Rambus files anti-trust suit against memory makers

  • Thread starter Thread starter Robert Myers
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Robert Myers

By way of retaliating for all the geopolitics, I feel the compulsion to
start another Rambus thread:

http://www.forbes.com/newswire/2004/05/05/rtr1360190.html

<quote>

Computer memory designer Rambus Inc. (nasdaq: RMBS - news - people) on
Wednesday filed an anti-trust lawsuit in California court against some
of the world's top computer memory makers, alleging they "engaged in a
concerted and unlawful effort" to control the computer memory market.

</quote>

People who live in glass houses...

RM
 
By way of retaliating for all the geopolitics, I feel the compulsion to
start another Rambus thread:

Oh Ge-e-e-e-ez Robert, now we'll have Sim Tullivan in here again!:-) Plus
RMBS has been doing its yo-yo acts on the "market".... AGAIN!
http://www.forbes.com/newswire/2004/05/05/rtr1360190.html

<quote>

Computer memory designer Rambus Inc. (nasdaq: RMBS - news - people) on
Wednesday filed an anti-trust lawsuit in California court against some
of the world's top computer memory makers, alleging they "engaged in a
concerted and unlawful effort" to control the computer memory market.

First, calling Rambus a "computer memory designer" is umm, charitable to
say the least but anyway... a coupla things I don't get here and I'd
appreciate an alternative view:

1) During the period Rambus is talking about, memory prices had been in the
toilet for months and everybody was losing money hand over fist on PC
DIMMs. Why would it be illegal to cut back on production if the market was
so saturated with product that it was selling at below cost?

2) Rambus came along and said to all the memory mfrs: "Hey guys we've got a
great new idea for a standard for memory interfacing". The memory mfrs
said: "We've talked it out among us and we don't like your "great new idea"
- bugger off!... or go make it yourself: pay the patent license fees for
all the other tech involved, do the complete design, fund a fab or
outsource to a foundry and do the marketing yourselves." Is there
something illegal here?

Seems like Rambus wanted to bilk the memory mfrs as a group but they didn't
want them deciding, as a group, that they didn't want to be bilked. Should
take all of 5mins to settle this but...

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
 
George said:
Oh Ge-e-e-e-ez Robert, now we'll have Sim Tullivan in here again!:-)

I guess we'll find out if he follows the group or just trolls. ;-).
Plus
RMBS has been doing its yo-yo acts on the "market".... AGAIN!

Well, then, I guess a visit is overdue, anyway.
First, calling Rambus a "computer memory designer" is umm, charitable to
say the least but anyway... a coupla things I don't get here and I'd
appreciate an alternative view:

1) During the period Rambus is talking about, memory prices had been in the
toilet for months and everybody was losing money hand over fist on PC
DIMMs. Why would it be illegal to cut back on production if the market was
so saturated with product that it was selling at below cost?

It's not illegal to cut back production, but I don't think the fact that
you have been selling below cost makes a cartel legal. You can cut
back, and you can announce you're cutting back, but you can't say to
other memory manufacturers, "I'll cut back if you do," and cut back
pursuant to such an agreement. Whether the memory manufacturs actually
did anything illegal would be for people who dress much better than I do
to argue and for the courts to decide. :-).
2) Rambus came along and said to all the memory mfrs: "Hey guys we've got a
great new idea for a standard for memory interfacing". The memory mfrs
said: "We've talked it out among us and we don't like your "great new idea"
- bugger off!... or go make it yourself: pay the patent license fees for
all the other tech involved, do the complete design, fund a fab or
outsource to a foundry and do the marketing yourselves." Is there
something illegal here?

On the face of it, it would seem so. Nothing in anti-trust law to stop
a memory manufacturer from saying publicly that they think the Rambus
thing is a lousy idea, but that might create a cause of action in
itself, as a matter of tort, not anti-trust, law. A manufacturer can
annnounce publicly that they have no intention of purchasing a Rambus
license or manufacturing the kind of memory that requires that license,
and I wouldn't think that would be a cause of action. What seems like
it should be illegal is for manufacturers to get together to agree that
they're going to shut somebody out, which is what I gather is being
alleged.
Seems like Rambus wanted to bilk the memory mfrs as a group but they didn't
want them deciding, as a group, that they didn't want to be bilked. Should
take all of 5mins to settle this but...

I think I've probably made it clear that I would have liked to have seen
RDRAM go or stay on the technical merits alone.

