Recommendations for a surge protector?

[Red Fox]

Recently, I had a thread running here about an ASUS motherboard that had
quit working. I replaced it with an Intel and, after about a day of running,
I had an urgent message from an Intel prog that a power surge was in
progress. I shut down immediately and have not yet started it up again. I
now suspect good ole PG&E has a lumpy electric supply and I believe there is
a strong possibility that it blew the ASUS board.

I do have a Tripp Lite protector that is still functioning but I have lost
confidence in it and I need a replacement. I looked through the Consumer
Reports (CR) web site but it seems they have not done any rating of surge
strips recently. I don't know of any other independent organizations that do
these tests. CR does some good articles on computer protection otherwise.

Recommendations and comments appreciated.

RF

 

[Red Fox]

I recently purchased an APC UPS 750. Very pleased with it. Check on
line for periodic sales or free shipping or rebates (from trusted
sources): New Egg, Office Depot, and the like.

Thank you John and Shelly.

I had another suggestion that I am also considering - a constant voltage
transformer, which costs a bit more but I think it would be better
protection. Still chewing on it

Have a great weekend.

RF

 

[Red Fox]

Thanks Kony for your expertize

What exactly do you mean? If you mean that your motherboard
hardware monitoring application reported a voltage in excess
of the high threshold, that isn't necessarily a power surge
from your electric company causing it, rather the PSU itself
is either not working properly or not appropriately matched
to the system (current per rail) requirements.

I was so worried that I shut it down when I saw the word surge. I tried to
view the file, that did the monitoring, in this old computer to see what the
usual messages are. It would not load, so I will have to boot the Intel to
find that info. You could be right that I may have shut down too quickly but
remember that I have been researching and ordering for about 2 weeks now. I
didn't want all that work zapped in a few seconds, so I was just playing
safe. PC P&C gives out very little info with their products - just how to
install. There are some specs available - an extract is shown below. It has
regulation of 3% or 5% but I don't know how much variation in the electric
service those figures would represent. For example, would they still be
valid for a 20v drop or rise?

Do you have any other equipment which was not working
properly, or any other evidence there was an AC line,
voltage problem?

In the present old box, I had a small drive go belly up two days ago. It may
have been age and I did think of the possibility of a surge, but is it
likely that the 5V DC connections could suffer much from a surge? The PSU
was an Enlight. However, it added to my doubts about the Tripp Lite.

Tripp Lite makes some fairly good protectors in their upper
end products, I'd resist replacing it unless you know for
sure it's bad. I'm wondering about your PSU, as the PSU
itself should have shut off if it were outputting
excessively high voltage. What make and model PSU was this?

That's good news. The PSU is a PC P&C Silencer 610 EPS12V.

ULTRA-QUIET PSU: SILENCER® 610 EPS12V
a.. 610W Continuous @ 40C (670W Peak)
b.. Up to 90% (10dB) Less Noise per Watt
c.. EPS12V / NVIDIA® SLIT Certified
d.. High Efficiency (83%); .99 Active PFC
e.. +12VDC @ 49A (Large Single Rail)
f.. 24-pin, 8-pin, 4-pin M/B Connectors
g.. 2 PCI-E and 15 Drive Connectors
h.. Automatic Fan Speed Control Circuit
i.. Black Finish (Copper on request)
j.. 3-Year Warranty and Tech Support
PS, It's not even quiet - it's noisy. It may be quiet as 600W PSUs go.
The specs are at: http://www.pcpower.com/products/assets/S61EPS/specs.pdf
Regulation: 3% (+3.3V, +5V, +12V) ; 5% (-12V) : Ripple: 1% (p-p) : Hold
Time: 16ms : PG Delay: 300ms
My question here is, would these numbers still be good if there was a
significant electric power surge? If so, I see no reason not to go back to
the new box.

If you decide to replace the Tripp Lite, you might get
another one. Either I'm misunderstanding what you have
written above or it doesn't seem to me that (we) know yet
that there was an AC line problem or that the surge
protector needs replaced. A bad PSU outputting excessively
high voltage can kill a motherboard without any kind of AC
line problems being present.

Very interesting. I'm very glad we have you on this NG Kony

Have a great weekend.

RF

 

[Red Fox]

Yes, it should either stay in regulation over this range, or
if the range was worse it should shut off.

