Reporting with Beta2 (old build)?

G

Guest

Now that there has been a few upgraded builds for Vista which we can't
participate n until RC1 is realsed is it fruitless reporting issues found now
with the customer beta2 build as things are already fixed/refined and only
the current Betas are the ones considered for reported issue?

I know we can go on testing our applications and finding our way round the
vast amount of tools/security features but I was just wondering about the
actual bug reports when we are a few builds behind the main Beta testers?

The commuinty forums are very useful when problems are encountered no matter
what build we have but when I run check for updates to any reported bugs
nothing comes back now.
 
M

Mark D. VandenBerg

--
Mark

My favourite so far: Unknown device has been correctly installed.


pippin said:
Now that there has been a few upgraded builds for Vista which we can't
participate n until RC1 is realsed is it fruitless reporting issues found
now
with the customer beta2 build as things are already fixed/refined and only
the current Betas are the ones considered for reported issue?

I know we can go on testing our applications and finding our way round the
vast amount of tools/security features but I was just wondering about the
actual bug reports when we are a few builds behind the main Beta testers?

The commuinty forums are very useful when problems are encountered no
matter
what build we have but when I run check for updates to any reported bugs
nothing comes back now.

Not necessarily. I just yesterday received the double emails for a bug I
submitted in early June. Also, each build may not necessarily be a direct
descendant of the previous build. So for all we know, the direct successor
to 5384 may not have been released yet. And then again, maybe it has. And
will RC1 be directly in line from 5384? Don't know that, either. All I
know is, when I submit something using the MBC, I get a small feeling of
satisfaction.
 
G

Guest

I was very excited when I reported a few and saw a reply arriving only to be
told 'Will be fixed next release' :) but I don't know what.....

Thank you for your reply & advice on this. I have found a bug atm
I am posting this from my laptop with Firefox as my computer with IE7
(Vista) would not let me read you reply (blank page = error on page)
I could make a new post if I wanted but your reply was blank as my laptop
was on I tried with Firefox, read and replied to your post :)

This is a valid point regarding our installs as RC1 may or may not be fully
related to those ahead of us. Good as I do enjoy testing but was discouraged
in case it wasn't really of benefit to the next release. Thank you.
 
S

Steve Urbach

Now that there has been a few upgraded builds for Vista which we can't
participate n until RC1 is realsed is it fruitless reporting issues found now
with the customer beta2 build as things are already fixed/refined and only
the current Betas are the ones considered for reported issue?

I know we can go on testing our applications and finding our way round the
vast amount of tools/security features but I was just wondering about the
actual bug reports when we are a few builds behind the main Beta testers?

The commuinty forums are very useful when problems are encountered no matter
what build we have but when I run check for updates to any reported bugs
nothing comes back now.
Thank you for asking the question that had been bothering me.

And thank you others that report that feedback may take lots of time.
I will continue to file bug reports.

Steve
 
C

Chad Harris

*Reporting bugs by the public to MSFT for Vista is as Effective as Yellin'
at the TV*

Crank up your cmd prompt in ole 5472 and try sfc /? and see how many "We
beoutta order--We gone fishin' We don' know if we'll ever be back" switches
that Jill Zoeller and the Core File Services team have left on your
doorstep. It's just Beta is that it? It's just Beta about to be RC2. SFC
worked in XP way before. And the greater lines of code should have nothing
to do with it working.

All these cheerleaders for the icon, and the other means of feedback by the
public, some named and linked on this group and many missed are wasting
yourtime and theirs. Notice they have not one shred of evidence that the
bugsare read, and that anything is done. A softie braying how much feedback
iimportant to them from the public with specious, sententious
convolutedlanguage as is done on for example Corey Snow's blog--the
developerassociated with Connect is even more evidence that it's not.

MSFT doesn't give two shits about input from the CPP! Get used to it.

They never have and they never will. It's a company with some interesting
and often nice products but no one does arrogance and disingenuous better
than MSFT.

Other than the financial promotion aspect, MSFT couldn't give two shits
about the "CPP or the so-called CPP testers. That's why they have all
those pios blogs with nebulous specious bullshit about their concern but
have never showcased a stepwise mechanism for the submission of bugs, the
metabolism of them, and the public beta.

