SATA Drives and Heat

[Richard Alexander]

I bought a FIC AU13 motherboard and case from Outpost.com a few months
ago. It has worked pretty well, but recently, the CPU has begun
overheating. With the case closed, the CPU reaches 130° F, though it
only runs about 120° F with the case side removed. This problem
appears to coincide roughly with the addition of another SATA hard
drive in the case.

My current computer configuration is:

120 GB SATA hard drive in removeable bay
60 GB PATA hard drive internally mounted
250 GB SATA hard drive internally mounted
CD-RW drive
DVD-ROM drive
PATA Docking drive
floppy drive
GeForce 2 MX video card
USB keyboard
PS/2 keyboard
USB externally-powered hub
USB trackball
PS/2 mouse
AMD Athlon XP 2200+
1 GB RAM

I can't tell from the markings on the power supply what it is rated,
but it may be a 300 Watt supply.

The case is mid-sized, so things are a little cramped inside. There
are also no case fans, and I'm only using the HSF that came with the
uP chip. I'm using the legacy power connectors for the SATA drives,
instead of the serial power connectors.

As I say, the overheating appears to coincide with sticking the 250 GB
hard drive in my system.

Is there something about SATA that adds unusual heat to the system?
Would an overloaded power supply produce too much heat?

 

[Brad]

you say you`ve got a cramped small case with no case fans....

hmm... doesn`t take a genius to work it out really does it.......
i got a Aopen H600A case with 5 silent case fans and the standard video card
, cpu and power fans....
i got 2 SATA seagate drives on raid0 that each has a 80mm fan....
great airflow equals cooler case...cold air in from the front and out at the
back...
the Hard drives do get warm but no more than PATA drives...
Airflow is the name of the game... i`ve never had a problem..

Brad...

 

[Bobby]

That is a dangerously high temperature for your CPU.

 

[kony]

That is a dangerously high temperature for your CPU.

130F = 54C
Not an ideal temp but low enough to be stable and not anywhere near a
danger level... that is, if we could assume the ambient room temp will
stay low in summer, the CPU was put under a fair load instead of just
idling, and that the motherboard's temp report is accurate, or at least
that motherboard reading isn't less than the actual temp.

 

[S.Heenan]

My current computer configuration is:

120 GB SATA hard drive in removeable bay
60 GB PATA hard drive internally mounted
250 GB SATA hard drive internally mounted
CD-RW drive
DVD-ROM drive
PATA Docking drive
AMD Athlon XP 2200+

I can't tell from the markings on the power supply what it is rated,
but it may be a 300 Watt supply.

The case is mid-sized, so things are a little cramped inside. There
are also no case fans, and I'm only using the HSF that came with the
uP chip. I'm using the legacy power connectors for the SATA drives,
instead of the serial power connectors.

You need at least two 80mm cases fans. One intake in the lower front and one
exhaust in mid-back of the case.

Is there something about SATA that adds unusual heat to the system?
Would an overloaded power supply produce too much heat?

7200 RPM hard drives get warm. With little or no case airflow, the internal
case temperature just keeps rising.

You should also look at a good quality 400W PSU. A 300W unit is OK for a
minimal amount of hardware.

 

[Richard Alexander]

That is a dangerously high temperature for your CPU.

[/QUOTE]

130F = 54C
Not an ideal temp but low enough to be stable and not anywhere near a
danger level...

I believe the temperature is a big part of the reason my computer has
been operating oddly, including the generation of many Windows
critical errors ("caused" by a driver, Windows XP Home says) and
subsequent reboots. It may not be the entire reason, though.

that is, if we could assume the ambient room temp will
stay low in summer,

The room should not rise about 85 ° F while I am running the computer.

the CPU was put under a fair load instead of just idling,

Most of the time, I'm just posting my insights to Web and Usenet
forums on static HTML pages. In the near future, though, I plan to put
the $600-worth of video and graphics editing software I just purchased
to good use.

The temperatures I reported are after an hour or two of normal Web
surfing. I notice that when I turn on my computer, the BIOS reports a
temperature of 90° F, which rises about one degree every 20 seconds.

and that the motherboard's temp report is accurate, or at least
that motherboard reading isn't less than the actual temp.