The puzzling part is that you report this as an "intel"
originated, which would mean it is not a reading of the AC
line at all, only the motherboard sensors of the PSU output.
PSU output does not float along with AC line voltage, it is
regulated at several dozen KHz per second to compensate for
even the 60Hz sine wave of the AC power, which is obviously
varying by more than 20V continually.



I would sooner suspect the Enlight had a capacitor failure.
An AC surge of only moderate magnitude, mild enough that
system stayed running and other equipment had no damage,
should not have fryed parts connected only to the PSU.




Define significant.
We all use PSU, and the majority of computer users don't
have anything more than a cheap $10 surge strip, yet their
computer works fine. That doesn't resolve any problems
unique to your location though, but we have not yet isolated
this as being an AC power surge and based on your info so
far, there is no reason to expect it was an AC surge. An AC
power surge bears no direct relation to a motherboard
software report of a voltage out of spec.

Thanks again Kony for all your wise comments.

Seems like I need to return to kindergarten to get refreshed on the basics.
Of course, single phase jogs up and down, while the 3 phase just ripples.
You have given me enough confidence to switch on the upgraded computer and
watch for that Intel warning message. Will let you know what happens,
assuming of course that the box doesn't catch fire and I get barbecued ;-)

Back soon.

Have a great weekend

RF

 

[John Weiss]

I do have a Tripp Lite protector that is still functioning but I have lost
confidence in it and I need a replacement. I looked through the Consumer
Reports (CR) web site but it seems they have not done any rating of surge
strips recently. I don't know of any other independent organizations that do
these tests. CR does some good articles on computer protection otherwise.

I recommend you get a small APC UPS instead of just a surge protector. You can
get the 350-500 VA models for not much more than you'd pay for a good surge
protector, or you can get a 1300-1500 VA model that will protect from spikes,
surges, and brownouts for $150 or less (<$100 if you find a good closeout or
sale).

 

[Shelly]

Recently, I had a thread running here about an ASUS motherboard that had
quit working. I replaced it with an Intel and, after about a day of running,
I had an urgent message from an Intel prog that a power surge was in
progress. I shut down immediately and have not yet started it up again. I
now suspect good ole PG&E has a lumpy electric supply and I believe there is
a strong possibility that it blew the ASUS board.

I do have a Tripp Lite protector that is still functioning but I have lost
confidence in it and I need a replacement. I looked through the Consumer
Reports (CR) web site but it seems they have not done any rating of surge
strips recently. I don't know of any other independent organizations that do
these tests. CR does some good articles on computer protection otherwise.

Recommendations and comments appreciated.

RF

I recently purchased an APC UPS 750. Very pleased with it. Check on
line for periodic sales or free shipping or rebates (from trusted
sources): New Egg, Office Depot, and the like.

 

[kony]

Recently, I had a thread running here about an ASUS motherboard that had
quit working. I replaced it with an Intel and, after about a day of running,
I had an urgent message from an Intel prog that a power surge was in
progress.

What exactly do you mean? If you mean that your motherboard
hardware monitoring application reported a voltage in excess
of the high threshold, that isn't necessarily a power surge
from your electric company causing it, rather the PSU itself
is either not working properly or not appropriately matched
to the system (current per rail) requirements.

I shut down immediately and have not yet started it up again. I
now suspect good ole PG&E has a lumpy electric supply and I believe there is
a strong possibility that it blew the ASUS board.

Do you have any other equipment which was not working
properly, or any other evidence there was an AC line,
voltage problem?

I do have a Tripp Lite protector that is still functioning but I have lost
confidence in it and I need a replacement.

Tripp Lite makes some fairly good protectors in their upper
end products, I'd resist replacing it unless you know for
sure it's bad. I'm wondering about your PSU, as the PSU
itself should have shut off if it were outputting
excessively high voltage. What make and model PSU was this?

I looked through the Consumer
Reports (CR) web site but it seems they have not done any rating of surge
strips recently. I don't know of any other independent organizations that do
these tests. CR does some good articles on computer protection otherwise.

Recommendations and comments appreciated.

If you decide to replace the Tripp Lite, you might get
another one. Either I'm misunderstanding what you have
written above or it doesn't seem to me that (we) know yet
that there was an AC line problem or that the surge
protector needs replaced. A bad PSU outputting excessively
high voltage can kill a motherboard without any kind of AC
line problems being present.

