Samsung 4k drives and there software for them

[Jim]

I've just bought a couple of these F4 2TB drives (the 4k [AF] ones), now
given I'm still running XP I had to use there "Acronics Align Tool" so I
downloaded it, installed it and ran it and it done what it needed to do and
came back saying drive was now fine.

Now I took a drive image before I done this, so can I go back on old image
(of course Acronics Align Tool will not be on it) and will the 2TB drive
work fine, given Acronics Align Tool will no longer be on machine or do I
have to have the software on the machine all the time.

I will never be cloning from this drive nor will I be cloning to it either.

Just don't want anything on machine I don't need to have that's all.

Jim

 

[Rod Speed]

I've just bought a couple of these F4 2TB drives (the 4k [AF] ones),
now given I'm still running XP I had to use there "Acronics Align
Tool" so I downloaded it, installed it and ran it and it done what it
needed to do and came back saying drive was now fine.

Now I took a drive image before I done this, so can I go back on old
image (of course Acronics Align Tool will not be on it) and will the
2TB drive work fine, given Acronics Align Tool will no longer be on
machine or do I have to have the software on the machine all the time.

No you dont.

 

[Arno]

I've just bought a couple of these F4 2TB drives (the 4k [AF] ones), now
given I'm still running XP I had to use there "Acronics Align Tool" so I
downloaded it, installed it and ran it and it done what it needed to do and
came back saying drive was now fine.

Now I took a drive image before I done this, so can I go back on old image
(of course Acronics Align Tool will not be on it) and will the 2TB drive
work fine, given Acronics Align Tool will no longer be on machine or do I
have to have the software on the machine all the time.

The image will be fine but slow, as it will not be aligned
properly for 4k sectors.

I will never be cloning from this drive nor will I be cloning to it either.

Just don't want anything on machine I don't need to have that's all.

Then just uninstall the tool?

Arno

 

[Jim]

I've just bought a couple of these F4 2TB drives (the 4k [AF] ones),
now given I'm still running XP I had to use there "Acronics Align
Tool" so I downloaded it, installed it and ran it and it done what it
needed to do and came back saying drive was now fine.

Now I took a drive image before I done this, so can I go back on old
image (of course Acronics Align Tool will not be on it) and will the
2TB drive work fine, given Acronics Align Tool will no longer be on
machine or do I have to have the software on the machine all the time.

No you dont.

Rod I have just an email back from Samsung saying that I MUST have Acronics
Align Tool installed otherwise drive will be out of alignment, guess my move
to 7 will be sooner then I thought

 

[Rod Speed]

I've just bought a couple of these F4 2TB drives (the 4k [AF] ones),
now given I'm still running XP I had to use there "Acronics Align
Tool" so I downloaded it, installed it and ran it and it done what
it needed to do and came back saying drive was now fine.

Now I took a drive image before I done this, so can I go back on old
image (of course Acronics Align Tool will not be on it) and will the
2TB drive work fine, given Acronics Align Tool will no longer be on
machine or do I have to have the software on the machine all the
time.

No you dont.

Rod I have just an email back from Samsung saying that I MUST have Acronics Align Tool installed otherwise drive will
be out of alignment,

Thats not what the web page says.

guess my move to 7 will be sooner then I thought

Why change OS just so that doesnt have to be installed ?

 

[willbill]

The image will be fine but slow, as it will not be aligned
properly for 4k sectors.

Is "Advanced Format 4K sectors" a factor in choosing
a recent HDD partitioning software product?

What do *you* use (bootable CD) for a recent
HDD partitioning software product?

Bill

 

[willbill]

If you want to be sure your partitions are aligned with the 4K blocks
for better performance, there are several methods. One is to use a 4K
drive with a hardware jumper for offsetting the blocks so that logical
512 byte sector 63 is aligned - that's only really useful for the first
partition (which DOS and XP put at sector 63 by default) - it's not much
use if you have more than one partition unless you make sure that /all/
partitions start at sector numbers 8n+7.

But the easiest way is to use a partitioning tool other than the XP
installer - put your partition(s) in the right place, then do your
install/copy/restore or whatever. There are lots of good, free
partitioning tools available - probably even fdisk in windows will let
you make aligned partitions if you are happy calculating the numbers
yourself.