MSFT has a build or two a day. They've moved two builds the hell past Beta
2 (5384.5) as to their bug focus. One thing consistent though is that many
of the bugs are still there--they just change the build name (lol). The
bugs get a house with a new address. Instead of 5384 MSFT Way, Building
5384on the MSFT campus, it becomes 5456.5

I like the .5 which has deep Zen meaning--and whose existence is necessary
for Vista to ship.

Many of the TBTs have been trying for months to get some major bugs fixed
and have been talking to a collection of tin/incompetent ears.

System File Checker--yet another "interim" build--yawn--still doesn't have
any switches that mean fix and replace working. I truly think no one on
the Vista team who is responsible for SFC remembers it's in the Windows
OS--Core File Services or whomever. Win Mail newsgroup toolbars-- have the
stability of a Katusha rocket in Hezbullah hands after 6 drinks at Crystal
or Minot--2 of the usta be top bars in Beirut until Hezbollah got it in a
sling.

Bright and helpful as Colin is, other than give a mantra that the bugs or
any form of input gets serious attention from the CPP to Redmond because I
suppose Colin thinks it's the loyal thing to do since he gets the MVP swag
at Redmond once a year, access to MVP groups and some closed blogs and
possibly because some people think if they toe the party line, they'll be
invited to any of the 200 plus betas they want-- or he's a nice guy and
doesn't want to speak ill of the mother Windoz/Redmond ship.

Colin Barnhorst and Mark Gillespie can't give you any tangible examples of
how bugs from the unwashedpublic impact anything done on a team at
Redmondbecause there aren't any.

An "attaboy" from Colin or Mark , as well meant and sincere as it is, is
useful to encourage you to try new software from MSFT. You should. You
should also, as time permits, try Linux, Apple, Firefox, and Opera and a
gamut of 3rd party tweakers to the Windows OS--it gives you perspetive and
it's fun.

But it's simply ludirous to think this company gives a damn about feedback
from the public. The only feedback they look at is the sales numbers. When
RTM time comes around, they'll slap RTM on that sucker, have a series of
parties, get the choppers and the media out with great fanfare whether
they've fixed major bugs are not.

I can offer a panoply of evidence as to their ignoring major features that
are right now Dead on Arrival. Windows File Protection is but one.

It has occured to me that Vista is "a Beta" but in a larger sense so is
Windows XP and all the other software that comes from Redmond. There is no
reason that SFC's switches can't work after 13 months of official Beta and
its existence since Windows 98 with the 3rd build since Beta 2 about to
drop.

Jane had this yadayada but when asked to document how her bugs were
makingimpact--silence.

There is all this specious, sententious holier than thou crap on blogs from
MSFT, but none of the bloggers ever demonstrates anything substantive to
indicate public bugs are handled in any meaningful way None of the blogs--
Corey Snow's from Connect who rambles with more meaningless yammering
aboutthe firerce loyalty of MSFT to the public, the Windows Vista "team
blog"
that Nick White does on Tech Net (as if there were one team when there are
thousands of people working on aspects of Vista in a very complicated and
somewhat disorganized way), or Paul Donnelly's recently birthed blog "A
Bug's Life" ever demonstrate that public input has any impact whatsoever.

One symptom that public bug reporting doesn't mean jack shit is that there
is a public MBC (bug reporting tool) and the thing is buried deep within the
forums of MSDN blogs. However, unlike the setup for TBT Beta Testers as
opposed to unwashed CPPs (that Redmond couldn't give two shits about other
than cheerlead you with advertising on their sites and bombard you with
emails to buy their product in droves--there is no organized mechanism
whatsoever to get feedback or have any interaction with MSFT unles you want
to consider a Technet Live Meeting interaction where there is often no time
for questions or time for one question.

There ain't no newsgroup where you're gonna see those people to follow up
and in the Beta there is often this bullshit "see you in the groups" when
they have no intention whatsoever of seeing or talking to you anywhere.
*They want to see your money so they can get more toys.* It's plain old
Redmond capitalism. "Show them your money" as Cuba Gooding said in the
movie.

