18 months ago when I was asked if I were interested in
providing data to back up the case. All to do with selling a product
not fit for purpose.

Maxtor OneTouch are not the only external drives to suffer from this; I
have also had a large number of external "high capacity" drives that
consist of two striped hard drives in a box. LaCie is one, and Formac
the other. Plastic housings. One of them had a 40mm fan that was so
ineffective that it could be felt only by having it blow on my face - my
hands themselves could detect no air movement. With both of these, the
two drives are cramped together tightly, again with no reasonable means
of heat dissipation.

In all my recovery systems, the drives are mounted on frames in the
5.25" bays and I have 120mm fans (high output of between 60 and 86cfm -
I don't care about the noise) blowing over them. The drives themselves
run at about 3 - 5 degrees Centigrade above ambient temperatures.


Odie

 

[Mike Redrobe]

The results I am talking about are the fact that I get an awful lot of
Maxtor OneTouch drives in requiring recovery.

To be fair, external usb drives suffer more physical mishandling
when powered up than internal drives, as well as often having
less cooling as you say.

So, without active cooling, no heatsinks, and drives that run too hot,
the failure of OneTouch units is excessively high.

Do SMART temperature readings bear this out?

In all my recovery systems, the drives are mounted on frames in the
5.25" bays and I have 120mm fans (high output of between 60 and 86cfm
- I don't care about the noise) blowing over them. The drives
themselves run at about 3 - 5 degrees Centigrade above ambient
temperatures.

...and how hot are the external usb case drives?

 

[Rod Speed]

Thanks Rod,

Yes I have emailed him, and might see if I can get some support from him.

The board has no markings or numbers other than those I have posted.
One annoying fact- his auction made it clear that this board was for
adapting a PATA drive for a motherboard with existing SATA connectors
- however looking at the packaging they were in (vague shelf hook
packages), it may indicate the contrary. Having googled around earlier
(before I posted), and looked at the board thoroughly, I understand
the jm20330 chipset it uses can be configured either way.

The board also looks very similar to many others on the web - down
to component placement, possibly with different solder mask colours.

Surely the leds and button should be documented somewhere if that's the case ?

Most of which are drive and not host adaptors. I have (in my query
to him) asked if he has accidentally sent me a host adaptor as
opposed to a drive one, but it does look like the drive in the auction.

Yeah, that's a real possibility.

Maybe one of the jumpers needs to be set for the config you want.

 

[Rod Speed]

Odie Ferrous wrote:

To be fair, external usb drives suffer more physical mishandling when powered
up than internal drives, as well as often having less cooling as you say.

Yeah, I've often wondered about the wisdom of
the fad for having them stand up vertically. Gotta
see quite a few fall over while operating etc.

Do SMART temperature readings bear this out?

No easy way to get the SMART temp with USB drives.

 

[orionrobots]

Surely the leds and button should be documented somewhere if that's the case ?

Yeah, that's a real possibility.

Maybe one of the jumpers needs to be set for the config you want.

This is exactly my thinking. But, there were no docs, and with very
little on the board in terms of ID, my attempts to find online docs or
datasheets were fruitless.

I tried to see if I could find a JM20330 datasheet online, but found I
may have to pay a few quid for one. Still not heard back from the guy,
but if he could at least give me some docs - then I would be well
chuffed. It would be an easy job to solder in a couple of jumper posts
in the slots for the jumpers (currently not soldered in place). I am
dying to find out exactly what the momentary pushbutton is for...

 

[Folkert Rienstra]

To be fair, external usb drives suffer more physical mishandling
when powered up than internal drives, as well as often having
less cooling as you say.


Do SMART temperature readings bear this out?

What "SMART temperature readings". These are not IDE connected.

 

[Arno Wagner]

For starters, I have boxes full of OneTouch cases, the hard drives from
which I have returned to Maxtor for RMA replacement. I keep the power
supplies as they are useful, but most of the external housings just go
in the bin.

I can assure you, anything placed in a OneTouch drive is a disaster
waiting to happen.

No cooling whatsoever. No heatsinks. No vents. Thermal resistance?
You mean a few millimetres of fresh air? That the best you can do?

Still better than vaccuum, but not much ;-)

But you're right to a degree - put a decent hard drive in there, and it
may last a few months. Put a Maxtor drive in there, and you're asking
for trouble.

If you think for one second (and clearly from your post you *do*) that
placing a hard drive in a hermetically sealed enclosure is not an issue,
then think again.

Sealed is ok, as long as there is a thermal path. I have some
Agrosy Aluminium external cases, and they do fine for modern
Samsung and Seagate disks. The disk is in direct contact with
the Aluminium on the full length of one side. The cooling is not
enough for older Maxtors, I recently had one heating up to the
point that it started to get access troubles (long delays).

You might work from paper - but I work in the real world. The two yield
very different results.

Paper is good if there is realistic input data that represents the
real world. If the input data and assumptions are flawed, paper
can tell you arbitrarily wrong things.

Of course the real world allways has realistic input data and
assumptions and therefore can never fail to represent the real
world realistically ;-)

In other words: Theoretical models are nice, but a look at the
real thing in operation is still needed to be sure the models
are correct. If you do that, theory can give you a lot of insights
with far less effort.

Arno