I don't know anything about the "Acronics Align Tool", but if it is
anything like WD's Align Utility, then it works by moving all your
partitions so that they are aligned. It's a slow process, but only
needs to be done once. WD's tool is not something you "install", it is
only run a single time.

What do *you* use (bootable CD) for a recent
HDD partitioning software product?

There /may/ be good reasons for installing Win 7 (I can't think of any
myself - if I have to use Windows, I prefer XP).

Sort of agreed. But I've recently set up my
1st PC with Win 7/64 Pro and it impresses me
as an improvement over XP.

But the automatic
response from an ignorant Samsung service droid hardly counts.

I've got my 1st "Advanced Format 4K sectors" 2GB drive
showing up tomorrow.

Looked at WD and Samsung, but went with Seagate green.
5900 RPM and SATA 6Gb/s with 64MB buffer and
"Seagate SmartAlign Technology" seemed like
icing on the cake.

Bill

 

[willbill]

On 01/06/2011 16:23, willbill wrote:

I use System Rescue CD (a Linux bootable CD or USB image). I didn't
mention any, because if the OP is familiar with Linux then he would
probably already know that such Linux live CDs exist (or he would at
least know that any Linux installer will partition a disk), and if he
wanted a Windows program then others in this newsgroup are better
qualified to give suggestions.

I made no mention of Windows in that sentence.

I have zero plans of actually loading it to my
Win7/64 machine! Nor to my Win XP PC's!

I just want a *bootable* disk that will do aligned
partitions (for the new HDD that have 4k sectors),
and as much else that might be useful for this
type of thing.

BTW, I haven't done all my homework yet,
but this is what I've dug up so far:

I see Avanquest Partition Commander 10
on Newegg as maybe my "expensive"
choice at $45, but don't know how old it is
(ignore %20 in the ref as that is in fact a space
in the web page that get's pulled up):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832334062&Tpk=Avanquest Partition Commander 10

Also wikipedia has this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_disk_partitioning_software

.... which lead me to MiniTool's Partition Wizard at
several price points, including a free version
and a low(er) cost paid version of $29. See price
info at:
http://partitionwizard.com/buy.html

Any help/ideas on what to choose will
be greatly appreciated.

Bill

 

[Arno]

Is "Advanced Format 4K sectors" a factor in choosing
a recent HDD partitioning software product?

Indeed, it is.

What do *you* use (bootable CD) for a recent
HDD partitioning software product?

gparted via Knoppix. I think it does 4k alignment
automatically now, but I do not have any
internal 4k disks at this time. Externals, I use
unpartitioned and the issue does not arise.

Arno

 

[Rod Speed]

Jim wrote

Jim wrote

I've just bought a couple of these F4 2TB drives (the 4k [AF] ones),
now given I'm still running XP I had to use there "Acronics Align
Tool" so I downloaded it, installed it and ran it and it done what
it needed to do and came back saying drive was now fine.
Now I took a drive image before I done this, so can I go back on old
image (of course Acronics Align Tool will not be on it) and will the
2TB drive work fine, given Acronics Align Tool will no longer be on
machine or do I have to have the software on the machine all the time.

No you dont.

Rod I have just an email back from Samsung saying that I MUST have
Acronics Align Tool installed otherwise drive will be out of alignment,

That conflicts with
http://wdc.custhelp.com/app/answers...ment-tool-to-realign-an-advanced-format-drive

which clearly isnt installed at all since its run from a booted CD, so the
Samsung droid must have had a brain fart or misunderstood your question.

 

[willbill]

Indeed, it is.


gparted via Knoppix. I think it does 4k alignment
automatically now, but I do not have any
internal 4k disks at this time. Externals, I use
unpartitioned and the issue does not arise.

Does gparted format NTFS and FAT32 partitions?

Bill

 

[Arno]

Does gparted format NTFS and FAT32 partitions?

What does the filesystem have to do with the partitioning?
That is a different thing. Nonetheless, gparted also allows
you to create a FAT32 filesystem on an existing partition.
For NTFS, you have to fall back to Windows, but windows
can create NTFS on exiting partitions.

Arno

 

[Arno]

gparted is a partitioner, which as you say has nothing to do with
filesystems - filesystems go on top of the partitions. But it
conveniently offers a menu to run the various mkfs programs to create
filesystems - and that includes NTFS if you have a bootable CD with NTFS
support (Knoppix does, as does System Rescue CD).