Oddly, the HSF does not seem all that warm when I touch it. I have no
other way to confirm CPU temperature.

 

[kony]

I believe the temperature is a big part of the reason my computer has
been operating oddly, including the generation of many Windows
critical errors ("caused" by a driver, Windows XP Home says) and
subsequent reboots. It may not be the entire reason, though.

At 54C the CPU should still be stable at stock speed, but if the system
had a weakness anyway it might be more subject to instability with higher
CPU temp. "Usually" the CPU temp is the only issue, but combinations of
questionable parts or configurations can compound the problem.

The room should not rise about 85 ° F while I am running the computer.

The issue isn't necessarily what the temp will be, but if it will rise
over it's current temp... a room temp rise of 5C (in Summer or Winter near
a heat vent, when sun is in a room or whatever the reason) can be expected
to make CPU temp rise similarly, 5C.

Most of the time, I'm just posting my insights to Web and Usenet
forums on static HTML pages. In the near future, though, I plan to put
the $600-worth of video and graphics editing software I just purchased
to good use.

Likely you'll see at least another 5C temp rise when compressing the
video, but far lesser contiunous load from image editing.

The temperatures I reported are after an hour or two of normal Web
surfing. I notice that when I turn on my computer, the BIOS reports a
temperature of 90° F, which rises about one degree every 20 seconds.


Oddly, the HSF does not seem all that warm when I touch it. I have no
other way to confirm CPU temperature.

As others have suggested you need to consider more case cooling. If your
drives are blocking the case air intake vents then there's a potential for
an added drive to so significantly increase temps. Add a fan(s) if
possible, or at least drill some holes in the front of the case to allow
more air intake, around those hard drives if possible. Also check the
case's front bezel, it too much have even more air intake openings.

You'll have to test at full load to know what your peak temp is, then add
any ambient room temp rise that you anticipate as I mentioned above.
Popular programs to crease a full load include "CPUBurn", or one better to
test CPU stability is "Prime95", in stress test mode... either should run
without crash or error for several hours. Both are easily found with a
Google search.

 

[DaveW]

You need a larger output GOOD QUALITY power supply, and a case with built in
multiple cooling fans.

 

[~misfit~]

Oddly, the HSF does not seem all that warm when I touch it. I have no
other way to confirm CPU temperature.

That could be a bad sign (I've haven't been following this thread), it could
mean that the thermal interface between your CPU and HS isn't as good as it
could be.

Just a thought (that has nothing to do with SATA drives).

 

[Spajky]

That is a dangerously high temperature for your CPU.

[/QUOTE]

130F = 54C
Not an ideal temp but low enough to be stable and not anywhere near a
danger level...

Right, totally normal for that CPU if read from onDie diode; Bobby
should visit my site & read a bit stuff with temps how they stay ...


-- Regards, SPAJKY ®
& visit my site @ http://www.spajky.vze.com
"Tualatin OC-ed / BX-Slot1 / inaudible setup!"
E-mail AntiSpam: remove ##

 

[Richard Alexander]

I bought a FIC AU13 motherboard and case from Outpost.com a few months
ago. It has worked pretty well, but recently, the CPU has begun
overheating. With the case closed, the CPU reaches 130° F, though it
only runs about 120° F with the case side removed. This problem
appears to coincide roughly with the addition of another SATA hard
drive in the case.

This is a follow-up to my original post.

My case only has provision for one case fan, so I installed a case fan
such that it would blow room air across the CPU. I only have 3 inches
of available space in the front of my case (various drives line the
rest), so I don't have room for a fan there.

I found that my bottom two hard drives, my 60-Gig PATA and my 250-Gig
SATA, were getting extremely hot. I had mounted them right on top of
each other, so I raised the top drive to another bay, which allows
about an inch of air space between those two drives.

I've also spent the last few hours swapping out packages of Blue Ice
inside my computer. I'm nervous about condensation, but I have a towel
underneath it. The frozen Blue Ice just barely touches the bottom of
the internal hard drive bay. I figure (and hope) that the hard drive
is hot enough to evaporate any condensation that might form, and that
seems a valid assumption. The drive is running cooler, but it's still
quite warm, enough to sting my thumb when held against it.