They pay for shit tech support by turning the idiots at Convergys of Ohio on
their sucker public customers who speak broken English predominantly from
call centers in India where they are minimum waged butts in seats.. The
quality tech support takes place free of
charge on public newsgroups and forums because many of us feel compelled to
clean up a lot of their non-intuitive messes slapped together into an OS.

It ought to be painfully obvious that a very basic marketing principle is to
seed the public's interest in your product some way. "CPP" is it. MSFT is
capable in the marketing area, and Vista has some fine features. Actually
search has excellent potential in Vista if they can get Dr. Gary Flake to
get it organized.

The use of metatags for searching pics and music is one. Another is the
attempt in Event Viewer (which most of the MSFT customers never heard of and
never touch) to try to centralize a file format .elf and .evt files. The
problem is, they still have a tin ear as to the failure of error information
in that
the logs are still ectopically and metastatically writtten all over the 4
corners of Vista although each program is supposed to register its errors
with event viewer. The logs are as impossible to decifer as ever, which is
why when Beta testers had trouble getting Vista on their boxes, they were
encouraged to send the logs to MSFT for interpretation. That ain't being
done with the unwashed CPP.

So called "Restart Manager" and the "Resouce Exhaustion Detection and
Recovery" feature (most people will never have heard of it when Blackcomb
RTMs in 5-6 years) are admirable feature attempts at stability, even though
they fail miserably much of the time. They can be a pain in the ass to hang
up on when they stall, even with Task Man trying to put them to bed. The
idea is to have continual monitoring of the system and to manage virtual
memory's commit level supposedly. Previous versions is an excellent idea.

The attempts at auto repair, and Win CE/STartup repair are. Unfortunately
they are indifferent to the fact they will be screwing their projected 400
million OEM customers out of access to Win RE's features because they won't
be able to access it with the DVDs from OEM or the crap partitions just as
nearly 100% of them couldn't for six years in XP with the worthless recovery
discs that wouldn't do a repair install or get their OS back because it was
short a ton of lines of code from the XP CD that does repair installs. If
you're easily snowed by superficial eye candy then they've done a great job
marketing a buzz/and superficial mystique about Aero Glass. Talk about
underwhelming.

Watch the look on the face of one of their excellent Technet evangelists
live as he dutifully goes through Aero Glass Flip 3D/and Windows Flip--boy
I know when I need help with Vista instead of ole "cool switch," I'll just
hit the keys for Windows Flip and Flip 3D and everything will be copacetic.

"While in the Flip 3D environment, you can scroll through the list of open
windows using your mouse's scroll wheel. You can also use the Left Arrow
andRight Arrow keys to move through the stack of windows. Simply let go of
the Windows Key to exit Flip 3D and select the window that is visually on
top of the others in the window stack."

"One interesting feature of Flip 3D (and Windows Flip) is that the Windows
Desktop now shows up as one of the running tasks. So now you can jump
directly to the desktop as well, which is handy."

Oh boy. That's killer.

CH

The only effective way to have a Cease Fire with Hezbullah, Syria or Iran is
when each of these is down for the count and can't fire anymore. That's the
only way Lebanon's "non-democratic puppet paper machet government" will
function. Same as in the dysfunctional Iraq chaos crafted by the US.

Israel is refusing to make the Fiasco Mistake the US Made in Iraq:

Fiasco: The American Military Adventure in Iraq (Hardcover)
by Thomas Ricks
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/159420103X/102-3215667-3228953?redirect=true
 
C

Chad Harris

Send your bugs to direct email addresses,I have taken to doing my best to
provide direct emails of either a Vista PMon a team responsible for the bug
since MSFT has failed to provide any
meaningful mechanism for bug reporting by the public or to someone who has
the capability to get the bug to them. I can quickly tell when someone
isnot sincere about being reached, and in this setting that someone is MSFT.

Email bugs to Nick White (e-mail address removed) or Corey Snow
(e-mail address removed) two Softies who gush about how much feedback means to
MSFT but offer no substantive way it is handled to butress the crao they
spew, Nick White recently tossed crums to the peasants in the form of a few
brief bullet points on a few of the changes in RC1 while ignoring the fact
that MSFT is not transparent because it keeps the public from seeing their
Beta chats and Vista Live Meetings that are frequent during the week for
TBTs. Let them route them to the appropriate team instead of throwing them
away down a black hole where nothing will be done with them. If MSFT were
serious about the public, they'd open up there closed chats and Live
Meetings full of Vista information and updates to them.