Beyond that, I wouldn't know how to judge. The Rambus principals seem
to have had a particular knack for making enemies. Even if the memory
manufacturers justifiably felt provoked to the point of rage by Rambus
tactics, they have only themselves to blame if they got caught
responding ham-handedly.

RM
 
I guess we'll find out if he follows the group or just trolls. ;-).


Well, then, I guess a visit is overdue, anyway.


It's not illegal to cut back production, but I don't think the fact that
you have been selling below cost makes a cartel legal. You can cut
back, and you can announce you're cutting back, but you can't say to
other memory manufacturers, "I'll cut back if you do," and cut back
pursuant to such an agreement. Whether the memory manufacturs actually
did anything illegal would be for people who dress much better than I do
to argue and for the courts to decide. :-).

Well some guy who worked for Micron in a field office got pilloried because
he'd had some docs showing competitors' pricing which he tried to "alter".
Now if he got caught for altering, that's one thing but I don't see what's
wrong with knowing competitors' pricing - that's how business operates: by
figuring if you can undercut and still make a profit, or offer a better
product for equivalent price. It seemed to me that the punishment was
disproportionate anyway - ISTR substantial prison time and of course loss
of employment.

The way I see it, the memory mfrs were close to bankruptcy back about that
time - one of them, Hyundai, did fail and had to get (quasi-legal) govt.
support and reform as a new company. If your company is making a net loss
on every item made, it makes sense to sell less items - responsibility to
share holders demands it - and then hope... What actually passed between
responsible members of the memory mfrs companies is hard to fathom but
there's a difference between profiteering and struggling for survival.
It's certainly hard to make a case that memory chips and modules has ever
been overpriced in the past 8years or so.
On the face of it, it would seem so. Nothing in anti-trust law to stop
a memory manufacturer from saying publicly that they think the Rambus
thing is a lousy idea, but that might create a cause of action in
itself, as a matter of tort, not anti-trust, law. A manufacturer can
annnounce publicly that they have no intention of purchasing a Rambus
license or manufacturing the kind of memory that requires that license,
and I wouldn't think that would be a cause of action. What seems like
it should be illegal is for manufacturers to get together to agree that
they're going to shut somebody out, which is what I gather is being
alleged.

Rambus was never in as a mfr in the first place - nobody to shut out but an
ambitious interloper. In any industry, if you, as a nobody in that
industry, have a new widget you want to sell, you try to form bona fide
alliances with the big guys, play nice according to their rules... or go it
alone. Since they couldn't get funding to go it alone - hard one that -
they had to play nice, instead of which they acted like some courtesan
selling favors... playing the mfrs against each other. There are a couple
of companies who took the license and still make the product for a niche
market; AFAIK the others took the initial license but did not make
commercial product - hard to know if Micron actually made prototype but I
think so - they listed it on their Web site at one point.
I think I've probably made it clear that I would have liked to have seen
RDRAM go or stay on the technical merits alone.

In the end it mostly did... fail on its lack of merit. There was a very
small minority of computer tasks which benefited from DRDRAM and even then
with a processor which Intel designed specifically to work in tandem with
it. The stuff needed dual channel to work close to competitively - the
i820 was a disaster and dual channel was no mean feat back then for a PC -
and the standard was up for a further change - 32d to 4i pages - which
would have required further new chipset logic. Then came the dual channel
modules which needed new mbrds. The "standard" was not really very well
formed.
Beyond that, I wouldn't know how to judge. The Rambus principals seem
to have had a particular knack for making enemies. Even if the memory
manufacturers justifiably felt provoked to the point of rage by Rambus
tactics, they have only themselves to blame if they got caught
responding ham-handedly.

It's going to be difficult to separate industry inter-company gossip from
official corporate policy here - e-mail tends to be a more chatty medium
than letterhead so I'm not sure how that impacts the import of what was
actually communicated. On the strength of what they really had, the
principals at Rambus were handsomely rewarded... according to insider
trading records I've seen. I don't see that they have any complaint at
all.