So far, my computer has not spontaneously rebooted, today. It
spontaneously rebooted several times yesterday (at least 3 times,
maybe more while I was out of the room).

 

[kony]

This is a follow-up to my original post.

My case only has provision for one case fan, so I installed a case fan
such that it would blow room air across the CPU. I only have 3 inches
of available space in the front of my case (various drives line the
rest), so I don't have room for a fan there.

It might be easier to visualize this if we knew what case you're using...
any chance of a line to picture of one? If it's a semi-popular case there
might be pics found using http://groups.google.com/imghp?

3 inches if enough room for either a 60mm, 70mm fan(s) or 3 inches worth
of holes.

If that case fan you installed is on the rear wall of the case, blowing
IN, it may be further decreasing the airflow at the bottom front of the
case. If so, reversing it to blow outward and adding the holes or fan(s)
in the front may resolve this, it's the most common case configuration
that works ok for many people, though some cases start out worse than
others when it comes to airflow/vents.

I found that my bottom two hard drives, my 60-Gig PATA and my 250-Gig
SATA, were getting extremely hot. I had mounted them right on top of
each other, so I raised the top drive to another bay, which allows
about an inch of air space between those two drives.

I've also spent the last few hours swapping out packages of Blue Ice
inside my computer. I'm nervous about condensation, but I have a towel
underneath it. The frozen Blue Ice just barely touches the bottom of
the internal hard drive bay. I figure (and hope) that the hard drive
is hot enough to evaporate any condensation that might form, and that
seems a valid assumption. The drive is running cooler, but it's still
quite warm, enough to sting my thumb when held against it.

So far, my computer has not spontaneously rebooted, today. It
spontaneously rebooted several times yesterday (at least 3 times,
maybe more while I was out of the room).

Condensation is theoretically pure water, it shouldn't conduct
electricity... don't know know about blue ice goo, if any were to leak
out.

That seems like quite a bit of effort though just to cool some drives.
More often people remove the case side panel and point a fan at the
drives. Similarly, when a case doens't have enough room for a fan in
front or rear it may be possible to cut out a hole, install a fan in that
side panel. However the drives certainl won't make the system reboot,
providing you're not runing WinXp with it's "reboot on error" setting
turned on.

So it seems likley it was the CPU, that the fan helped. Even cutting out
some vent holes in the side panel may help, towards the lower front
corner, or up some nearest the drive bay, so that this air intake helps to
cool the hard drives rather than only decreasing any other current
airflow, if any, already provinging some cooling, though apparently not
much if the "thumb test" is painful.

If you have a free 5.25 external bay(s) you might consider mounting a
drive or two in those, in a hard drive cooler. Then again if all else
fails there's always the obvious solution, a different case.

 

[Toshi1873]

This is a follow-up to my original post.

My case only has provision for one case fan, so I installed a case fan
such that it would blow room air across the CPU. I only have 3 inches
of available space in the front of my case (various drives line the
rest), so I don't have room for a fan there.

I think it's time for you to invest in a good quality
case. Find one like the Antec Sonata or Antec p160 that
has a 120mm fan dedicated to drawing air across the hard
drives. Plus, the larger size of the Antec p160 case
(or other mid-tower / full-tower cases) means lower spot
temps.

I found that my bottom two hard drives, my 60-Gig PATA and my 250-Gig
SATA, were getting extremely hot. I had mounted them right on top of
each other, so I raised the top drive to another bay, which allows
about an inch of air space between those two drives.

I've also spent the last few hours swapping out packages of Blue Ice
inside my computer. I'm nervous about condensation, but I have a towel
underneath it. The frozen Blue Ice just barely touches the bottom of
the internal hard drive bay. I figure (and hope) that the hard drive
is hot enough to evaporate any condensation that might form, and that
seems a valid assumption. The drive is running cooler, but it's still
quite warm, enough to sting my thumb when held against it.

It doesn't take much to cool a hard drive, just a
minimal amount of air-flow to whisk away the heated air.

 

[Richard Alexander]

[snip]

It might be easier to visualize this if we knew what case you're using...
any chance of a line to picture of one? If it's a semi-popular case there
might be pics found using http://groups.google.com/imghp?