Ah, I see. I am using a bit older version that could not (yet)
create NTFS.

So you use gparted to make the partitions you want, aligned as you want.
You then have the choice of formatting them while still running from
the Live CD, including NTFS and FAT32 - and including large partition
FAT32 systems that Windows will happily use, but will not format.

One of my reasons for doing that with Linux. Defective by
marketing in Windows.

Or
you can leave the disk partitioned but unformatted, and let Windows (or
its installer) format them later.

Indeed. I also found that when usong gparted to modify partition
sizes and shift them around, it is much, much more reliable
than the commercial PartitionMagic.

Arno

 

[Arno]

On 01/06/11 20:34, willbill wrote: [...]
I gave you a suggestion - System Rescue CD. Here is the link:
<http://www.sysresccd.org/>

Why anyone would /pay/ for partitioning tools is beyond my comprehension.

Flashier GUI and lower reliability. PartitionMagic gives you both.

Arno

 

[Arno]

Linux tools have let you partition on 4K boundaries - or any other
boundary you want - since their conception. Most partitioning tools -
for Linux, DOS, Windows or whatever - will let you manually specify your
start sector.

So what you /really/ mean to ask is do System Rescue CD's partitioning
tools /automatically/ align to 4K boundaries, since you are unable to
divide a number by 8 yourself? Then yes, the main partitioning tools on
a modern version of System Rescue CD will automatically partition to 1
MB boundaries (SSD's often prefer larger alignments) unless you manually
pick different values. (System Rescue CD has several partitioning tools
for different uses or preferences - some command line, some graphical).

Take care that this is a newer thing on Linux. The tools that
use 4k (or multiple boundaries) were changed to that in the
last 6-12 months or so. To verify, divide the displayed
sector offsets by 8 or the byte offsets by 4096. There
should not be a fractional part in the result.

Arno

 

[willbill]

I gave you a suggestion - System Rescue CD. Here is the link:
<http://www.sysresccd.org/>

Thank you. I'll check it out.

Why anyone would /pay/ for partitioning tools is beyond my comprehension.

While I tend to agree, I'm not adverse to paying
a small amount ($19 or $29) for something like
Acronis True Image Home 2010 which permits
me to easily make clone backups (internal HDD
to a temporarily plugged in HDD (via internal sata
and power cables))

It's not clear to me if my existing HDD (512B sectors)
are aligned on 4k boundaries.

Since Seagate is claiming that their Green 2TB
internal HDD (and also the 1.5TB, both 3 platter
drives) gives good performance regardless
of alignment, I'm thinking I'll just run what I have,
check the timings (I expect their 5900 Green
HDD to be faster than my 1TB 7200 drives due
to the higher recording density and bigger
sector size).

Do you know of a program (that functions from
a bootable CD) that will tell me if my HDD
partitioned on 4k boundaries?

Bill

 

[Arno]

No, the tools have /always/ supported 4K boundaries. What has changed
in the last couple of years is that they have aligned on 4K (or
typically 1 MB) boundaries by /default/. There's a big difference.

Indeed. That is why I wrote "use". Maybe "use by default" would have
been clearer.

Also note that Linux has had full support for 4K sector sizes for many
years - long before anyone thought that disk sizes would one day be
measured in TB. The only problems have been because these new disks lie
about their sector size - if they had followed the specifications and
reported their true 4K sector size, then there would have been no
problem with Linux (or MacOS, or other systems) - but Windows would have
been confused.

Yes, an old problem. As I used MODs with 2k sectors for quite a
long time, I know about that. (I think the 2k sector size option to
plain Linux fdisk was added because I complained. Now it also
offers 1k and 4k. The default is still 512B though.)

It was the lying that caught Linux developers by
surprise, so that it took a bit of time before the partition tool
maintainers changed the defaults, and for those changes to roll down to
popular distros.

Indeed. There may also have been some unwillingness to have the
tools do 4k (pr multiple thereof) alignment while the devices
claim they have 512B sectors. MS holding the world back, as usual.
Fortunately losing a few MB is not an issue with todays storage
sizes, and I think the solution to use 1MB alognment is rather
elegant and also helps a bit with SSDs that have even larger real
sector sizes than 512B.

Arno

 

[Arno]

"David Brown" replied:

:
[.....]
I think the solution to use 1MB alognment is rather
elegant and also helps a bit with SSDs that have even larger real
sector sizes than 512B.