This latest action could make an enemy of the one real industry ally Rambus
ever had. I don't see how Intel can avoid getting dragged in here to give
evidence on how they hoped to make out with the warrants scheme... and
hijack the PC standard form factor. If Intel had not decided to own the
PC, Rambus would have been a minor player in the console memory business
who would have most likely been absorbed into Samsung or some other major
player. Oh geez I hope they're not working the shredder overtime at Intel
about now.:-)

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
 
Well some guy who worked for Micron in a field office got pilloried because
he'd had some docs showing competitors' pricing which he tried to "alter".
Now if he got caught for altering, that's one thing but I don't see what's
wrong with knowing competitors' pricing - that's how business operates: by
figuring if you can undercut and still make a profit, or offer a better
product for equivalent price.

Businesses are secretive about pricing for good reason: you have more
control in the never-ending struggle to maintain both margin and volume
that way. If a buyer comes along and will pay list price, that's good
for margin. If a buyer comes along and there is no way you're going to
make more than a sliver of margin on the deal, you take the business
anyway--unless your other customers might find out.

You might take the deal even if you are nominally losing money on it, as
long as the money you get is greater than the variable cost attributable
to doing that business. That's just talking about an industry that's
relatively healthy, where people aren't selling at an absolute loss just
to maintain market share. It's a mean world out there.

As silly as it sounds, surreptitiously sharing information with
competitors--but not customers--about the price at which you are
_really_ selling goods is anti-competitive and should be illegal.
It seemed to me that the punishment was
disproportionate anyway - ISTR substantial prison time and of course loss
of employment.

I've seen some big-time shenanigans. It never seems to fail that the
one that gets punished most severely is some marginal player. The
systematic reason that I can identify for that irony is that the
marginal players never have anything of value to trade in making a plea
bargain, so our prisons fill up with nobodies. When they _do_ catch a
somebody with nothing to trade, like Martha Stewart, they do seem to try
to make a day of it.
The way I see it, the memory mfrs were close to bankruptcy back about that
time - one of them, Hyundai, did fail and had to get (quasi-legal) govt.
support and reform as a new company. If your company is making a net loss
on every item made, it makes sense to sell less items - responsibility to
share holders demands it - and then hope...

I think you believe that memory manufacturers were selling at an
absolute loss, but manufacturers have even less incentive to be candid
about their costs than they do to be candid about their prices, so I
would take any self-descriptions of the situation with some skepticism.
What actually passed between
responsible members of the memory mfrs companies is hard to fathom but
there's a difference between profiteering and struggling for survival.

Bill Gates is the wealthiest man in the world and some weenie from
Micron molders in jail. What do you want me to say?
It's certainly hard to make a case that memory chips and modules has ever
been overpriced in the past 8years or so.

If I told you the extent to which I wouldn't believe anything someone
like a memory manufacturer told me, you'd probably wind up believing
that I'd spent part of my life in the Mafia. You really do seem to
expect that there should be an element of fairness in business.

I don't think everyone is a crook, that all businesses or businessmen
are dishonest, or that there aren't significant numbers of people to
whom honesty and fairness aren't important. I, um, wouldn't take it for
granted that a big player in a commodity manufacturing industry would
always fall into that last category.

In any industry, if you, as a nobody in that
industry, have a new widget you want to sell, you try to form bona fide
alliances with the big guys, play nice according to their rules... or go it
alone. Since they couldn't get funding to go it alone - hard one that -
they had to play nice,

Apparently, no one told the Rambus principals. ;-). Bill Gates and
Steve Ballmer play nice?
instead of which they acted like some courtesan
selling favors... playing the mfrs against each other.

Stop it, George. You will give courtesans a bad name!

In the end it mostly did... fail on its lack of merit.

Dead issue to me, really. What's done is done.

It's going to be difficult to separate industry inter-company gossip from
official corporate policy here - e-mail tends to be a more chatty medium
than letterhead so I'm not sure how that impacts the import of what was
actually communicated.

It's odd that in order to have free markets, behavior that might seem
relatively innocent has to be scrutinized so harshly, but that's the way
it is. There is no such thing as innocent gossip in a case like this.
On the strength of what they really had, the
principals at Rambus were handsomely rewarded... according to insider
trading records I've seen. I don't see that they have any complaint at
all.

This latest action could make an enemy of the one real industry ally Rambus
ever had.

Intel is a hard read.
I don't see how Intel can avoid getting dragged in here to give
evidence on how they hoped to make out with the warrants scheme... and
hijack the PC standard form factor. If Intel had not decided to own the
PC, Rambus would have been a minor player in the console memory business
who would have most likely been absorbed into Samsung or some other major
player. Oh geez I hope they're not working the shredder overtime at Intel
about now.:-)

You will never cease to amaze me. You are now concerned for the
well-being of people who work for Intel? What an idealist. ;-).