Yes, I found the exact model of case, though my particular case is
black with silver front panel:

FRESH FIELD BTO
3808 case
http://www.fresh-field.co.jp/sokunou/case/YCC3808.html

I did not intend to buy a case from Outpost.com when I ordered the
motherboard. I have other cases I could use, including my $70
full-sized tower case (I think it is an Antec, but I don't know the
model) that has been empty for nearly 2 years.

3 inches if enough room for either a 60mm, 70mm fan(s) or 3 inches worth
of holes.

Maybe it would be, if there weren't also a few USB and audio sockets,
a small "speaker" and the wire run for the front panel controls in
that space.

[snip]

Condensation is theoretically pure water, it shouldn't conduct
electricity... don't know know about blue ice goo, if any were to leak
out.

The Blue Ice isn't likely to leak. Even when melted, it is viscous,
and encased in thick plastic. I haven't been allowing it to thaw
completely before I replace the melted bag with a fresh bag.

However the drives certainl won't make the system reboot,
providing you're not runing WinXp with it's "reboot on error" setting
turned on.

What setting?

So it seems likley it was the CPU, that the fan helped.

I should have been more clear. I ran my system with the new fan for a
week, but it still rebooted. I have run it two days with the Blue Ice
packs, and it does not reboot as long as I have the frozen packs
against the drives. It did, however, reboot last night, when I allowed
it to run without the Blue Ice pack.

Even cutting out
some vent holes in the side panel may help, towards the lower front
corner, or up some nearest the drive bay, so that this air intake helps to
cool the hard drives rather than only decreasing any other current
airflow, if any, already provinging some cooling, though apparently not
much if the "thumb test" is painful.

If you have a free 5.25 external bay(s) you might consider mounting a
drive or two in those, in a hard drive cooler. Then again if all else
fails there's always the obvious solution, a different case.

I only intended this computer to be a stop-gap measure, because my old
system was failing and corrupting the hard drives more and more often.
I wanted my next computer to be a hefty unit. Most likely, I'll take
some stuff off this machine and put them in my new machine, when the
time comes. I just hope I don't destroy my hard drives from the heat
in the meantime.

 

[kony]

[snip]

It might be easier to visualize this if we knew what case you're using...
any chance of a line to picture of one? If it's a semi-popular case there
might be pics found using http://groups.google.com/imghp?

Yes, I found the exact model of case, though my particular case is
black with silver front panel:

FRESH FIELD BTO
3808 case
http://www.fresh-field.co.jp/sokunou/case/YCC3808.html

Due to the bezel design and ports on the bottom it's more difficult to
"fix" that case but primarily I'd cut out the rear fan grill and drill
many holes in front of the HDD bay, then see how much air can come in
from the underside edge of the bezel, raising the case up an inch on
taller feet and cutting out the bezel bottom as much as possible, probaby
right after it turns at an angle from the front face so there's a lip
there, providing a bit of structural support. Taking a strip of plastic
and epoxying it into that area as a cross-brace could help compensate for
any weaknesses too, but if the case will just be sitting there, not
hopping around and other circus tricks then it probably doesn't need too
much reinforcement.

I did not intend to buy a case from Outpost.com when I ordered the
motherboard. I have other cases I could use, including my $70
full-sized tower case (I think it is an Antec, but I don't know the
model) that has been empty for nearly 2 years.

I'd use one of those other cases, not necessarily the full tower unless
you have room for it and that happened to be the best ventilated around
problem areas, not just more fans overall.

Maybe it would be, if there weren't also a few USB and audio sockets,
a small "speaker" and the wire run for the front panel controls in
that space.

They obvoiusly didn't have good airflow in mind when they designed that,
it looks more suitable for a Pentium 1 era system.

What setting?
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/columns/russel/02may13.asp



I should have been more clear. I ran my system with the new fan for a
week, but it still rebooted. I have run it two days with the Blue Ice
packs, and it does not reboot as long as I have the frozen packs
against the drives. It did, however, reboot last night, when I allowed
it to run without the Blue Ice pack.

Very odd. Switch to one of the other cases, though if there's a chance of
adding a fan in front of the other case(s)'s HDD bay you might do that
ahead of time, if it involves cutting metal or other dirty work.