 

[kony]

I recommend you get a small APC UPS instead of just a surge protector. You can
get the 350-500 VA models for not much more than you'd pay for a good surge
protector, or you can get a 1300-1500 VA model that will protect from spikes,
surges, and brownouts for $150 or less (<$100 if you find a good closeout or
sale).

The typical mid to higher quality Tripp Lite protectors have
better protection than a low-end (generalizing by the
slightly higher cost comment) APC 500VA UPS does. The
better APC UPS would often be spec'd with line conditioning,
"AVR".

 

[Frank McCoy]

Thank you John and Shelly.

I had another suggestion that I am also considering - a constant voltage
transformer, which costs a bit more but I think it would be better
protection. Still chewing on it

I've got a Topaz Super-Isolation transformer on both my computer (and
all associated peripherals) and an extra one I gave the kid.

Big, honking big, hot, and VERY heavy.

But a CVT is about the ultimate protection from voltage spikes.

However, they're a bit pricey.

I live in a lightning-prone area; and without the big transformers I
probably would have replaced a lot of stuff here. However, the going
price for a USED one is about $450-$600. I don't know what a new one or
system would cost.

I got mine *cheap* at a factory-garage-sale to employees only.
Nobody else there knew what a bargain they were.

A CVT will even provide some ride-through on voltage dropouts; but not
much. For that you want a UPS.

If you're rich, Topaz supplies whole systems that do both and all.
Pricey though ... VERY pricey.

 

[kony]

I was so worried that I shut it down when I saw the word surge. I tried to
view the file, that did the monitoring, in this old computer to see what the
usual messages are. It would not load, so I will have to boot the Intel to
find that info. You could be right that I may have shut down too quickly but
remember that I have been researching and ordering for about 2 weeks now. I
didn't want all that work zapped in a few seconds, so I was just playing
safe. PC P&C gives out very little info with their products - just how to
install. There are some specs available - an extract is shown below. It has
regulation of 3% or 5% but I don't know how much variation in the electric
service those figures would represent. For example, would they still be
valid for a 20v drop or rise?

Yes, it should either stay in regulation over this range, or
if the range was worse it should shut off.

The puzzling part is that you report this as an "intel"
originated, which would mean it is not a reading of the AC
line at all, only the motherboard sensors of the PSU output.
PSU output does not float along with AC line voltage, it is
regulated at several dozen KHz per second to compensate for
even the 60Hz sine wave of the AC power, which is obviously
varying by more than 20V continually.

In the present old box, I had a small drive go belly up two days ago. It may
have been age and I did think of the possibility of a surge, but is it
likely that the 5V DC connections could suffer much from a surge? The PSU
was an Enlight. However, it added to my doubts about the Tripp Lite.

I would sooner suspect the Enlight had a capacitor failure.
An AC surge of only moderate magnitude, mild enough that
system stayed running and other equipment had no damage,
should not have fryed parts connected only to the PSU.

That's good news. The PSU is a PC P&C Silencer 610 EPS12V.

ULTRA-QUIET PSU: SILENCER® 610 EPS12V
a.. 610W Continuous @ 40C (670W Peak)
b.. Up to 90% (10dB) Less Noise per Watt
c.. EPS12V / NVIDIA® SLIT Certified
d.. High Efficiency (83%); .99 Active PFC
e.. +12VDC @ 49A (Large Single Rail)
f.. 24-pin, 8-pin, 4-pin M/B Connectors
g.. 2 PCI-E and 15 Drive Connectors
h.. Automatic Fan Speed Control Circuit
i.. Black Finish (Copper on request)
j.. 3-Year Warranty and Tech Support
PS, It's not even quiet - it's noisy. It may be quiet as 600W PSUs go.
The specs are at: http://www.pcpower.com/products/assets/S61EPS/specs.pdf
Regulation: 3% (+3.3V, +5V, +12V) ; 5% (-12V) : Ripple: 1% (p-p) : Hold
Time: 16ms : PG Delay: 300ms
My question here is, would these numbers still be good if there was a
significant electric power surge? If so, I see no reason not to go back to
the new box.

Define significant.
We all use PSU, and the majority of computer users don't
have anything more than a cheap $10 surge strip, yet their
computer works fine. That doesn't resolve any problems
unique to your location though, but we have not yet isolated
this as being an AC power surge and based on your info so
far, there is no reason to expect it was an AC surge. An AC
power surge bears no direct relation to a motherboard
software report of a voltage out of spec.