RM
 
Robert said:
The
systematic reason that I can identify for that irony is that the
marginal players never have anything of value to trade in making a plea
bargain, so our prisons fill up with nobodies. When they _do_ catch a
somebody with nothing to trade, like Martha Stewart, they do seem to try
to make a day of it.

Yep Ken and the boys at Enron probably will never see the inside of a
courtroom yet Martha will go to jail because she's well known and like you
said don't have "enough to trade".


I don't think everyone is a crook, that all businesses or businessmen
are dishonest, or that there aren't significant numbers of people to
whom honesty and fairness aren't important. I, um, wouldn't take it for
granted that a big player in a commodity manufacturing industry would
always fall into that last category.

Exactly, when I see someone with TOO much money, I know they can't be
-honest- and end up with that big a piece of the pie.
 
Yep Ken and the boys at Enron probably will never see the inside of a
courtroom yet Martha will go to jail because she's well known and like you
said don't have "enough to trade".
No, Martha was simply stupid. She's going to do "stoopid time".
I think Ken's going to get his, though he is smart enough to shut
up. Notice that Adelphia and WorldCom (to name a few) didn't
exactly skate off into the sunset. As my hero Yogi says: "It
ain't over 'till it's over."
Exactly, when I see someone with TOO much money, I know they can't be
-honest- and end up with that big a piece of the pie.

Oh, good grief. "Money == bad." What a simpleton bunch here.
 
KR Williams wrote:

Oh, good grief. "Money == bad." What a simpleton bunch here.

Didn't say "bad" but I have to wonder how someone makes enough for a
$3,000,000 boat etc and made it "honestly". Sure some do but I doubt most
do.
 
As silly as it sounds, surreptitiously sharing information with
competitors--but not customers--about the price at which you are
_really_ selling goods is anti-competitive and should be illegal.

No doubt but proving "surreptitious" and overt "sharing" could be difficult
here from what I see. IME, most companies know the exact list price and
pricing dynamics of competitors anyway - why bother with cloak & dagger?...
and then there's the "deepthroats" among the customers.
I think you believe that memory manufacturers were selling at an
absolute loss, but manufacturers have even less incentive to be candid
about their costs than they do to be candid about their prices, so I
would take any self-descriptions of the situation with some skepticism.

Numbers were public for spot market trading in chips - they could not have
been making a profit. It showed in their profit & loss statements.
Bill Gates is the wealthiest man in the world and some weenie from
Micron molders in jail. What do you want me to say?

I fail to see the relevance between Gates and Micron. Certainly little
guys should not be persecuted while big fish escape - justice is worth
pursuing but is not always realized... but the rule book should not be
thrown away or perverted with prejudice.
If I told you the extent to which I wouldn't believe anything someone
like a memory manufacturer told me, you'd probably wind up believing
that I'd spent part of my life in the Mafia. You really do seem to
expect that there should be an element of fairness in business.

Fairness?... well kinda but any suggestion that Micron et.al. were
violating laws for profit are kinda umm, empty. As for what you "believe",
there's no need to listen to the mfr's version of the prices - it's all
public info.
I don't think everyone is a crook, that all businesses or businessmen
are dishonest, or that there aren't significant numbers of people to
whom honesty and fairness aren't important. I, um, wouldn't take it for
granted that a big player in a commodity manufacturing industry would
always fall into that last category.

The memory mfrs are publicly owned companies and have a responsibility to
act accordingly in making deals and in their corporate behavior. It's a
fine line to walk when losing money.
Apparently, no one told the Rambus principals. ;-). Bill Gates and
Steve Ballmer play nice?

Billy and the Embalmer haven't been an interloper for a long long while and
it took a while for them to gain success... often due to the ineptitude of
their umm, collaborators and the competition. Rambus' ethics and goals are
a matter of record by even the judge who upheld their appeal against
Infineon.
It's odd that in order to have free markets, behavior that might seem
relatively innocent has to be scrutinized so harshly, but that's the way
it is. There is no such thing as innocent gossip in a case like this.

When the uhh "scrutinizer" is a bandit corp. run by and for shysters, whose
principal activity is confrontational litigation, it makes a difference
though.:-)
You will never cease to amaze me. You are now concerned for the
well-being of people who work for Intel? What an idealist. ;-).

