Raw files from scanners. How to?

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Linus

Hello everybody,
my question is about getting RAW format files from scanners.
Is this possible? If so, is it a matter of hardware or scanning software?
In other words, is RAW format obtainable from any scanner (given the right
scanning software) or, rather, it has to be implemented via hardware?
Which software/hardware do offer this possiblity, especially between
dedicated film scanners?


Thanks anybody for helping.


Linus
 
Linus said:
Hello everybody,
my question is about getting RAW format files from scanners.
Is this possible? If so, is it a matter of hardware or scanning
software?

It usually just requires an appropriate scanner driver (software).

SNIP
Which software/hardware do offer this possiblity, especially between
dedicated film scanners?

Depending on the scanner-model and operating system, there are a few
programs like "Silverfast" and "VueScan" that can extract Raw or
linear gamma data.

Bart
 
Hello everybody,
my question is about getting RAW format files from scanners.
Is this possible? If so, is it a matter of hardware or scanning software?
In other words, is RAW format obtainable from any scanner (given the right
scanning software) or, rather, it has to be implemented via hardware?
Which software/hardware do offer this possiblity, especially between
dedicated film scanners?

It really depends on what you mean by "raw".

Strictly speaking, a raw scan would be data directly from the CCD
array (the actual sensors). In most cases, you will never get this
because at the lowest level the scanner firmware will "mess with it"
to some degree before it even considers what you ask it to do. This is
beyond user control.

In everyday use, however, a raw scan refers to a scan which has been
"messed with" the least at the higher level i.e., you disable things
over which you do have control. You can get this from any scanner
software by simply disabling all of the features (disable anything
"auto", set gamma to 1.0, disable any image enhancing such as Nikon's
ICE, DEE and friends, basically turn everything off...).

In practical terms, you may actually want some of those features -
depending on your requirements. For example, unless you edit your
images in so-called "linear space" (which is unlikely) there is very
little point in setting gamma to 1.0. Furthermore, some image
enhancements, such as Nikon's ICE or various hardware-based grain
reductions are or may be actually useful.

So, the question should really be turned around: What is it you are
actually after? And that's a bit of a Catch 22 because you need to
know more about the whole process in order to answer it.

Don, a card-carrying member of the "raw scan sect"... ;o)
 
Thanks for your replies.
It seems I need some more in-deep knowledge about scannig tecnologies :-)
All in all, with RAW I meant something equivalent to what RAW format is for
digital cameras.
So, something which is still a near representation of what the CCD "sees" .
I know that RAW files from digital cameras receive some low-level processing
before being output in the shape of RAW files. In other words, I am after a
file format whose aquisition parameters can still be manipulated.

Linus

P.S: I am from Italy so I understand that "catch 22" is a way of saying
(probably related with baseball, or cricket maybe), but I don't get its
meaning :-)
 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Linus" <>
Newsgroups: comp.periphs.scanners
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: Raw files from scanners. How to?

Thanks for your replies.
It seems I need some more in-deep knowledge about scannig tecnologies :-)
All in all, with RAW I meant something equivalent to what RAW format is
for
digital cameras.
So, something which is still a near representation of what the CCD "sees"
.
I know that RAW files from digital cameras receive some low-level
processing
before being output in the shape of RAW files. In other words, I am after
a
file format whose aquisition parameters can still be manipulated.

Linus

P.S: I am from Italy so I understand that "catch 22" is a way of saying
(probably related with baseball, or cricket maybe), but I don't get its
meaning :-)

Catch-22 sort of has the meaning of being stuck in the middle with no clear
path of preference.
Another interpretation might be, "your damned if you do and damned if you
don't."
 
Linus said:
Thanks for your replies.
It seems I need some more in-deep knowledge about scannig tecnologies :-)
All in all, with RAW I meant something equivalent to what RAW format is for
digital cameras.
So, something which is still a near representation of what the CCD "sees" .
I know that RAW files from digital cameras receive some low-level processing
before being output in the shape of RAW files. In other words, I am after a
file format whose aquisition parameters can still be manipulated.

Linus

P.S: I am from Italy so I understand that "catch 22" is a way of saying
(probably related with baseball, or cricket maybe), but I don't get its
meaning :-)

Here is the description of saving raw file from Vuescan:

http://www.hamrick.com/vuescan/html/vuesc1.htm#topic0
Using Raw Scan Files

One of the most powerful features of VueScan is that you can save
the raw scan data in a file (using "Output|Raw file") when scanning.
These raw scan files can then be reprocessed later without needing to
re-scan the actual media again. You shouldn't ever need to scan the
same physical image twice.