 

[John Doe]

Tripp Lite makes some fairly good protectors in their upper end
products, I'd resist replacing it unless you know for sure it's bad.

Apparently the indicator doesn't accurately tell you the surge
suppressor is OK since a destroyed MOV looks the same as as a
functional MOV. Apparently they do wear out much faster than ordinary
electronics. So, if the surge suppressor is older than X number of
years, then it could easily be bad. I guess that number is three or
four.

 

[kony]

Thanks again Kony for all your wise comments.

Seems like I need to return to kindergarten to get refreshed on the basics.
Of course, single phase jogs up and down, while the 3 phase just ripples.
You have given me enough confidence to switch on the upgraded computer and
watch for that Intel warning message. Will let you know what happens,
assuming of course that the box doesn't catch fire and I get barbecued ;-)

If the PSU is outputting an excessively high voltage, if
that is damaging the components, the PSU is malfunctioning
and should not be trusted yet. The safest thing to do would
be connect it to a non-valuable load causing roughly similar
current, and measure the voltages. This load could be some
old system (providing it has the same current per rail tax
on the PSU) or a bank of resistors, etc.

 

[kony]

Apparently the indicator doesn't accurately tell you the surge
suppressor is OK since a destroyed MOV looks the same as as a
functional MOV. Apparently they do wear out much faster than ordinary
electronics. So, if the surge suppressor is older than X number of
years, then it could easily be bad. I guess that number is three or
four.

When does a destroyed MOV look the same? All those I've
seen failed fractured. While an indicator may not reveal
some problems, a visual inspection might rule some things
out. Whether the parts fail much faster (within the
required service life of the UPS) has a lot to do with how
many surges, and the magnitude.

On the other hand, it is true that the safest route is to
periodically replace a surge protector every few years,
especially if one is not inclined to open and inspect or
test it.

Besides all this, the main thing to remember is that a
motherboard voltage report is not a measure or indication of
any AC line problems. The PSU itself is regulated and in
any case of over or undervoltage on the important main rails
(not the unloaded ones such as -5V or -12V) it should shut
down regardless of what the AC line is doing, and being a
switching PSU it should have good tolerance of AC line
variations until the point where excessive voltage damages
the switching transistors, at which point it becomes
inoperable, not continuing to run but outputting too high a
DC voltage (at least not for more than a few ms, which is a
shorter period than would be necessary for the OP to notice
the condition reported by the software monitor application).

 

[John Doe]

When does a destroyed MOV look the same?

When the indicator looks at it. Is that not proper English where
you're from?

All those I've seen failed fractured.

Even if they all fracture when failed, the indicator couldn't see
that.

While an indicator may not reveal some problems,

Maybe I should've asked you instead of the electronics design group.
Does the indicator accurately measure whether a surge suppressor is
still functioning properly?

If OPEN is the condition when a move fails, then the indicator won't
look any different since OPEN is how it looks when the MOV is
functioning perfectly.

a visual inspection might rule some things out.

I was talking about the indicator and how we tell whether a surge
suppressor is working or not.

Whether the parts fail much faster (within the
required service life of the UPS)

Required service life of the UPS? I was comparing a MOV's life to most
electronics that typically last much longer than a few years in normal
operation. The MOVs in a UPS are designed to take abuse and they wear
out much faster than ordinary electronics.

has a lot to do with how many surges, and the magnitude.

Of course it does, but that's useless for telling whether the surge
suppressor is still working properly.

 

[kony]

When the indicator looks at it. Is that not proper English where
you're from?

My point was that you can eyeball it and tell. Any decent
surge protector can be opened (at least any that I've seen,
weren't permanently sealed).

Maybe I should've asked you instead of the electronics design group.
Does the indicator accurately measure whether a surge suppressor is
still functioning properly?

No, it is not a reliable method of determining that the unit
is 100% operational.

I was talking about the indicator and how we tell whether a surge
suppressor is working or not.

Ok, but I wasn't.

Required service life of the UPS? I was comparing a MOV's life to most
electronics that typically last much longer than a few years in normal
operation. The MOVs in a UPS are designed to take abuse and they wear
out much faster than ordinary electronics.