No, no that was more cynical than empathy for Intel but it would be sad for
the industry in general to have them besmirched publicly. Intel obviously
has an impressive technical pool... if only it can be applied usefully.
Besides, we might need them to compete with AMD.:-)

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
 
George said:
Numbers were public for spot market trading in chips - they could not have
been making a profit. It showed in their profit & loss statements.

There is no product of the imagination that Western civilization could
produce as greater evidence of what is possible with human intellect
than a P&L.
I fail to see the relevance between Gates and Micron. Certainly little
guys should not be persecuted while big fish escape - justice is worth
pursuing but is not always realized... but the rule book should not be
thrown away or perverted with prejudice.

But the rule book is perverted with prejudice--against small players.
What litigation does is to turn those rules upside down, much as
guerilla tactics change the rules of warfare. Business is business and
warfare is warfare, but they are both examples of human beings playing
to win.

The memory mfrs are publicly owned companies

Like Enron?
and have a responsibility to
act accordingly in making deals and in their corporate behavior.

Like Enron.
It's a
fine line to walk when losing money.

Companies have a tendency to be making money when reporting to current
or potential lenders and investors and to be losing it when reporting to
the tax man or pleading poverty to get corporate welfare.

I know the dealings of only closely-held companies, for which the rules
are more relaxed, from first-hand experience. Profit is an amazingly
flexible number, especially if it is, for example, to be shared with
others. Ask anyone in the film business. Never accept a cut on net as
your part of the deal, no matter how good you think your auditor is.

As to prices, I believe most readily what I know from first-hand
experience. Even in a commodity industry, where prices move in a very
narrow range, everything important happens at the margins. A quarter
dollar per unit could be your net profit, when most prices move in a
well-known range twice that size.

Even if you're in a commodity business, you might have something that
isn't a commodity to sell that makes all those commodity sales worth the
bother. The commodity sales "lose" money, but they help to pay the
fixed costs, and the company can do nicely on a small part of the
business that no one pays attention to.
Billy and the Embalmer haven't been an interloper for a long long while and
it took a while for them to gain success... often due to the ineptitude of
their umm, collaborators and the competition.

So it's okay to be a bastard if you're big enough. I really find it
hard to believe that Bill Gates was ever anything more appealing than a
creepy little geek that people wouldn't have done business with if their
sense of niceness weren't so overwhelmed by their visions of wealth. As
to Steve Ballmer, I wonder how long he had to wait before he was given a
speaking role.
Rambus' ethics and goals are
a matter of record by even the judge who upheld their appeal against
Infineon.

And I have no doubt that whoever hears the current and any other
litigation will be hammered repeatedly with the judge's moralizing.
People who did everything they could to get into a top law school, then
did everything they could to get on law review, and then sucked up to
political hacks so they could get an appointment to the bench are
reliable moral arbiters now?

When the uhh "scrutinizer" is a bandit corp. run by and for shysters, whose
principal activity is confrontational litigation, it makes a difference
though.:-)

If you live long enough, you should eventually discover that, as Henry
Miller put it, all corpses stink. That is, there are no saints whose
bodies would miraculously be preserved after death.

I have my own ethics and standards, like everyone. Even a terrorist or
a mobster has ethics and standards.

At some point, I decided I would live longer and somewhat more at peace
if I just accepted that no one really cares all that much about what my
ethics and standards are and that most public posturing about such
things is just that--posturing.

For the longest time, I wasted energy pointing out the obvious
discrepancies between what people said and what they did. I'm free now.
I've just given up--except when someone presses the issue. ;-).

I don't like lawyers any more than you do. If I didn't have so many
other things on my mind, I might spend some time looking into the
history of entrepreneurial predatory litigation. I suspect the tactic
is as old as guerilla warfare.
No, no that was more cynical than empathy for Intel but it would be sad for
the industry in general to have them besmirched publicly. Intel obviously
has an impressive technical pool... if only it can be applied usefully.
Besides, we might need them to compete with AMD.:-)

Who knows. After a sufficient period of public ridicule and
humiliation, they might turn into the new IBM. ;-). Don't expect the
principals to turn into better people, though.

RM
 
KR Williams wrote:



Didn't say "bad" but I have to wonder how someone makes enough for a
$3,000,000 boat etc and made it "honestly". Sure some do but I doubt most
do.