They absolutely refuse.

If they were serious about the public understanding bugs, they'd open up
Connect so the public cn have access to search bug reports.

They absolutely refuse.

If they were serious about the public understanding bugs, they would make
bug fixes and their relative status public.

They absolutely refuse.

If they were serious about the public understanding Vista, they'd post more
complete and substantive information. System Restore, System File Checker,
and Win RE including Startup Repair have next to no info on any MSFT site
and the Product Guide is an insult to anyone who reads above second grade
level.

CH
 
G

Guest

This would then be the reason when I received e-mails followed the link I had
no permission to view. I spent days entering my username and trying to work
out why until recently I discovered we were not part of the real Beta who
have genuine access. I would love to have had the access just to read and
learn. I did get a reply telling me I wasn't a registered beta tester but
soon realised we are testing the public version with the communtiy for
support. Thank you for adding to this reply, would be great if things were
more open 'read only' would make things clear for our mysterious replies.
 
C

Chad Harris

MSFT has little actual interest in reading and learning in respect to
Windows Vista. You might want to contact the Bill and Melinda Gates
foundation and the individuals in charge of computers in schools and 3rd
world countries ( a way to sell more Windows) for that activity.

If MSFT gave a damn about your learning Vista, the Beta chats, the Beta Live
Meetings wouldn't be closed and their tech writers would get off their asses
and put substantive content on Vista on their sites. To date little of this
has happened.

CH
 
R

Roges Hyspeed Internot Slurport

Chad Harris said:
MSFT has little actual interest in reading and learning in respect to
Windows Vista. You might want to contact the Bill and Melinda Gates
foundation and the individuals in charge of computers in schools and 3rd
world countries ( a way to sell more Windows) for that activity.

If MSFT gave a damn about your learning Vista, the Beta chats, the Beta
Live Meetings wouldn't be closed and their tech writers would get off
their asses and put substantive content on Vista on their sites. To date
little of this has happened.

CH
<snip>
Register for technet and get some invites.
7 years and I only been to a few sessions but still get invites.
 
C

Chad Harris

Thanks Roges--

I always check the technet Live Meetings, and many of them are good for
Office and for Vista, and other topics. You can print all the slides to .pdf
with one mouse click.

But none of what I'm referring to is available via Technet or MSDN--it's
witheld as "secret" by MSFT with the result is a compromise in the public's
learning curve and ability to use and understand Vista.

CH
 
C

Chad Harris

Colin--"propitiary my ass."

If you can make the semantic distinction between propitiary in this context
and secret, then be my guest.

1) We're not talking about the formula for Coke.
2) We're not talking about Lockheed or Boeing Designs or Intel or AMD's next
processors and chips.
3) We;re not talking about the pathetic way that MSFT VP for Legal and
General Counsel Brad Smith flew the MSFT material availability into the
ground with the European union costing the company hundreds of millions of
dollars.
4) We're not talking about concepts of where to take
Blackcomb/Vienna/whatevah

We're talking about simple educational material. And I've seen it. It's
not propitiary in the damn least Colin. Nothing gets transmitted in those
Live Meetings or Beta chats that anyone who writes corporate articles in the
Harvard Business Review, writes for Business Week, Fortune, or Forbes would
even remotely consider propitiary. How could you invoke such a friging
formal word?

Getting information out about topics like Win RE ain't propitiary. Nothing
on those chats or in the Live Meetings is the least bit propitiary. There
is in fact, very little that TBTs are asked not to do. They are asked not
to do direct pastes from newsgroups although Bink and Thurott and scores of
others who have been on the Redmond campus since doing it and while doing it
have not been stopped.

They are asked to keep the build drops Oh so quiet when I can find you a
thousand web sites that track the build drops every scintilla of every
nanosecond when there are hints to Beta Testers that the build is about to
drop, and immediately when it drops so the myth that any of that is "secret"
or "propitiary is crazy.

I'm talking about getting information out that make people better Vista
users--I'm talking education. I'm not talking about the Road Map and plans
for the MSFT version of the Ipod or Ray Ozzie's perception of Web 2.0 or
code features that any company would protect.