I only intended this computer to be a stop-gap measure, because my old
system was failing and corrupting the hard drives more and more often.
I wanted my next computer to be a hefty unit. Most likely, I'll take
some stuff off this machine and put them in my new machine, when the
time comes. I just hope I don't destroy my hard drives from the heat
in the meantime.

It seems odd that they need the Blue Ice though, generally a well-placed
fan is enough.

 

[Richard Alexander]

kony <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

[snip]

What setting?

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/columns/russel/02may13.asp

Thank you for that link. I did not even know that Microsoft had such
columns. I think it is useful to gain a fuller understanding of what
the software and hardware is doing, and what features it has.

I must say, though, that all the general troubleshooting suggestions
that I have ever read are just a bunch of jackasses jawing off. If
they really had a clue what was wrong with the system, they first off
would have fixed the OS by now (I've been listening to MS' promises to
have fixed the problems for over a decade), and second off wouldn't be
telling us, "It might be this, or this, or this, so just keep swapping
out parts until it happens to work." The most annoying phrase I hear
when I ask for help is, "Have you updated your drivers?" I want to rip
out someone's throat when I hear that! Coincidentally, about 80% of
the time when my current computer reboots, it comes up with a browser
window, stating that the crash was caused by a device driver (but no
further information is available--so, how does MS' software know it is
a device driver?). If I wanted to disassemble and reassemble my
computer completely every time a problem cropped up, I certainly would
not be looking for suggestions on fixing the problem. I can walk up to
a car that is broken down on the side of the road and tell within 5
minutes what system is likely broken on it, and what needs to be done
to fix it. That's because I have a clue how it works. Computer repair
techs spend days, and often never do figure out what's wrong.

OK, that's my rant. It's nothing personal; I do that every time I read
a troubleshooting page.

Very odd. Switch to one of the other cases, though if there's a chance of
adding a fan in front of the other case(s)'s HDD bay you might do that
ahead of time, if it involves cutting metal or other dirty work.

Last night, I went into the Control Panel and set the power settings
to turn off the hard drives after 45 minutes of inactivity. That is
working well, as my 250 Gig hard drive only runs when I am doing
photographic or video work. Even so, I'm a little nervous, because the
reboots began when I installed my first SATA drive (they just weren't
all that frequent).

[snip]

It seems odd that they need the Blue Ice though, generally a well-placed
fan is enough.

One other thing, which you cannot tell from the photographs of the
case, is the layout inside the case once all the hardware is
installed. Most particularly, imagine a modern motherboard installed
on the back plate of the case. Where would you expect to find the AGP
slot? Right in the middle, right? Image a card in that slot. Imagine
hard drives in the bays to the right, and cables coming out. Notice
that the card makes an effective wall across the middle of the case.
There is only a 3.5 inch gap between the AGP video card (GeForce 2 MX)
and the hard drives, not counting the cables on the back of the hard
drives.

I don't know what Outpost was thinking when they stuck this
motherboard in this case, but it is obvious the case is not suitable
for supporting the potential of the motherboard.

 

[kony]

Thank you for that link. I did not even know that Microsoft had such
columns. I think it is useful to gain a fuller understanding of what
the software and hardware is doing, and what features it has.

I wasn't trying to find you a Microsoft article though, it just happened
to be randomly selected from a Google search.

Computer repair
techs spend days, and often never do figure out what's wrong.

Well they may HAVE your system for days, but it'd be quite rare for them
to spend that much time on it... and that may be a good thing. A
competent tech/shop may charge $50 per hour or more, so how much time
would it be reasonable to have them spend? It's not unheard of for a
simple motherboard diagnostic (they run some gee-whiz-bang all-in-one
software), new board purchase, swap, and windows reinstall to cost upwards
of $300.

OK, that's my rant. It's nothing personal; I do that every time I read
a troubleshooting page.

I just remind myself that PCs are still in their infancy, in a few dozen
more years these problems might be sorted out.