Why do *you* care what anyone spends *their* money on. Who are
*YOU* to decide what's fair compensation. Good grief! I suppose
you're going to vote for Kerry, because he's somehow for the
little guy? Good grief, spare me your simple logic.

Sure, there are some crooks and there always will be. Catch the
bastards and filet them. To assume all "rich people" are crooks
is simply asinine!
 
George Macdonald wrote:
Like Enron?


Like Enron.

Comparing Micron et.al. to Enron? I hope things in business in general are
not as bad as that cynical view. I believe that Fastow and Skilling will
go to.... umm the same federal "farm" (holiday camp?) as Boesky... anyone
for tennis?... croquet?:-) Have you read this:
http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/bizfinance/columns/bottomline/n_9352/
Companies have a tendency to be making money when reporting to current
or potential lenders and investors and to be losing it when reporting to
the tax man or pleading poverty to get corporate welfare.

I know the dealings of only closely-held companies, for which the rules
are more relaxed, from first-hand experience. Profit is an amazingly
flexible number, especially if it is, for example, to be shared with
others. Ask anyone in the film business. Never accept a cut on net as
your part of the deal, no matter how good you think your auditor is.

Yeah, yeah - everybody gets screwed. Eventually you get the choice to lick
the boot or not.:-(
As to prices, I believe most readily what I know from first-hand
experience. Even in a commodity industry, where prices move in a very
narrow range, everything important happens at the margins. A quarter
dollar per unit could be your net profit, when most prices move in a
well-known range twice that size.

Even if you're in a commodity business, you might have something that
isn't a commodity to sell that makes all those commodity sales worth the
bother. The commodity sales "lose" money, but they help to pay the
fixed costs, and the company can do nicely on a small part of the
business that no one pays attention to.

I don't think there is the slightest doubt, however, that Micron was
bleeding red ink back in the time frame. Hyundai went under. Infineon
survived because of some corrupt dealings between the CE and the German
govt. to do with reviving E.Germany. What more evidence is needed?
So it's okay to be a bastard if you're big enough. I really find it
hard to believe that Bill Gates was ever anything more appealing than a
creepy little geek that people wouldn't have done business with if their
sense of niceness weren't so overwhelmed by their visions of wealth. As
to Steve Ballmer, I wonder how long he had to wait before he was given a
speaking role.

From what I've read, Bill Gates like to think of himself as a
programmer/system designer. Business people who've dealt with him and
people who analyze those kinds of things think he's really an astute
"intuitive" businessman. Whatever malfeasance he's indulged in I don't
think he's ever rounded up a bunch of legal vultures to hijack an
industry... I don't think he ever needed predatory VCs to get started and
their bagmen to do the business for him - he did it mostly himself in the
corporate culture he has cultivated... as bad as that is. Perceived
culpability counts.

As for Ballmer his credentials are umm, hazy - "studied" applied math at
Harvard??? Applied Math is hard, usually. All I can say that watching him
in action a few years at an OS/2 "pep rally" and at an Intel dog 'n' pony
show, both before he became a "personality", the word wretch comes to
mind... as applied to my gut reaction.
And I have no doubt that whoever hears the current and any other
litigation will be hammered repeatedly with the judge's moralizing.
People who did everything they could to get into a top law school, then
did everything they could to get on law review, and then sucked up to
political hacks so they could get an appointment to the bench are
reliable moral arbiters now?

When a judge rules legally in your favor and yet indicts your ethics
publicly on the record, I think it says *something*.
If you live long enough, you should eventually discover that, as Henry
Miller put it, all corpses stink. That is, there are no saints whose
bodies would miraculously be preserved after death.

The stench of corruption is particularly odious though.
Who knows. After a sufficient period of public ridicule and
humiliation, they might turn into the new IBM. ;-). Don't expect the
principals to turn into better people, though.