The raw scan files are raw data straight from the CCD in the scanner,
without any sort of color processing or modification. None of the
options in the Filter or Color tabs affect the raw scan files in any
way (except that when "Output|Raw output with" is set to "Save",
the raw file has had rotation, mirroring, infrared cleaning and grain
reduction applied).

You only need to save raw scan files if you foresee a need to reprocess
the image in a later session. In any case, VueScan always keeps the
raw data from the most recent scan in memory, so you can always
reprocess it without needing to rescan the image. The only time you'll
need to rescan the image is if you want to change the cropping,
scan at a higher resolution, or if you want to manually change the
exposure or focus.


http://www.hamrick.com/vuescan/html/vuesc22.htm#topic21
Raw file (Professional Edition only)
This enables writing raw data from the scanner to a TIFF file.

The raw files are the result of the first of two steps VueScan performs:
"scanning". The second step is "processing". These steps are described in
the topic "How VueScan Works" in this User's Guide. By providing a
mechanism to cleanly separate these two steps, VueScan provides great
flexibility and options not available in most scanner software.

You can perform the "processing" step later by setting "Input|Source" to
"File". This lets you rescan images with different settings, without needing
to physically rescan the media.

When the raw file is written depends on the setting of "Output|Raw output with".

Raw files are always stored as TIFF files and can therefore be examined in
image viewing and editing programs. Note, however that the resolution of
raw files (as specified in "Output|Raw file type") may be greater than some
programs can read.

Little processing is done on raw files so they are a close representation of
exactly what the scanner has produced. Raw files will not be filtered nor
will color settings be applied. As a result, raw scans may look "wrong".

Raw files are good for archiving as they contain as much data as the
scanner was able to produce without any operations that modify the
scanner data.

The image gamma value is 1.0 when there are two bytes (16-bits) per
sample, and 2.2 when there is one byte (8-bits) per sample. Raw files
saved with gamma 1.0 will look dark, but this is normal.

The one exception to this is if "Output|Raw output with" is set to
"Save" - in this case, the infrared cleaning and grain reduction is also
done before saving the raw scan files.


Catch 22: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch-22
 
Linus said:
Thanks for your replies.
It seems I need some more in-deep knowledge about scannig tecnologies :-)
All in all, with RAW I meant something equivalent to what RAW format is for
digital cameras.
So, something which is still a near representation of what the CCD "sees" .
I know that RAW files from digital cameras receive some low-level processing
before being output in the shape of RAW files. In other words, I am after a
file format whose aquisition parameters can still be manipulated.

Linus

P.S: I am from Italy so I understand that "catch 22" is a way of saying
(probably related with baseball, or cricket maybe), but I don't get its
meaning :-)

The raw scanning technique is seldom, if ever, covered by the numerous
scanning books and tutorials. Perhaps the authors don't want to get down
to separating what is being done by a scanner's hardware and software.
Once you get over that, you can understand what a raw scan is, and why
some prefer it. Don's explanation is right on.

Here are some references on the topic:

Real World Scanning and Halftones (3rd Edition)
by David Blatner (Author), Glenn Fleishman (Author), Steve Roth
(Author), Conrad Chavez (Author)
Paperback: 352 pages ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.66 x 9.16 x 7.36
Publisher: Peachpit Press; 3rd edition (April 8, 2004)
ISBN: 0321241320
I found that this is the only book that separates a scanner's hw and sw
in some details.

http://www.naturephotographers.net/mh0202-1.pdf (See "Input Method 2:
Manage Color After the Scan")
This author explains why he prefers raw scans, and cautions that
practitioners should be able to stand ugly looking scans, and then be
able to edit them in PS.

http://www.lumika.org/gear_nikon_scan_vs_photoshop.htm
This author ran a simple test. He concluded that tutorials like Scantips
to be incorrect and even recorded Ed Hamrick in agreement.
 
Thanks for your replies.
It seems I need some more in-deep knowledge about scannig tecnologies :-)
All in all, with RAW I meant something equivalent to what RAW format is for
digital cameras.
So, something which is still a near representation of what the CCD "sees" .
I know that RAW files from digital cameras receive some low-level processing
before being output in the shape of RAW files. In other words, I am after a
file format whose aquisition parameters can still be manipulated.