One other thing, which you cannot tell from the photographs of the
case, is the layout inside the case once all the hardware is
installed. Most particularly, imagine a modern motherboard installed
on the back plate of the case. Where would you expect to find the AGP
slot? Right in the middle, right? Image a card in that slot. Imagine
hard drives in the bays to the right, and cables coming out. Notice
that the card makes an effective wall across the middle of the case.
There is only a 3.5 inch gap between the AGP video card (GeForce 2 MX)
and the hard drives, not counting the cables on the back of the hard
drives.

That's not too bad though... I "recycled" an old Gateway 2000 case and
added an aluminum drive rack to the bottom front, put 2 x 92mm fans in
front of the rack, and with the hard drive sticking out near the top rack
slot I had to make a power connector right-angle adapter just to be able
to plug it in, as the edge of the drive is less than 1 cm from the end of
a Geforce 3 Ti500 that was placed in it. I ended up leaving the PCI slot
just below the card, empty, and that case slot-bracket cover off to allow
airflow though it... though I usually do that regardless of the spacing of
drives and video card. The case ended up quite cramped, but with proper
cable management and 2 rear case fans added, it ended up with better case
airflow than almost anything that could be bought today, at least at any
reasonable noise level.

I don't know what Outpost was thinking when they stuck this
motherboard in this case, but it is obvious the case is not suitable
for supporting the potential of the motherboard.

They weren't thinking, they just wanted $.

 

[Richard Alexander]

kony <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

[snip]

OK, that's my rant. It's nothing personal; I do that every time I read
a troubleshooting page.

I just remind myself that PCs are still in their infancy, in a few dozen
more years these problems might be sorted out.

I must admit, this realization adds to my desire to describe the
failings of modern computers. Some day, when computers no longer have
these problems, people will see my comments and realize that I was a
lone voice pointing towards the brighter day, attempting to shake my
contemporaries from their apatheic acceptance of really crummy
systems.

[snip]

I "recycled" an old Gateway 2000 case and
added an aluminum drive rack to the bottom front, put 2 x 92mm fans in
front of the rack, and with the hard drive sticking out near the top rack
slot I had to make a power connector right-angle adapter

Um, make? OK, I'm impressed!

I have the mental knowledge of what needs to be done, and I could draw
a picture of what the final product needs to look like, but I feel
completely dis-motivated (or anti-motivated) to make such things. It
will take a major amount of motivation for me to grab my drill and
punch some holes in my case. I'm not likely to make anything.

[snip]

Thank you so much for all the help you have offered me in this thread.
I'll probably be posting again. For one thing, I have a special
project that I would like to undertake, to make my vehicle a mobile
data collection probe (primarily a hemispherical video collection
probe, but I'm happy to add other sensors, too). I will save that for
its own thread.

 

[kony]

I must admit, this realization adds to my desire to describe the
failings of modern computers. Some day, when computers no longer have
these problems, people will see my comments and realize that I was a
lone voice pointing towards the brighter day, attempting to shake my
contemporaries from their apatheic acceptance of really crummy
systems.

Lone voice?
I fully expect to see people going postal left and right, even if they
have to fly to india to see their "favorite" tech support person.

Um, make? OK, I'm impressed!

I dont' even remember what it is now, I've got a veritabe zoo of old OEM
boxes here. I look them over really good, then a few months later I've
decided what to do with 'em. They lack some of the niceties of modern
cases, like rolled edges, but then the metal is thick enough that a
non-rolled edge isn't like the edge of a razor blade like it'd be on some
of today's boxes... and the price is right since I don't really care if my
case looks like it was beamed down from a UFO.

I have the mental knowledge of what needs to be done, and I could draw
a picture of what the final product needs to look like, but I feel
completely dis-motivated (or anti-motivated) to make such things. It
will take a major amount of motivation for me to grab my drill and
punch some holes in my case. I'm not likely to make anything.

It's much harder to get motivated when it's an often used, built system.
Not so bad when just an empty case sitting there, or two cases, three,
etc, so you can do similar tasks to multiple cases in succession.

Thank you so much for all the help you have offered me in this thread.
I'll probably be posting again. For one thing, I have a special
project that I would like to undertake, to make my vehicle a mobile
data collection probe (primarily a hemispherical video collection
probe, but I'm happy to add other sensors, too). I will save that for
its own thread.

I"m sure the group will do what they can to help but there might be some
more specialized group with others having prior hands-on experience with
vehicle sensors and such.