Principals change though - see Ruiz replacing Sanders at AMD which is a bit
of surprise, given how well his previous stewardship did. The same company
that IBM had to rescue AMD's tech blunders from. Intel's current CEO has
always come across to me like a shoe salesman... and he has governed some
umm, low points in the corporate history.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
 
George said:
Comparing Micron et.al. to Enron? I hope things in business in general are
not as bad as that cynical view. I believe that Fastow and Skilling will
go to.... umm the same federal "farm" (holiday camp?) as Boesky... anyone
for tennis?... croquet?:-) Have you read this:
http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/bizfinance/columns/bottomline/n_9352/

No, I hadn't. It's going to be really hard to persuade you of this, but
I really have decided that trying to make moral judgments from a
distance is pretty much a complete waste of time. Consider this:

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/content/?011217ta_talk_surowiecki

Maybe Michael Milken and Enron had it right, after all. How the hell
should I know? If _everybody_ knows something, such as that Milken and
Enron were irredeemable evil-does, then I am especially inclined to be
suspicious. I am extremely mistrustful of things that "everybody"
knows. In the end, it is more important to me to maintain the absolute
independence of my own opinion than it is to try to guess accurately
about who really was right in the Enron or Michael Milken affair.

Here, everybody seems to know that Rambus is the scum of the earth.
Meaning no offense to you or to anyone else, but I have just grown
hopelessly suspicious of high moral dudgeon of every kind (unless, of
course, it's _my_ high moral dudgeon ;-) ). You're going to have a hard
time moving me from that spot.
Yeah, yeah - everybody gets screwed. Eventually you get the choice to lick
the boot or not.:-(

I have known people courageously to decline to do the dirty work of
others in situations I felt close enough to to make my own moral
judgments without relying on the opinions of others. People don't
always chose servility, but "go along to get along" is the rule that
seems safest to count on people following.

On the other hand, a manager is an agent of the shareholders, and some
managers take their agency seriously. I suspect that your opinion of
how the principals at the commodity memory manufacturers would have
behaved in the situation under discussion is colored by your feelings
about how you would have behaved. That speaks well of you, but I am
unpersuaded. I will simply have to live with whatever that says about me.

I don't think there is the slightest doubt, however, that Micron was
bleeding red ink back in the time frame. Hyundai went under. Infineon
survived because of some corrupt dealings between the CE and the German
govt. to do with reviving E.Germany. What more evidence is needed?

In the end, whether I am convinced or not doesn't matter much. I think
it's a riot that one of the players got on corporate welfare.
From what I've read, Bill Gates like to think of himself as a
programmer/system designer. Business people who've dealt with him and
people who analyze those kinds of things think he's really an astute
"intuitive" businessman. Whatever malfeasance he's indulged in I don't
think he's ever rounded up a bunch of legal vultures to hijack an
industry... I don't think he ever needed predatory VCs to get started and
their bagmen to do the business for him - he did it mostly himself in the
corporate culture he has cultivated... as bad as that is. Perceived
culpability counts.

In your universe, but not in mine. I don't give a fig what the rest of
the world thinks of Bill Gates. I'll form my own opinion on my own if I
am to have one. In the case of Bill Gates, I do have an opinion. It's
more complicated than what I've stated, but it is 100% my own concoction.

In the Rambus affair, I simply decline to make an opinion. I am as
inclined to think that the judge who hammered the Rambus principals is a
moral leper as I would be to think that of anyone else involved. How
should I know? I don't know any of them.
As for Ballmer his credentials are umm, hazy - "studied" applied math at
Harvard??? Applied Math is hard, usually. All I can say that watching him
in action a few years at an OS/2 "pep rally" and at an Intel dog 'n' pony
show, both before he became a "personality", the word wretch comes to
mind... as applied to my gut reaction.

Steve Ballmer may be a sad case, but I'm not going to work my empathy
engine overtime for him. Bill and Steve between them have made great
strides in business and marketing and, in my judgment, did so at a
stupefyingly high cost to a legacy they didn't deserve to inherit and
did much to squander. Software will only heal when and if they are
pushed off the stage, along with the company they founded. That's my
high moral dudgeon. By comparison, l'affaire Rambus is nothing.

Principals change though - see Ruiz replacing Sanders at AMD which is a bit
of surprise, given how well his previous stewardship did. The same company
that IBM had to rescue AMD's tech blunders from. Intel's current CEO has
always come across to me like a shoe salesman... and he has governed some
umm, low points in the corporate history.

I don't know who really minds the store at Intel, but it is plain that
it is a company that is run with a firm hand. My dealings with Intel
have been satisfactory, I like the support they have provided, I like
the way they look at the world, I like the way they present themselves,
and I think that without them we'd all still be under IBM's thumb.
That's a minority opinion in this particular group, many people have
left Intel feeling very resentful toward their former employer, and I
could be as wrong about Intel and Microsoft as "everybody" might or
might not be about Enron.

RM
 
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