In that case just turn off everything in your scanner software as I
suggested and set gamma to 1.0. Also, use the highest bit rate the
scanner provides. That should give you the maximum you can get out of
the scanner with minimal "interference" from the scanner software i.e.
you'll get a raw scan.
P.S: I am from Italy so I understand that "catch 22" is a way of saying
(probably related with baseball, or cricket maybe), but I don't get its
meaning :-)

Catch 22 is basically a vicious circle. Something like: In order to
get a passport you need a birth certificate. But when you go to get a
birth certificate they want you to identify yourself with a passport
first... Bureaucrats love Catch 22. ;o)
 
Here are some references on the topic:

Real World Scanning and Halftones (3rd Edition)
by David Blatner (Author), Glenn Fleishman (Author), Steve Roth
(Author), Conrad Chavez (Author)
Paperback: 352 pages ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.66 x 9.16 x 7.36
Publisher: Peachpit Press; 3rd edition (April 8, 2004)
ISBN: 0321241320
I found that this is the only book that separates a scanner's hw and sw
in some details.

http://www.naturephotographers.net/mh0202-1.pdf (See "Input Method 2:
Manage Color After the Scan")
This author explains why he prefers raw scans, and cautions that
practitioners should be able to stand ugly looking scans, and then be
able to edit them in PS.

http://www.lumika.org/gear_nikon_scan_vs_photoshop.htm
This author ran a simple test. He concluded that tutorials like Scantips
to be incorrect and even recorded Ed Hamrick in agreement.

Excellent references, David!! This message is a keeper!

Don.
 
Catch 22 is basically a vicious circle. Something like: In order to
get a passport you need a birth certificate. But when you go to get a
birth certificate they want you to identify yourself with a passport
first... Bureaucrats love Catch 22. ;o)

You might have referred also to the book and film which are the origin(?) of the
phrase.....

DS
 
In that case just turn off everything in your scanner software as I
suggested and set gamma to 1.0. Also, use the highest bit rate the
scanner provides. That should give you the maximum you can get out of
the scanner with minimal "interference" from the scanner software i.e.
you'll get a raw scan.


Catch 22 is basically a vicious circle. Something like: In order to
get a passport you need a birth certificate. But when you go to get a
birth certificate they want you to identify yourself with a passport
first... Bureaucrats love Catch 22. ;o)


With the Minolta software, the 16bit linear output seems to be a "raw
file". Works for me as a Vuescan raw file.
 
You might have referred also to the book and film which are the origin(?) of the
phrase.....

I also believe that was the origin of the phrase. The book was by
Joseph Heller, if memory serves.

It's about US soldiers trying to get out of Vietnam. One way was to be
declared insane. But to be declared insane they have to request a
dismissal on those grounds. However, if they do request it that proves
they are not insane.

Don.
 
D> On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:21:42 +1100, David Springthorpe

D> I also believe that was the origin of the phrase. The book was by
D> Joseph Heller, if memory serves.

D> It's about US soldiers trying to get out of Vietnam. One way was to be
D> declared insane. But to be declared insane they have to request a
D> dismissal on those grounds. However, if they do request it that proves
D> they are not insane.

D> Don.

Actually, it was *Italy* during WW2.
 
D> It's about US soldiers trying to get out of Vietnam. One way was to be
D> declared insane. But to be declared insane they have to request a
D> dismissal on those grounds. However, if they do request it that proves
D> they are not insane.

D> Don.

Actually, it was *Italy* during WW2.

That makes the phrase even more appropriate because Linus is from
Italy! Serendipity!

I must have confused Catch 22 it with another book "Going after
Cachato (sp?)" which I'm sure is about Vietnam! Well, maybe... ;o)

Don.
 
Thanks everybody for helping... especially about the "catch-22" question :-)

You really gave me plenty of details and sources for in-deep learning.

Linus
 
I am using Vuescan to save RAW scans (in 48 bit TIFF format) from my
scanner. Then I open the file with either Photoshop CS or Picture
Windows Pro 3.5, and attach to the image a color profile that came
canned with my scanner. It is a profile with linear gamma. You can see
the list of supported scanners on Vuescan web site.

Good luck,
Fanta
 
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