I'm saying when there is a Beta Chat on UAC or Automatic Repair or Backup
that there is no damn reason it has to be kept from the public. I know that
it's not a capacity problem because I've seen chats with 500 and I've seen
chats with much much less. I know that Live Meetings have routine
information but it is also information that MSFT has failed to make
available to the public.

Give me one single example of anything propitiary. Anyone btw who thinks
that when builds are released is "propitiary" or "secret" is delusional.
It's a lot more about trying to build a little mystique ala Steve Jobs and
making some people who love their sense of being elite feel special.

They are no more special and have no more talent than a good part of the
bell shaped public. I've seen a ton of their mistakes. Many of them can't
even figure out how to post in the appropriate group.

CH
 
C

Colin Barnhorst

And you're perfectly welcome to it. :)

Chad Harris said:
Colin--"propitiary my ass."

If you can make the semantic distinction between propitiary in this
context and secret, then be my guest.

1) We're not talking about the formula for Coke.
2) We're not talking about Lockheed or Boeing Designs or Intel or AMD's
next processors and chips.
3) We;re not talking about the pathetic way that MSFT VP for Legal and
General Counsel Brad Smith flew the MSFT material availability into the
ground with the European union costing the company hundreds of millions of
dollars.
4) We're not talking about concepts of where to take
Blackcomb/Vienna/whatevah

We're talking about simple educational material. And I've seen it. It's
not propitiary in the damn least Colin. Nothing gets transmitted in those
Live Meetings or Beta chats that anyone who writes corporate articles in
the Harvard Business Review, writes for Business Week, Fortune, or Forbes
would even remotely consider propitiary. How could you invoke such a
friging formal word?

Getting information out about topics like Win RE ain't propitiary.
Nothing on those chats or in the Live Meetings is the least bit
propitiary. There is in fact, very little that TBTs are asked not to do.
They are asked not to do direct pastes from newsgroups although Bink and
Thurott and scores of others who have been on the Redmond campus since
doing it and while doing it have not been stopped.

They are asked to keep the build drops Oh so quiet when I can find you a
thousand web sites that track the build drops every scintilla of every
nanosecond when there are hints to Beta Testers that the build is about to
drop, and immediately when it drops so the myth that any of that is
"secret" or "propitiary is crazy.

I'm talking about getting information out that make people better Vista
users--I'm talking education. I'm not talking about the Road Map and plans
for the MSFT version of the Ipod or Ray Ozzie's perception of Web 2.0 or
code features that any company would protect.

I'm saying when there is a Beta Chat on UAC or Automatic Repair or Backup
that there is no damn reason it has to be kept from the public. I know
that it's not a capacity problem because I've seen chats with 500 and I've
seen chats with much much less. I know that Live Meetings have routine
information but it is also information that MSFT has failed to make
available to the public.

Give me one single example of anything propitiary. Anyone btw who thinks
that when builds are released is "propitiary" or "secret" is delusional.
It's a lot more about trying to build a little mystique ala Steve Jobs and
making some people who love their sense of being elite feel special.

They are no more special and have no more talent than a good part of the
bell shaped public. I've seen a ton of their mistakes. Many of them
can't even figure out how to post in the appropriate group.

CH
 
C

Chad Harris

MSFT as a communicator of Vista material and Vista How To's and Vista
information for people who want detailed practical information on using
Vista gets a solid F-minus. They have a tin ear in communicating Vista
material and I was in a live chat with one of them a couple hours ago who
saw exactly what I mean. Some of them have a hard time getting it as well
and Vista is nearly 13-14 months old.

There is no positive constructive reason for witholding information on Live
Meetings, Chats and decent articles on the sight from the public.

CH
 
C

Chris Sidener

Proprietary? ;-)

Chad Harris said:
MSFT as a communicator of Vista material and Vista How To's and Vista
information for people who want detailed practical information on using
Vista gets a solid F-minus. They have a tin ear in communicating Vista
material and I was in a live chat with one of them a couple hours ago who
saw exactly what I mean. Some of them have a hard time getting it as well
and Vista is nearly 13-14 months old.

There is no positive constructive reason for witholding information on
Live Meetings, Chats and decent articles on the sight from the public.

CH
 

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