Yes, the required service life of the UPS. Yes an MOV's
life may be significantly shorter than many parts. That
doesn't mean we can automatically assume they're failed when
there is no indication of it (including no evidence of any
surge damage to the UPS or the computer).

Of course it does, but that's useless for telling whether the surge
suppressor is still working properly.

By your logic we can't ever know if even a brand new surge
protector is working properly... or if it failed 3 months,
or even a mere 2 weeks later. We can't all be replacing
surge protectors every 2 weeks, so if you don't want to
trust the indicator just open it up and inspect it if you
like.

 

[John Doe]

On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 21:24:08 GMT, John Doe


No, it is not a reliable method of determining that the unit
is 100% operational.

Do you really have any idea how reliable it is or even what the status
good indicator measures?

 

[kony]

Do you really have any idea how reliable it is or even what the status
good indicator measures?

It is as reliable as the design allows, which is
insufficient for good surge protection if we really want to
delve into this in detail, but that (fixating on surge
protectors) would be silly because:

There is no reason to believe there is any problem with the
OP's surge protector. A Windows software monitor warning of
excessive voltage is not correspondant to a surge protector
failure or a high AC main line problem!

 

[John Doe]

It is as reliable as the design allows,

So it's reliable as it is reliable.

which is insufficient for good surge protection if we really want to
delve into this in detail,

So we are in agreement that the protection-good indicator is useless.

There is no reason to believe there is any problem with the OP's
surge protector.

If it's over four years old, replacing it probably is a good idea
regardless of whether it's causing the current problem.

 

[Red]

So it's reliable as it is reliable.


So we are in agreement that the protection-good indicator is useless.


If it's over four years old, replacing it probably is a good idea
regardless of whether it's causing the current problem.

Hi again Everyone,

I have the computer running again and it is connected to the Tripp Lite
(TL).

First, the TL is 7 years old and, according to the manual (actually a small
leaflet) it is "guaranted for the life of the product." The manual further
states, that if it allows equipment downstream to be damaged, TL will pay
the cost of repairs or replacement. Originally, there was a 3 year warranty,
though I am not sure how that is related to the "life of the product."

Here are a few specs for it:
Surge energy absorption in Joules 2,100
Surge current (NM/CM) 42.5/54.5 k.a.
Let through voltage < 35 volts
UL 1449 330 volts
Response time (normal mode) <1 ns.
EMI/RFI line noise filtering >80 dB @ 1MHz.

All that info convinced me that it was ok. I actually tried to inspect the
circuit board but couldn't. Only the back side was visible - just lumps of
solder. It was attached with what looked like a block of plastic that
extended from the board up to the top of the unit where the Off / Reset
button was. I removed all the other screws but I could not see how to pull
that circuit board up. On the top of the unit, there are three tiny lights,
two green and one red. According to the manual, only if there is a problem
in the circuit will the green go off and the red come on. I have never seen
anything except green lights.

Then I started up the computer again and looked for info about the alert
that had me anxiously shutting it down. In this monitoring program, there
are numerous pictures of meters showing the current temperature, voltage
etc. in the 12v, 5v and 3.3 circuits and also in the CPU core and I/O. The
core typically has about 1.5v and there are red bands on the "meters" lower
than 0.8 and higher than 2.3 The I/O is also typically about 1.5v and has
red bands below 0.6 and above 2.3. The wierd thing is that the message that
popped up and mentioned overvoltage had the following log extract:

"08/22/07 22:53:18
A voltage (CPU I/O (+1.5 V)) has gone outside of its recommended range.

08/22/07 22:53:32

A voltage (CPU Core (+1.52 V)) has gone outside of its recommended range."

So the recommended range seems to be very tight and the middle of the cpu
core "meter" is at 1.5v.

In any case guys, I will not panic next time.

My thanks to all for your great support.

Have a great week

RF

 

[John Doe]

....

I have the computer running again and it is connected to the Tripp
Lite (TL). First, the TL is 7 years old and, according to the
manual (actually a small leaflet) it is "guaranted for the life of
the product." The manual further states, that if it allows
equipment downstream to be damaged, TL will pay the cost of
repairs or replacement. Originally, there was a 3 year warranty,
though I am not sure how that is related to the "life of the
product."

Are you suggesting that MOVs don't wear out or that surge
suppressors don't need to be periodically replaced?

"A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest...
la la la"