Who uses (or advocates using) 1MB alignment?
Why is it elegant or better than just 4K alignment?
(Sorry for my lack of background info.)

See my reply to Arno - hopefully that will give you some idea.

Which reply to Arno? I do see:

"No, the tools have /always/ supported 4K boundaries. What
has changed in the last couple of years is that they have aligned
on 4K (or typically 1 MB) boundaries by /default/."

But that only refers to some nebulous "tools". Which *OSes*
use 1MB alignments by default in their partitioning utilities and/or
installation disks, and why is 1MB alignment elegant or better
than 4K alignment?

*TimDaniels*

None. Partitioning is not an OS task. The partitioning utilities
are not part of an OS. You are looking at this from the wrong
angle.

Arno

 

[Rod Speed]

David Brown wrote

Timothy Daniels wrote

Thats just plain wrong. He clearly said UTILITYS.

He didnt say it was.

He didnt say they were. They do howevere come with the OS most of the time.

Nope, yoiu are mindlessly hair splitting.

Yes, and both can resize and move partitions in Disk Management as well.

What Arno means here is that it is not an operating system that
handles partitioning - partitioning (and partition resizing/moving)
is handled by an application program.

And Tim specifically mentioned those utilitys.

Many of these run under an OS (such as gparted or cfdisk that are included with most Linux distributions and System
Rescue CD, or Windows disk utilities that come with Windows), while others are stand-alone (like Partition Magic).

So Vista the OS has no abilities to manipulate partitions - the disk
partitioning software that comes with Vista has these abilities.

Thats very arguable, particularly when resizing and moving partitons under Disk Management.

This distinction is perhaps a bit academic,

Completely silly in fact.

but I believe Arno is making the point so that you will realise that partitioning is not an OS-specific issue.

It is when you consider the utilitys that come with the OS.

You can use any tools in any system to manipulate the partitions,

And can use what comes with the OS.

and use them from any other OS.

Thats just plain wrong.

 

[willbill]

Thank you. I'll check it out.

[/QUOTE]

Turns out that System Rescue CD is a 300MB download.

I use dialup and a download like that would
take me 20 hours.

Interestingly, www.linuxcd.org sells ver. 2.1.0
(32 bit) of it on CD at $1.75 so I'll order it there,
as well as current gparted and clonezilla and ubuntu.

If it's not a bootable CD, can I make it into
a bootable CD?

FWIW, the one other place I've ordered Linux
software from (at reasonable low cost)
is www.osdisc.com

Yes, but Acronis does vastly more than just partition a disk - and it's
features and interface are possibly worth paying for. After all, it's a
program you use many times.

Of course, there are plenty of free alternatives (Clonezilla being a ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
popular choice) with similar or related features.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Agreed.

FWIW I just spent yesterday and an hour+ this
morning trying to install that 2TB Seagate drive
that has 4k sectors, as my 2nd of two HDD
that the PC has.

Turns out that while Acronis True Image Home 2010
seemed to do the clone of my PC's 2nd HDD OK
(2nd HDD has 512B sectors, to the new 4k sector
Seagate 2TB Green), something didn't get set right.
So while the PC (Win7/64) still booted OK, it didn't
see any data on HDD #2.

So I simply plugged in the new Seagate Green
as the 2nd HDD, and temporarily had the "old"
2nd HDD (512B sectors) sitting just outside my
PC (with temp cable connections) so that I could
partition and copy my 100GB fat32 partition to
the new 4k sector Seagate Green drive.

That also seemed to go OK, but in the process
something screwed up my Win7/64 boot drive.

Spent an hour+ this morning recovering.

And learned that while I was able to use Acronis
True Image Home 2010 to do a recovery, it got
complicated because the 1st boot attempt came up
with: "A kernel file is missing from the disk. ..."

I had to boot from the Win7/64 CD 3 times (slow;
roughly 10+ minutes each time) in order
to finally get back to a functional PC.

So I'll give clonezilla a serious try.

Use the partitioning software on System Rescue CD, and look at the
existing partition. If the start sector numbers are divisible by 8, it
is aligned properly.

Thanks for that.

For others, this ref helps with "divisible by 8":
"Western Digital’s Advanced Format: The 4K Sector Transition Begins"
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2888

Bill